G
guanophore
Guest
Welcome to CAF Walt. I hope you will visit the library here, so you can find some good material on what Catholics believe.
If you are a Christian, what is the real reason for you not being a Catholic? - 3
- Status
A
agnostic
Guest
To answer the original question, the reason I’m not, and wouldn’t be a catholic, if I was to be of any religion at all, is, off the top of my head and in no particular order:
Catholics love the word ‘‘hate’’. I’ve been accused of hating the church and hating men and hating catholics because of my opinions. So it seems to me if you don’t agree with catholics, catholics think you must be full of hate.
I hate the word hate
and it’s too emotionally crippling. I hate noone and nothing. I dislike lots and disagree with even more, but ‘‘Hate’’ 
Never.
Catholics attack women that they see as strong and independent and get out of their box. Witness the on-line petition against the feminist theologian currently running.
Catholicism is just waaaay to confusing. You guys seem to make it up as you go along. One minute someone is in grave mortal sin, next minute bam, they’re forgiven. They they’re in grave mortal sin again, then bam, they’re forgiven. Ad infinitum. It’s just crazy.
You cannot decide what is a sin and what isn’t a sin. I’ve been reading the hysterically funny threads on masturbation. I mean, come on
You have lots of stuff that just smacks of mumbo jumbo to me - holy water, statues, scapulars, indulgences, beads, etc.
It’s unbearably oppressive.
It likes to keep women in their place.
It failed to deal effectively with abuse and tried it’s darndest to cover it up.
There’s just way to many rules and regulations.
These are my impressions. I know little or nothing about the faith and know even less about other faiths. But I thought I’d take part in the thread and have a go at answering the question anyhow
Catholics love the word ‘‘hate’’. I’ve been accused of hating the church and hating men and hating catholics because of my opinions. So it seems to me if you don’t agree with catholics, catholics think you must be full of hate.
I hate the word hate
and it’s too emotionally crippling. I hate noone and nothing. I dislike lots and disagree with even more, but ‘‘Hate’’ Never.Catholics attack women that they see as strong and independent and get out of their box. Witness the on-line petition against the feminist theologian currently running.
Catholicism is just waaaay to confusing. You guys seem to make it up as you go along. One minute someone is in grave mortal sin, next minute bam, they’re forgiven. They they’re in grave mortal sin again, then bam, they’re forgiven. Ad infinitum. It’s just crazy.
You cannot decide what is a sin and what isn’t a sin. I’ve been reading the hysterically funny threads on masturbation. I mean, come on
You have lots of stuff that just smacks of mumbo jumbo to me - holy water, statues, scapulars, indulgences, beads, etc.
It’s unbearably oppressive.
It likes to keep women in their place.
It failed to deal effectively with abuse and tried it’s darndest to cover it up.
There’s just way to many rules and regulations.
These are my impressions. I know little or nothing about the faith and know even less about other faiths. But I thought I’d take part in the thread and have a go at answering the question anyhow
A
agnostic
Guest
Oh, and I should also add, some of the posters on here
I would certainly hope that I would NEVER need their help in any real life situation. Apart from being overcome from the fumes of their self - righteous arrogance and self importance, they’d most likely beat me to death with their bibles and vatican documents that actually help me
It must be wonderful for them being so high up on the moral highground - shame that they’re out of reach of a small dose of humility and charity
I would certainly hope that I would NEVER need their help in any real life situation. Apart from being overcome from the fumes of their self - righteous arrogance and self importance, they’d most likely beat me to death with their bibles and vatican documents that actually help me
It must be wonderful for them being so high up on the moral highground - shame that they’re out of reach of a small dose of humility and charity
R
rlg94086
Guest
That is a little hypocritical on your part. Here is of the first posts you made on CAF:Oh, and I should also add, some of the posters on here
I would certainly hope that I would NEVER need their help in any real life situation. Apart from being overcome from the fumes of their self - righteous arrogance and self importance, they’d most likely beat me to death with their bibles and vatican documents that actually help me
It must be wonderful for them being so high up on the moral highground - shame that they’re out of reach of a small dose of humility and charity
Coming onto a Catholic forum and blasting Catholics, the priesthood and saying that our belief that the killing of innocent unborn is BS is hardly “humble and charitable.”
I hope you will learn about the faith, so you can have an informed reason to either accept or reject the Catholic Church, rather than just going off of the anti-Catholic stuff you have picked up from the secular world.
A
agnostic
Guest
I joined in a discussion that was taking place and listed, in my view, a series of people who undermine the fabric of society, and highlighted it was not women, nor women who have abortions. What is hypocritical in that My statement was also not uncharitable, rather factual. And I humbly stated my opinion, not arrogantly I couldn’t find the humility and charity emoticon to express I was speaking humbly and charitably
I’ve had two books recommended to me which I’ve ordered from Amazon, and someone have given me a link for some other stuff to read
Here’s what you said to me:
You’re top of my list of catholics that are banned from helping me in any real life situation. I couldn’t cope with your inflated self importance, self righteousness and patronising arrogance.
R
rlg94086
Guest
I have my faults, but I didn’t go onto a forum and admonish others for a lack of humility and charity after insulting them.You’re top of my list of catholics that are banned from helping me in any real life situation. I couldn’t cope with your inflated self importance, self righteousness and patronising arrogance.
I responded based on your posts starting with the one I quoted, and I invite anyone to go the thread to see how and what you posted to see whether I overreacted.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4095129&postcount=147
Despite the vitriole of your posts, I would still help you in a real life situation. I’m glad you are checking out the Catholic Church. It is the source of Truth, and if you open your heart to Our Lord, He will bless you in innumerable ways.
L
Leeann
Guest
Hi James…have viewed your last post and will respond asap…it was a big one…and I have to go through it thoughtfully.
I was stunned to see all the posts that came in after your last one …so I didn’t want you to think that I got lost in the crowd!
I was stunned to see all the posts that came in after your last one …so I didn’t want you to think that I got lost in the crowd!
C
Cinette
Guest
That’s it! Just your impressions and you know little or nothing about the Faith…That’s it!. YOU said it!To answer the original question, the reason I’m not, and wouldn’t be a catholic, if I was to be of any religion at all, is, off the top of my head and in no particular order:
**
These are my impressions.** I know little or nothing about the faith and know even less about other faiths. But I thought I’d take part in the thread and have a go at answering the question anyhow
I can see that there may be many things that confuse you at first sight. It makes sense that you should frown and say “this is not for me”!!! But keep an open mind and look and listen.
There is a book which you will certainly enjoy reading and it will blow your mind! “How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization” by Thomas E Woods Jr Phd. An excellent read. The author is a convert. This book may not convert you (one never knows what does!!) but it is extremely informative and interesting. I do thoroughly recommend it.
You know I lived with a man who was worse than you - he was athiest for many years. Mys husband! The last thing I ever imagined was that he would one day become Catholic. I never tried to convert him. First it was believing in God and this was thru a Jew and then a lot of reading (and coming with me to Mass) and then…BUMBA! He took the plunge! What can I say!! When you find the Lord you will be surprised because God is full of surprises.
I hope you enjoy interacting here and the fact that you hate the word hate is terrific. You are Christian already - you just don’t know it!!!
Now I am going to read the other posts and expect to be surprised!!
Cheers
M
Matariel
Guest
I would help you in a situation of need, Agnostic… :console:Oh, and I should also add, some of the posters on here
I would certainly hope that I would NEVER need their help in any real life situation. Apart from being overcome from the fumes of their self - righteous arrogance and self importance, they’d most likely beat me to death with their bibles and vatican documents that actually help me
It must be wonderful for them being so high up on the moral highground - shame that they’re out of reach of a small dose of humility and charity
And, I think you think a lot of the Catholic sacramentals as “mumbo-jumbo” because you don’t know Catholic sacramental theology, and about the other Catholic issues too I think you may not understand.Catholic practices are ancient, many going back 1500 to 2000 years. Catholic sacramentals add to the beauty of Catholic worship.
Anyway, I just didn’t want you to feel bad, Agnostic. :hug3:
Everyone better treat you nicely! If not, just PM me.
L
Leeann
Guest
Post #265 CentralFJames
So if you don’t have the time to devote to intellectually honest dialog then why waste your time at all; and why waste ours or even take the time to speak for others with assertions you won’t substantiate? Non-value added dialog is not helping to advance yourself, me, or anyone else.
Please keep the above statement in mind as you read further posts by CentralFJames
**James: I have cut and posted only a few of your statements, assumptions and comments from your last post and will attempt to respond to these…as to most of the other ramblings of your last posts… I don’t consider them to be an example of “intellectually honest dialog” and can only respond by asking that you take to heart your own words as are expressed above.
The “Non-value”…part in particular would be nice.
Okay here we go:**
Post 267 Central FJames:
Some of us Catholics are actually trying to make some positive progress in helping non-catholics work through at least the parts of their belief formation that don’t reconcile with logic and rational thought.
Response: Leeann
Did it ever occur to you that the reason “their belief formation” doesn’t reconcile with the catholic belief formation is because what you consider and displayed to be “logic and rational thought” just simply isn’t…
Post 271 CentralFJames:
Let’s assume that there are only 2 valid Christian sacraments instead of the 7 that Catholics have (Baptism and Marriage [BTW as an aside, note the interesting similarity here of Protestants 2 sacraments to the 2 horned creature that “appears” as a lamb in Revelations 5:6 vs. the true 7 horned/eyed lamb in revelations 5:6 - see any similarity to the currently competing Christian “lambs” ? ]). This sacramental metric, if Protestants have it right should set a lower limit of 28% of proper teaching correctness on a sacramental assumption (2 out of 7) basis that Protestants “got it right” and Catholics are wrong.
Response: Leeann
Suggest you re-read Rev 5:6vs – no “2 horned creature “appears” as a lamb??
It’s not a question of Prots vs Caths – although you seem determined to keep focusing on this -not any one denomination or faith has the ability to claim to have it “all right” – it is only by His power, His authority, His Will and His Grace that His truth will always be made evident and validated as being true, by the power of the Holy Spirit…and that is in spite of all our pitiful and presumptuous “human endeavors” of anyone who “claims authority” over ownership of His Word. My faith is not based on any denomination/or church’s claimed reasoning or assumed authority that they have the true interpretation of His Word (bible as we know it) – my faith is in His power and His ability to make known His truth – to make it stand out from anything false that anyone tries to do to contaminate it. He is God…we can’t contain His power or presume to contain His holy and inspired “truths”…nobody can.
Post 271 CentralFJames
As they say, the best way to compliment an Author is to read his works then plagiarize them as if they were one’s own works. That pretty much tells us that Protestants clearly thought Catholics were the only recognized Christians through the period.
Response:Leeann
No – not at all. What it clearly indicates is that the Protestants at that time were allowed by His grace to recognize and discern what was truly of God and what was truly inspired and acted accordingly. (Not just in relation to “the bible” then, but how it was being interpreted and translated into “traditions” within the “Church” at that time.) The fact that they then splintered into opposing (in some cases) and various denominations, isn’t a reflection on God’s Truth….but a reflection on their own human natures and desires…something many Cardinals and Bishops and Popes have succumbed too as well throughout history….because they are “human”. As for the “plagiarizing” comment…hmmm…that’s a very brazen one to be thrown out, it doesn’t cast a very good light on where the “Catholics” originally got the scriptures from in the first place, and slights the intentions and purpose of the people whom God chose to labor over and bring it into an orderly fashion, with the skills of their days and the resources of their minds, under the influence and guidance of the Holy Spirit. Does that surprise you?
That I believe that no one, nobody, no organization, or any other “power of this world” is great enough to thwart God’s Will or God’s divine authority by attempting to take His Word…His divinely inspired scriptures and declare that they have not only “given” the world His truth, but have the sole authority of being able to discern and define His truth.
He will use whomever He chooses to bring about His divine plan and in whatever way He chooses to do it….and by whatever resources He chooses to use…and at whatever time He chooses. I for one am thankful that for the skills and faithfulness that these people possessed and that by His grace and power were allowed to accumulate and produce His Word. (the bible)
Their intentions and the desires of their hearts and their spirit and who they ultimately invested their deposit of faith in, will be His to judge and reward as He sees fit.
(Apologies to everyone …just one more posting needed in order to respond)
So if you don’t have the time to devote to intellectually honest dialog then why waste your time at all; and why waste ours or even take the time to speak for others with assertions you won’t substantiate? Non-value added dialog is not helping to advance yourself, me, or anyone else.
Please keep the above statement in mind as you read further posts by CentralFJames
**James: I have cut and posted only a few of your statements, assumptions and comments from your last post and will attempt to respond to these…as to most of the other ramblings of your last posts… I don’t consider them to be an example of “intellectually honest dialog” and can only respond by asking that you take to heart your own words as are expressed above.
The “Non-value”…part in particular would be nice.
Okay here we go:**
Post 267 Central FJames:
Some of us Catholics are actually trying to make some positive progress in helping non-catholics work through at least the parts of their belief formation that don’t reconcile with logic and rational thought.
Response: Leeann
Did it ever occur to you that the reason “their belief formation” doesn’t reconcile with the catholic belief formation is because what you consider and displayed to be “logic and rational thought” just simply isn’t…
Post 271 CentralFJames:
Let’s assume that there are only 2 valid Christian sacraments instead of the 7 that Catholics have (Baptism and Marriage [BTW as an aside, note the interesting similarity here of Protestants 2 sacraments to the 2 horned creature that “appears” as a lamb in Revelations 5:6 vs. the true 7 horned/eyed lamb in revelations 5:6 - see any similarity to the currently competing Christian “lambs” ? ]). This sacramental metric, if Protestants have it right should set a lower limit of 28% of proper teaching correctness on a sacramental assumption (2 out of 7) basis that Protestants “got it right” and Catholics are wrong.
Response: Leeann
Suggest you re-read Rev 5:6vs – no “2 horned creature “appears” as a lamb??
It’s not a question of Prots vs Caths – although you seem determined to keep focusing on this -not any one denomination or faith has the ability to claim to have it “all right” – it is only by His power, His authority, His Will and His Grace that His truth will always be made evident and validated as being true, by the power of the Holy Spirit…and that is in spite of all our pitiful and presumptuous “human endeavors” of anyone who “claims authority” over ownership of His Word. My faith is not based on any denomination/or church’s claimed reasoning or assumed authority that they have the true interpretation of His Word (bible as we know it) – my faith is in His power and His ability to make known His truth – to make it stand out from anything false that anyone tries to do to contaminate it. He is God…we can’t contain His power or presume to contain His holy and inspired “truths”…nobody can.
Post 271 CentralFJames
As they say, the best way to compliment an Author is to read his works then plagiarize them as if they were one’s own works. That pretty much tells us that Protestants clearly thought Catholics were the only recognized Christians through the period.
Response:Leeann
No – not at all. What it clearly indicates is that the Protestants at that time were allowed by His grace to recognize and discern what was truly of God and what was truly inspired and acted accordingly. (Not just in relation to “the bible” then, but how it was being interpreted and translated into “traditions” within the “Church” at that time.) The fact that they then splintered into opposing (in some cases) and various denominations, isn’t a reflection on God’s Truth….but a reflection on their own human natures and desires…something many Cardinals and Bishops and Popes have succumbed too as well throughout history….because they are “human”. As for the “plagiarizing” comment…hmmm…that’s a very brazen one to be thrown out, it doesn’t cast a very good light on where the “Catholics” originally got the scriptures from in the first place, and slights the intentions and purpose of the people whom God chose to labor over and bring it into an orderly fashion, with the skills of their days and the resources of their minds, under the influence and guidance of the Holy Spirit. Does that surprise you?
That I believe that no one, nobody, no organization, or any other “power of this world” is great enough to thwart God’s Will or God’s divine authority by attempting to take His Word…His divinely inspired scriptures and declare that they have not only “given” the world His truth, but have the sole authority of being able to discern and define His truth.
He will use whomever He chooses to bring about His divine plan and in whatever way He chooses to do it….and by whatever resources He chooses to use…and at whatever time He chooses. I for one am thankful that for the skills and faithfulness that these people possessed and that by His grace and power were allowed to accumulate and produce His Word. (the bible)
Their intentions and the desires of their hearts and their spirit and who they ultimately invested their deposit of faith in, will be His to judge and reward as He sees fit.
(Apologies to everyone …just one more posting needed in order to respond)
L
Leeann
Guest
(continuation of posting to CentralFJames)
Originally Posted by Leeann
(Trent), unless of course the Catholic Church needed these uninspired books to bolster up a lot of the false teachings that it had been gathering along the way)
Post 271 CentralFJames:
So are you asserting that Catholics from the very start of Christianity in the very first apostolic Church were using false teachings and the apostles, in particular St. Peter, all broke from Christ to teach a false religion? Interesting theory, do you have any evidence of this? Can you be specific about what false teachings you are talking about? And while you are at it can you please enlighten me how you know they were false teachings without personally knowing a single apostolic successor like Catholics do?
Response: Leeann
In relation to a portion of a statement I made and that you posted, (above) you somehow managed to draw a “theory” – of YOUR own – from it, and then imply that it was MY theory saying that all the apostles and Peter and the “believers” of that time were using false doctrine…… When in actuality, you can see that my posting was referring to a comment you previously made regarding how the “Prots” removed questionable books from the “bible” in order to validate their departure from the RCChurch…I was in my responding post, pointing out another viewpoint – (Trent) means The Council of Trent in the 1500’s – NOT anywhere close to the very start of Christianity…and their officially accepting these questionable books at that point in order to validate the false teachings that had been gathering over the years up to then (and some after).
.
Post 268 CentralFJames
Give me real honest and sound theological justification for judging that the Catholic Church is only about 90% accurate and also admit that Protestants essentially created a whole new religion in the 1500s.
Response Leeann
Again James – this “90 %” accurate thing is of YOUR understanding, based on YOUR formula….I don’t agree that the CC is “90%” accurate.
Post 271 CentralFJames
After all, Protestants saw fit to keep 90% of what Catholics hold as inspired scripture
Response Leeann:
Yes….by God’s grace …by His power….His truth…the divinely, inspired parts shone through!
Post 271 CentralFJames
Don’t you agree that it’s just proper and descent to give the benefit of the doubt before indicting a possibly innocent person for crimes (having it all wrong) with nothing but circumstantial evidence and hearsay to go on?
Response Leeann:
I guess it depends on what you would consider to be circumstantial evidence and hearsay….I don’t consider God’s Word and His promises and instructions in it to be circumstantial evidence or hearsay, do you?
Post 271 CentralFJames
So maybe the modern post Protestant Reformation Churches (which BTW NONE of the reformers would even recognize today as teaching the same faiths they had)
Response Leeann:
I agree with you…as is the case with the RCChurch in comparison to the early Christian church of the Apostles)…. are not so far removed from
Post 271 CentralFJames
The evidence does not suggest that this speculation has any merit. If the King Jimmy bible (KJV) is the objective standard then why are there so many different Protestant beliefs and teachings if the standard self-teaching bible is the rule of faith?
Response Leeann:
Because no one is infallible – God’s word doesn’t need US to validate His truth – IT is true – IT’s truth will survive no matter how or what we attempt to do to alter it or make it fit into ANY of our agendas….what WE do with it, is what we will all have to answer for, no matter what “faith” or “denomination” we adhere too.
Post 271 CentralFJames
Is bondage to erroneous free interpretation supposed to be better than bondage to a Church interpretation that we Catholics hold to be true?
Response Leeann:
No – I’d say bondage to erroneous free interpretation would be pretty fruitless….however if you humbly and faithfully believe what Peter said :
Acts 2: 38 vs “Then Peter said to them, But Peter said to them: Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39/ For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all that are far off, whomsoever the Lord our God shall call. (Douay Rheims from www.theworkofgod.org )
As for the bondage to a Church interpretation that “you” Catholics hold to be true – you’d be wise to accept and believe Peter’s words – the promise is to “you”…and to as many as the Lord our God will call.” …not just to the church’s interpretation because you are in bondage to a church….but because by His Blood you and your belief in HIM… this is your promise too.
How do we bring this back to the topic of this thread…
This is the reason that I am a Christian and not a Catholic.
God Bless
Originally Posted by Leeann
(Trent), unless of course the Catholic Church needed these uninspired books to bolster up a lot of the false teachings that it had been gathering along the way)
Post 271 CentralFJames:
So are you asserting that Catholics from the very start of Christianity in the very first apostolic Church were using false teachings and the apostles, in particular St. Peter, all broke from Christ to teach a false religion? Interesting theory, do you have any evidence of this? Can you be specific about what false teachings you are talking about? And while you are at it can you please enlighten me how you know they were false teachings without personally knowing a single apostolic successor like Catholics do?
Response: Leeann
In relation to a portion of a statement I made and that you posted, (above) you somehow managed to draw a “theory” – of YOUR own – from it, and then imply that it was MY theory saying that all the apostles and Peter and the “believers” of that time were using false doctrine…… When in actuality, you can see that my posting was referring to a comment you previously made regarding how the “Prots” removed questionable books from the “bible” in order to validate their departure from the RCChurch…I was in my responding post, pointing out another viewpoint – (Trent) means The Council of Trent in the 1500’s – NOT anywhere close to the very start of Christianity…and their officially accepting these questionable books at that point in order to validate the false teachings that had been gathering over the years up to then (and some after).
.
Post 268 CentralFJames
Give me real honest and sound theological justification for judging that the Catholic Church is only about 90% accurate and also admit that Protestants essentially created a whole new religion in the 1500s.
Response Leeann
Again James – this “90 %” accurate thing is of YOUR understanding, based on YOUR formula….I don’t agree that the CC is “90%” accurate.
Post 271 CentralFJames
After all, Protestants saw fit to keep 90% of what Catholics hold as inspired scripture
Response Leeann:
Yes….by God’s grace …by His power….His truth…the divinely, inspired parts shone through!
Post 271 CentralFJames
Don’t you agree that it’s just proper and descent to give the benefit of the doubt before indicting a possibly innocent person for crimes (having it all wrong) with nothing but circumstantial evidence and hearsay to go on?
Response Leeann:
I guess it depends on what you would consider to be circumstantial evidence and hearsay….I don’t consider God’s Word and His promises and instructions in it to be circumstantial evidence or hearsay, do you?
Post 271 CentralFJames
So maybe the modern post Protestant Reformation Churches (which BTW NONE of the reformers would even recognize today as teaching the same faiths they had)
Response Leeann:
I agree with you…as is the case with the RCChurch in comparison to the early Christian church of the Apostles)…. are not so far removed from
Post 271 CentralFJames
The evidence does not suggest that this speculation has any merit. If the King Jimmy bible (KJV) is the objective standard then why are there so many different Protestant beliefs and teachings if the standard self-teaching bible is the rule of faith?
Response Leeann:
Because no one is infallible – God’s word doesn’t need US to validate His truth – IT is true – IT’s truth will survive no matter how or what we attempt to do to alter it or make it fit into ANY of our agendas….what WE do with it, is what we will all have to answer for, no matter what “faith” or “denomination” we adhere too.
Post 271 CentralFJames
Is bondage to erroneous free interpretation supposed to be better than bondage to a Church interpretation that we Catholics hold to be true?
Response Leeann:
No – I’d say bondage to erroneous free interpretation would be pretty fruitless….however if you humbly and faithfully believe what Peter said :
Acts 2: 38 vs “Then Peter said to them, But Peter said to them: Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39/ For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all that are far off, whomsoever the Lord our God shall call. (Douay Rheims from www.theworkofgod.org )
As for the bondage to a Church interpretation that “you” Catholics hold to be true – you’d be wise to accept and believe Peter’s words – the promise is to “you”…and to as many as the Lord our God will call.” …not just to the church’s interpretation because you are in bondage to a church….but because by His Blood you and your belief in HIM… this is your promise too.
How do we bring this back to the topic of this thread…
This is the reason that I am a Christian and not a Catholic.
God Bless
C
CentralFLJames
Guest
Leeann, when are you going to say something substantial and stop dancing around the questions I asked you and cease being evasive?
I am simply going to disengage further dialog with you in this topic. Further dialog is pointless. If the quality of your rhetoric was even worthwhile it might be worth further engaging - buts its not. You simply lack the ability to communicate rationally, objectively and cogently. You are mixing different posts from prior discussions and not making any sense at all. You keep making personal statements and accusations against the Catholic Church then when you are called on it you try to put it on God’s shoulders; and then try to present yourself as God’s advocate and just an objective observer who is immune to fallibility and error - since God’s word is self evident. Pleeeeease… do you think a single person here buys into what you are trying to say?
I spent considerable time making cogent arguments and giving you dozens of scriptural references and you did not respond to a single one of them and instead went down a rabbit-hole of hyperbole and subjective obfuscation on a few minor points.
I asked you for specific cases of teaching error - and all you could do is say God’s truth is self evident. If that is all you can say then kindly stop spewing contempt for Catholics and Catholic teaching all over these forums if you can’t even express what it is that you abhor about true Apostolic teaching. Just the facts please…
If you learn nothing else useful in these forums at least please learn how to use the quote button properly. It’s getting extremely difficult trying to decipher your ever changing color code and deal with all the cutting and pasting of old posts out of the original temporal context and sequence.
Leeann, the reason you are not Catholic is because you don’t have a clue what it is Catholics believe. Nor do you seem to have the wherewithal to even express yourself non-defensively and objectively or make a single objective case against anything The Catholic Church teaches.
You can call yourself “Christian” thinking to differentiate and distance yourself from Catholics. **But I assure you Leeann that if you strive to find refuge through smug differentiation a day will come for you when you will woefully regret that you have chosen to make a distinction and hold The Catholic Church in contempt. ** Do you imagine that God will let The Catholic Church extend our prayers, masses and petitions for you at your hour of death if He knows you abhor His Church? I am not kidding Leeann… this is a grave matter.
“Not all who call me Lord Lord will enter my Kingdom”
“Those that reject you (church leadership) reject me”.
James
I am simply going to disengage further dialog with you in this topic. Further dialog is pointless. If the quality of your rhetoric was even worthwhile it might be worth further engaging - buts its not. You simply lack the ability to communicate rationally, objectively and cogently. You are mixing different posts from prior discussions and not making any sense at all. You keep making personal statements and accusations against the Catholic Church then when you are called on it you try to put it on God’s shoulders; and then try to present yourself as God’s advocate and just an objective observer who is immune to fallibility and error - since God’s word is self evident. Pleeeeease… do you think a single person here buys into what you are trying to say?
I spent considerable time making cogent arguments and giving you dozens of scriptural references and you did not respond to a single one of them and instead went down a rabbit-hole of hyperbole and subjective obfuscation on a few minor points.
I asked you for specific cases of teaching error - and all you could do is say God’s truth is self evident. If that is all you can say then kindly stop spewing contempt for Catholics and Catholic teaching all over these forums if you can’t even express what it is that you abhor about true Apostolic teaching. Just the facts please…
If you learn nothing else useful in these forums at least please learn how to use the quote button properly. It’s getting extremely difficult trying to decipher your ever changing color code and deal with all the cutting and pasting of old posts out of the original temporal context and sequence.
Leeann, the reason you are not Catholic is because you don’t have a clue what it is Catholics believe. Nor do you seem to have the wherewithal to even express yourself non-defensively and objectively or make a single objective case against anything The Catholic Church teaches.
You can call yourself “Christian” thinking to differentiate and distance yourself from Catholics. **But I assure you Leeann that if you strive to find refuge through smug differentiation a day will come for you when you will woefully regret that you have chosen to make a distinction and hold The Catholic Church in contempt. ** Do you imagine that God will let The Catholic Church extend our prayers, masses and petitions for you at your hour of death if He knows you abhor His Church? I am not kidding Leeann… this is a grave matter.
“Not all who call me Lord Lord will enter my Kingdom”
“Those that reject you (church leadership) reject me”.
James
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celticcrusader
Guest
WELL SAID. I find it sad, that if some one is told a misrepresentation of truth long enough they believe it is the truth even if history proves otherwise, I have this problem with JW friends of mine some of whom are ex-Catholic] they are dead serious [pun] that they have the truth, they will not not look at anything else but THIER truth, history dosen’t matter. So I guess people are the same no matter where you are.
C
CentralFLJames
Guest
I will respond to this one since I made a typo on the scripture reference verse number. The comparison I made between the 2 horned beast that is a false lamb vs. the true 7 horned lamb is right out of scripture. I thought it was an interesting observation that Protestants have only 2 of the 7 sacraments and try to project themselves as true Christians and there is explicit warning right here in scripture that just because something looks like a Christian lamb it is clearly not always of God and is 5 horns short of the real thing.
Revelations 5:6
6And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.
Revelations 13:11-12
11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; **and he had two horns like a lamb **and he spoke as a dragon. 12He exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence And he makes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed.
James
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Cinette
Guest
Lee-Ann!
I tried to read your post but gave up. You are hysterical and you might re-read the Gospels and all of the NT for that matter before you consider yourself able and competent to engage in dialogue in matters of this nature.
I came on these forums to learn but people like you just spew hatred for the Catholic Church at every opportunity.
Jesus told us to love - you seem to forget that.
:yup:
I tried to read your post but gave up. You are hysterical and you might re-read the Gospels and all of the NT for that matter before you consider yourself able and competent to engage in dialogue in matters of this nature.
I came on these forums to learn but people like you just spew hatred for the Catholic Church at every opportunity.
Jesus told us to love - you seem to forget that.
:yup:
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Leeann
Guest
Hello CinetteLee-Ann!
I tried to read your post but gave up. You are hysterical and you might re-read the Gospels and all of the NT for that matter before you consider yourself able and competent to engage in dialogue in matters of this nature.
I came on these forums to learn but people like you just spew hatred for the Catholic Church at every opportunity.
Jesus told us to love - you seem to forget that.
Perhaps the “hysterical” is in your “reading” of my post, as I assure you, I was very calm as I keyed in my responses to the questions. I can understand that the responses themselves may not have been to your liking, but I assure you, I was very composed when typing them in.
The other thing perhaps is the colouring of my text…as CentralFJames pointed out…it seemed to distract his concentration also, as he indicated in his first line back to me that I hadn’t answered his questions…?..perhaps the colours blinded him.
The only reason I did it that way, is that I am still trying to get the “yellow quote” boxes working…and have just succeeded with at least getting the whole of a posting done…but not just a line or two. I’ll work at it.
I’m sorry that my answers upset you so much, that was not my intention, I was responding as honestly and clearly as I could - considering the convulated way that the questions were posed and in all honesty, my responses were much less “barbed and sarcastic” than the questions were themselves.
ie: CentralFJames referring to the KJV as “King Jimmy Bible”
In my response, when quoting scripture, I made a point of quoting from the Douay Rheims version - even posting the Catholic Website where I got it from.
As far as “spewing hatred for the Catholic Church at every opportunity” - …I dislike **any **institution that tries to usurp God’s authority, teaching false doctrines and binding those in their membership in useless man made tradtitions…in order for them to obtain salvation.
Jesus told us to love…I haven’t forgotten that…I dislike the “institution” …I love the “members” that’s why I’m here to answer “Why, as a Christian, I would not become a Catholic”.
The question itself is a “loaded” one - one would realize that surely by asking it.
R
Reformed
Guest
I am not Catholic because it is extremely difficult to find the living Christ in Catholic theology. In addition, the gospel of God’s grace is not proclaimed in Catholic theology. I also find that Catholic theology creates many religous idols of the heart, hindering a growing affection for God alone. When you stack all of Sacred Tradition next to the Holy Bible, by pure volumne of Sacred Tradition, the Holy Bible make-up about 1% or so of the Catholic Faith. Thanks for asking the question, requesting a candid answer.
C
Cinette
Guest
Hello Cinette
Perhaps the “hysterical” is in your “reading” of my post, as I assure you, I was very calm as I keyed in my responses to the questions. I can understand that the responses themselves may not have been to your liking, but I assure you, I was very composed when typing them in. You may be physically composed but your thoughts are a mish mash. Your arguments are not convincing.
The other thing perhaps is the colouring of my textwell you have to admit that it was a KALAMAZOO! and somewhat distracting but that part is not serious…as CentralFJames pointed out…it seemed to distract his concentration also, as he indicated in his first line back to me that I hadn’t answered his questions…?..perhaps the colours blinded him.
The only reason I did it that way, is that I am still trying to get the “yellow quote” boxes working…and have just succeeded with at least getting the whole of a posting done…but not just a line or two. I’ll work at it.
I’m sorry that my answers upset you so much, that was not my intention, I was responding as honestly and clearly as I couldI know my Faith well enough to recognise how off the track you are - considering the convulated way that the questions were posed and in all honesty, my responses were much less “barbed and sarcastic” than the questions were themselves. I accept that you may be sincere but your accusations are innacurate and offensive
ie: CentralFJames referring to the KJV as "King Jimmy Bible"That is silly. Actually I like some of the KJV - it is poetic in part. Not a bad translation. But then, I am a revert to the CC and I consider myself a novice in the Faith. I take comfort that Jesus said we must be childlike.
In my response, when quoting scripture, I made a point of quoting from the Douay Rheims version - even posting the Catholic Website where I got it from.I am sure you made an effort but one “feels” the antagonism. I also see that James gets extremely irritated.
As far as “spewing hatred for the Catholic Church at every opportunity” - …I dislike **any **institution that tries to usurp God’s authorityThat is HUGELY inaccurate - in fact it is a lie!, teaching false doctrines OUCHand binding those in their membership in useless man made tradtitions you should read the NT carefully and without prejudice…in order for them to obtain salvation. Nonsense - I feel like using a very descriptive Afrikaans word here but instead I will
Jesus told us to love…I haven’t forgotten that…I dislike the “institution” …I love the “members” that’s why I’m here to answer “Why, as a Christian, I would not become a Catholic”. Well, didn’t He give us free choice. I don’t think if you disregard the Catholic Church you will be condemned - you just limit yourself that’s all :crying:
The question itself is a “loaded” one - one would realize that surely by asking it.
:yawn:
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mikew262
Guest
Many say that about us Catholics.
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CentralFLJames
Guest
Hi Reformed. Have you actually looked at and tried to read or study the Catholic Catechism? I admit that there is a LOT of information in there but its very well organized and I think you could discover the most important concepts in a few hours of scanning - certainly in a day or two of casual reading.
You can read it here: CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
If you were to look at actual teaching you will note that virtually every sentence or major instruction has a cross reference or footnote to specific Gospel passages and to major theological writings. As well there are references to saints and bishops writings as well as dogmatic proclamations from our popes - themselves all thoroughly cross referenced from scripture. The Catholic Church is the most thoroughly scripturally integrative faith on the planet. No other so called “church” in Christendom comes remotely close the the level of scriptural/biblical support, apostolic teaching and scholarship as the Catholic Church.
You mentioned you can’t find the Living Christ in Catholic Theology? Wow - amazing. We Catholics are perhaps the ONLY faith that firmly attests that Jesus IS the LIVING WORD. This is why Catholics are a Christ Centered Faith. We are not a biblically centered faith since we know that Jesus as the Living Word of God IS living and breathing scripture. We revere and worship Christ - the bible is our inspiration. It is only through the written word of His Prophets and His Apostles and their teaching tradition that we Catholics KNOW the MAN Jesus as a living and breathing brother. Christ is IS God’s WORD that came down from heaven to us as manna in the dessert. Christ came to us through the Incarnation just as God sent Manna to the early Jews. Jesus still comes down to us as the WORD OF GOD made flesh through the sacrement of Holy Eucharist. Read this section of the Catholic Catechism to learn more about the Living Christ.
Part III Life In Christ
Remember, that "One does not live by bread alone - but by every word that comes to us from God. And Jesus IS the living word of God and unless you eat it you have no life in you.
** Can you eat your bible?**:
NO - of course not. Only through knowing and loving Christ and by eating The Living Word of God can anyone LIVE In Christ and REMAIN in Christ.
Finally, on the matter of Grace. This statement reflects a very misinformed perspective of Catholicism: In addition, the gospel of God’s grace is not proclaimed in Catholic theology. There is an ENTIRE section of our Catechism devoted to nothing but God’s grace.
The Catholic Church lives, breathes and teaches grace. I can’t imagine how you can not see that Catholics embrace Grace as hungrily as an infant child suckles at the breast of its mother! The Catechism has entire major sections devoted to teaching nothing but grace. No other church on the planet has so much sacramental devotion to grace as does the Catholic Church (except for our Orthodox brothers). There are SO many ways to access God’s grace in the Catholic Church that you can’t escape it if you tried. We have SEVEN sacraments - each with its own special access to grace. Protestants have only 1 or 2 (Baptism and Marriage). Read the reference link I gave you and see for yourself in the following sections: SECTION TWO: THE SEVEN SACRAMENTS OF THE CHURCH, CHAPTER THREE: GOD’S SALVATION: LAW AND GRACE
Can you elaborate on this statement of yours?
"I also find that Catholic theology creates many religious (SP) idols of the heart, hindering a growing affection for God alone. "
The entire Catholic Teaching is centered on self-denial and doing what Christ wants of us and to be every faithful and prayerful. How do you get a religious idol out of that? We reject humanism and secularism and other false “me-ism” based philosophies that we see substantially to non-Catholic philosophies. Examples please.
And one more of yours: **“by pure volumne (SP) of Sacred Tradition, the Holy Bible make-up about 1% or so of the Catholic Faith.” ** I don’t know where you are getting your ideas about Catholics from but every bit of it is wrong. Can you point me to where you are reading the “volume of tradition” so I can see where it is only 1% of the Holy Bible? The Bible IS CATHOLIC and COMES to us FROM tradition. Catholics assembled the Bible - it IS 100% Catholic. Who do you think has been defending it and dieing for it for 2,000 years? The Catholic Church believes in an apostolic tradition of teaching. We regard 100% of the bible as EQUAL in value to Tradition. That does not mean LESS than tradition. In fact tradition and the bible NEVER contradict. If you have any evidence of what you believe to be true please refer me to it so I may see it for myself and comment on it.
Good Luck,
James
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