If you are a Christian, what is the real reason for you not being a Catholic? - 3

[Leeann]

Cinette:

Well, didn’t He give us free choice. I don’t think if you disregard the Catholic Church you will be condemned - you just limit yourself that’s all.
Hi Cinette: I agree with you - if I disregard the CC I won’t be condemned and yes He has given us a free choice. I don’t understand how not participating would “limit” me in any way.

I have been reading carefully reading through the Catechsim of the CChurch and have posted a portion below.

It would seem that not all would agree with your own understanding, about “not being condemned”.

From the Vatican Website: Catechism of the Catholic Church Part One - The Profession of Faith

181 “Believing” is an ecclesial act. The Church’s faith precedes, engenders, supports and nourishes our faith. The Church is the mother of all believers. “No one can have God as Father who does not have the Church as Mother”(St. Cyprian, De unit. 6: PL 4, 519).

Have you ever looked at the concept of “implicit Faith”? Its interesting and consoling.

Hi Cinette: That does sounds interesting, could you share a bit on what your own concept is of “implicit Faith” ?

(I re-posted this as I think it got lost in the other posts)

 

[Cinette]

Cinette:

Well, didn’t He give us free choice. I don’t think if you disregard the Catholic Church you will be condemned - you just limit yourself that’s all.

It is when you live your life according to the principles of Christianity but you don’t believe in God. It is only through God’s grace that one is good and the Holy Spirit does enter the hearts of people, even people who do not know Jesus. I have a book where this is explained but I lent it to a friend who is doing a disertation in theology and she borrowed it. My husband is such a wonderful, good, kind, caring, sexy man and for many years he didn’t believe in God but always led a very good life.

I could site the story of my Father in Law but I am so tied right now I am going to have a siesta.

 

[Leeann]

It is when you live your life according to the principles of Christianity but you don’t believe in God. It is only through God’s grace that one is good and the Holy Spirit does enter the hearts of people, even people who do not know Jesus. I have a book where this is explained but I lent it to a friend who is doing a disertation in theology and she borrowed it. My husband is such a wonderful, good, kind, caring, sexy man and for many years he didn’t believe in God but always led a very good life.

I could site the story of my Father in Law but I am so tied right now I am going to have a siesta.

So this is your understanding of “implicit faith”?

I’m just trying to make this understanding apply somehow to what we were talking about in our original conversation.
We weren’t discussing just the people who “don’t believe in God.”

In that original conversation, I posted the following excerpt in response to your statement that we had “free choice” and that you didn’t think one would be “condemned” if they disregarded the Catholic church.

I posted from the Catholic catechsim which states this:

**From the Vatican Website: Catechism of the Catholic Church Part One - The Profession of Faith

181 “Believing” is an ecclesial act. The Church’s faith precedes, engenders, supports and nourishes our faith. The Church is the mother of all believers. “No one can have God as Father who does not have the Church as Mother”(St. Cyprian, De unit. 6: PL 4, 519).**

Clearly the Catholic catechism states that “they” believe people are indeed condemned if they disregard the Catholic church.

From the definition or understanding of “implict faith” that you’ve shared above, it would appear that you believe it would “over-ride” the church’s teaching in its catechism?

I do not want to put words into your mouth - I’m just trying to understand your above posting in relation to what we were actually talking about.

Thank you Cinette.

 

[CentralFLJames]

So this is your understanding of “implicit faith”?

I’m just trying to make this understanding apply somehow to what we were talking about in our original conversation.
We weren’t discussing just the people who “don’t believe in God.”

In that original conversation, I posted the following excerpt in response to your statement that we had “free choice” and that you didn’t think one would be “condemned” if they disregarded the Catholic church.

I posted from the Catholic catechism which states this:

**From the Vatican Website: Catechism of the Catholic Church Part One - The Profession of Faith

181 “Believing” is an ecclesial act. The Church’s faith precedes, engenders, supports and nourishes our faith. The Church is the mother of all believers. “No one can have God as Father who does not have the Church as Mother”(St. Cyprian, De unit. 6: PL 4, 519).**

Clearly the Catholic catechism states that “they” believe people are indeed condemned if they disregard the Catholic church.

From the definition or understanding of “implict faith” that you’ve shared above, it would appear that you believe it would “over-ride” the church’s teaching in its catechism?

I do not want to put words into your mouth - I’m just trying to understand your above posting in relation to what we were actually talking about.

Thank you Cinette.

Leeann, this particular catechism paragraph you reference in no way implies “condemnation” by the Catholic Church. The Church does not condemn anyone it teaches right from wrong. Individuals condemn themselves by their choices and God makes the final determination. The Church only tells us what ecclesial and moral choices are proper and which are morally wrong in God’s eyes.

For the record there are other CC paragraphs that speak more directly to your concerns about the status of non-Catholics who reject Catholic Teaching. Let me get you in the ball-park of where I think you want to talk about.

But first also consider that faith does not depend upon our ability to reason to the truth but on our humility before the Truth presented to us by those to whom Christ entrusted that task (the apostolic succession). This is why the First Vatican Council taught that it is the task of the Magisterium ALONE to determine and expound the meaning of the Tradition - including “outside the Church no salvation” (which is what I think you want to talk about here).

The teaching that gets many Protestants ire, is the oft quoted phrase “There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church”. This does not mean your are definately going to Hell if you are not Catholic. It means basically that salvation is possible only through Jesus and His One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church; even if:

• a person is not a member of a Catholic Church,
• a person lived before the time of Christ,
• a person never heard of Jesus, etc.
• a person was never baptised

All these are left to the mercy of God to judge how they responded to His graces by keeping the moral law. They will be judged on what they knew, not what they didn’t know. So, those who are judged worthy to attain to salvation do so through Jesus Christ and His Church. What non-Catholics do not understand is that they are benefiting from the Catholic Church while not consciously being formal members of The Catholic Church.

From the Catholic Catechism:

Wounds to unity
**
817** In fact, “in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame.” 269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism 270 - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers. 271

818 “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers … All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.” 272

819 “Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth” 273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.” 274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, 275 and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.” 276

870 “The sole Church of Christ which in the Creed we profess to be one, holy, catholic, and apostolic, . . . subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him. Nevertheless, many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside its visible confines”(LG 8).

See 819 above in particular.

I hope this helps you get on track with what it is I think you really want to talk about here.

James

 

[Walt_R]

It’s not by being a good person that one is saved.The motto for our Christian Community Church is “Know God, Serve God and Love God”. We have bible study on Wednesday night to know God. When you volunteer at our daily soup kitchen, we are told if you are here to be a nice person you are in the wrong place. You are working the soup kitchen to serve Christ. Our hospital and prison ministries are told the same thing. On Sundays we attend service and worship and to express our love for God.
My wife is a former Catholic. She was just floating along with no faith. After we began dating, she began attending my church. She found her faith in Jesus Christ.
I began looking into the Catholic Church and Catholic Answers in particular to better understand my in-laws. It seems I believe most of what the Catholic Church teaches. A few things I don’t agree with and a few I don’t understand.
My wife and I can’t leave our church and become Catholic. We love serving Christ through our church. I feel I would be leaving Christ if I left my church. I call it my church because I attend it but I truly believe it is Christ’s Church.

 

[Cinette]

So this is your understanding of “implicit faith”?

I’m just trying to make this understanding apply somehow to what we were talking about in our original conversation.
We weren’t discussing just the people who “don’t believe in God.”

In that original conversation, I posted the following excerpt in response to your statement that we had “free choice” and that you didn’t think one would be “condemned” if they disregarded the Catholic church.

I posted from the Catholic catechsim which states this:

**From the Vatican Website: Catechism of the Catholic Church Part One - The Profession of Faith

181 “Believing” is an ecclesial act. The Church’s faith precedes, engenders, supports and nourishes our faith. The Church is the mother of all believers. “No one can have God as Father who does not have the Church as Mother”(St. Cyprian, De unit. 6: PL 4, 519).**

Clearly the Catholic catechism states that “they” believe people are indeed condemned if they disregard the Catholic church.

From the definition or understanding of “implict faith” that you’ve shared above, it would appear that you believe it would “over-ride” the church’s teaching in its catechism?

I do not want to put words into your mouth - I’m just trying to understand your above posting in relation to what we were actually talking about.

Thank you Cinette.

Hi LeeAnn

We have had quite a day celebrating our anniversary and my husband’s birthday and it is now nearly 10pm and I can’t answer you right now. This is an interesting discussion and I am looking forward to it.

Ciao
:tiphat:

 

[Leeann]

Hi LeeAnn

We have had quite a day celebrating our anniversary and my husband’s birthday and it is now nearly 10pm and I can’t answer you right now. This is an interesting discussion and I am looking forward to it.

Ciao
:tiphat:

**Congrats on your anniversary! Hope you enjoyed the combined **celebrations, rest well.

 

[Cinette]

**Congrats on your anniversary! Hope you enjoyed the combined **celebrations, rest well.

Thank you LeeAnn for your kind wishes.

How could I possibly improve on James’ response. I can add a few comments and my observations based on my experience. I am not as knowledgeable as James and you.

I was away from the Church for 27 years - I just didn’t think that I needed God and I confess that I was somewhat influenced by my athiest husband and his parents.

Then one day the Holy Spirit nugged me - I read in the papers that there were going to be prayers for world peace and I went to a Catholic Church nearby and prayed…one thing led to another and there I was back in the CC. I also did a Life in the Spirit Seminar with a Catholic Charismatic Renewal group also nearby and this was transforming. I am not Charsimatic in my manifestations but I have kept close to them as I have learned so much.

It was then that I began to be concerned about the souls of my parents-in-law. They were extraordinary human beings with a tremendous caring and compassion for others. My Mom-in-law was loved by many, she was a person who networked and in her daily life helped many people. My Father in law also. Yet they did not believe and the subject was never discussed. She lived longer than him and towards the end of her life I used to often see her praying (from a crack in the door I would observe her bent in prayer each night).

Only through Jesus can you get to the Father. This worried me and of course certain Protestants interpreted it as meaning that only some Christians were saved - everyone else was condemned. I reflected on this and decided that I could not accept this since God was loving and merciful. Jesus died for the salvation of all and even if a person was not a Christian but lived life according to the Commandments, how could God possibly reject that person. My readings later confirmed this and it just makes sense. I do think we have to apply common sense.

I have known many good people - Jews, Athiests, Hindus, etc. etc. even secularists who were and are good people and who live good lives. I have known Communists who were courageous and herioc and who sacrificed themselves for the common good. I have also met Fundamentalists who have come up with the remark, “So and so is not saved…” How on earth can ANYONE make such a remark!! First, Jesus told us not to judge. He forgave the thief who died next to him on the cross and took him THAT DAY to paradise. We cannot presume to know the state of anybody’s soul!

My husband, who was an athiest for many years and who believed (thru the influence of a Jew) was reading a book called CATHOLICISM (I have lent the book so I cannot give you the name of the author) looked up and said “Listen to this…” and read me a section on “implicit faith”. It gave me such joy and made so much sense. I knew it was RIGHT :yup:

We are all unique - different DNA, fingerprints, looks, etc. etc. and our journey is DIFFERENT. Some of us just KNOW that God exists. For me I only have to look at and observe creation and the birth and growth of a child and it gets me going :dancing:

Here is a scripture verse which confirmed my thoughts on the subject of implicit faith:

*“I have other sheep that are not of this fold. These I have to lead as well and they shall listen to my voice. Then there will be one flock since there is one shepherd.” * John 10.:16


You might gain some understanding of what can sometimes cause people to turn their backs on the Church. See my post on the forum “European Catholicism”. This might put you against the CC but the truth is the truth. We in the CC have a lot of sinners but we also have most awsome saints.:angel1:

 

[Cinette]

Hi LeeAnn!

After I responded to you I looked back and came across James’ post #316. It was wonderful and he explained it beautifully. More as I would but better.

Yes, implicit faith is when one believes without “knowing” it.

I don’t know if you have read anything about Dorothy Day. What a special person she was - here is an example of someone who lived her Faith through extraordinary works.

While I am here let me say if you have never read anything by Henry Nouwen you must get “The Return of the Prodigal Son” ALL his books are magnificent.

Gosh James’ comments have got me on a high!:extrahappy: :bounce: :extrahappy: :bounce:

 

[Cinette]

It’s not by being a good person that one is saved.The motto for our Christian Community Church is “Know God, Serve God and Love God”. We have bible study on Wednesday night to know God. When you volunteer at our daily soup kitchen, we are told if you are here to be a nice person you are in the wrong place. You are working the soup kitchen to serve Christ. Our hospital and prison ministries are told the same thing. On Sundays we attend service and worship and to express our love for God.
My wife is a former Catholic. She was just floating along with no faith. After we began dating, she began attending my church. She found her faith in Jesus Christ.
I began looking into the Catholic Church and Catholic Answers in particular to better understand my in-laws. It seems I believe most of what the Catholic Church teaches. A few things I don’t agree with and a few I don’t understand.
My wife and I can’t leave our church and become Catholic. We love serving Christ through our church. I feel I would be leaving Christ if I left my church. I call it my church because I attend it but I truly believe it is Christ’s Church.

You sound like a great Christian guy! Faith without works is dead. You should also take a look at Dorothy Day. She was at one time agnostic and a very worldly journalist and then …BUMBA! She believed and couldn’t resist serving God and she did amazing things for the poor.

 

[catholiconce]

if telling the truth is being mean, i am guilty as charged.

You can not handle the Truth or Know it

 

[distracted]

It’s not by being a good person that one is saved.The motto for our Christian Community Church is “Know God, Serve God and Love God”. We have bible study on Wednesday night to know God. When you volunteer at our daily soup kitchen, we are told if you are here to be a nice person you are in the wrong place. You are working the soup kitchen to serve Christ. Our hospital and prison ministries are told the same thing. On Sundays we attend service and worship and to express our love for God.
My wife is a former Catholic. She was just floating along with no faith. After we began dating, she began attending my church. She found her faith in Jesus Christ.
I began looking into the Catholic Church and Catholic Answers in particular to better understand my in-laws. It seems I believe most of what the Catholic Church teaches. A few things I don’t agree with and a few I don’t understand.
My wife and I can’t leave our church and become Catholic. We love serving Christ through our church. I feel I would be leaving Christ if I left my church. I call it my church because I attend it but I truly believe it is Christ’s Church.

Jesus established ONE Church some 2000 yrs ago… all the others are man-made and began about 500 yrs ago (at the most). It is, obviusly, not your fault that you were not raised in the original Church. And there is a lot of good in the other ones. Sometimes i feel they have something the Catholic Ch does not… but in a way they don’t… it’s just that the CC has it in a different way or whatever… I am very unhappy with things i see in the CC… & experience… but those things go on in every church where humans are involved… which brings us to the whole point of why Christ established a Churhc. One reason was because we are so messed up by sin & need “things”… We need what he wants to give us. He gives us everything we need for salvation in and thorugh his Church…
As unhappy as i get with the Church (its members ) i cannot leave it. I know too much… (the Real Presence …)

God bless…

 

[Leeann]

Thank you LeeAnn for your kind wishes.

How could I possibly improve on James’ response. I can add a few comments and my observations based on my experience. I am not as knowledgeable as James and you.

Leeann:I prefer “wisdom” - the kind in Jas 3: 13 - 18 - although as evident with some of my posts, it is obvious I haven’t much of it at times and what knowledge I now have, in any matter, has to be based in “Him”…hence I’m forever learning where “knowledge” is concerned!

Thank you Cinette for sharing this in a way of explanation about your understanding of “implicit faith”. I value your (name removed by moderator)ut and your experience.

The scripture you posted:

*“I have other sheep that are not of this fold. These I have to lead as well and they shall listen to my voice. Then there will be one flock since there is one shepherd.” * John 10.:16

Am I correct in understanding that you place your “implicit faith” in the “one shepherd” - (Jesus) - and not in the “one flock” - (any one church/organization as opposed to “all believers” who are His)?

My prayer for you is that as you continue on your return in your walk with the Lord, that He will guide you and direct your ways, in His truth.

God Bless

 

[mmlj4u]

I’m sure Catholics are nice people but would never become one myself. Why? The services seem so lacking in beauty and mystery. There doesn’t seem to be a feeling of anything in common with the Early Church. Everything seems so frightening and stark. OTOH, the Orthodox Church seems to have a sense of greater authenticity and warmth. Don’t know if this makes sense.

 

[Leeann]

She believed and couldn’t resist serving God and she did amazing things for the poor.

I can’t speak for all Protestants or other believers and followers of Christ outside of the Catholic church - however the ones that *I *have come in contact with and what I myself have always understood…is exactly as what is stated above, in regards to how you described Dorothy Day - once you “believe” the evidence of the Holy Spirit living and moving and directing your being is so real that one can’t **“resist serving God”…**it’s like a natural continuation, coming face to face with the realization and desire and the ability now to fulfill His Will in our lives…not because of who ***we ***are or what we have been instructed to do by our church, but because of who HE is and what HE instructs and
directs and enables us to do…the “desire” is there…when we believe.

“Faith without works is dead” should be any true believer’s understanding…instilled solely by the power and grace and annointing of God to each individual.

Example:

Two may be sitting in a church, side by side, listening to a sermon/message on the topic of “works”.

• one goes out after and decides to volunteer and do “good works” simply because this is what the minister/priest has told them to do in order to “run the race”, and feeling a bit self righteous and good about how much further along they will get by doing what has been told to them.
• the other goes out and* continues* to do what they’ve been doing all along, while encouraged by the sermon/message, the “inspiration” has already been in them from the moment they* truly believed *and *the delight *, the blessings, realized by the service that they do for their Lord, is from the honour and glory it will bring to His name…not realized from ‘how much further along they will get by doing these works.’

I think perhaps sometimes the “phrases” or “terminology” that different faiths use gets taken out of context or mixed up a lot of the time - consequently in a normal conversation - we think we’re talking about the same thing - when in reality - just a quick thrown out familiar phrase or word that we as a “group” understand, comes across quite foreign to those of another denomination or faith who have a different meaning or sense of what is being said.

Cinette - I think I’ll look into Dorothy Day and her life - from what I’ve quickly seen by looking on some sites - she sounds like an amazing individual! Henri Nouwen, I’m familiar with and am sure he got “off track” with some of his thoughts and teachings.

Boy! Sorry…we’re really off topic here aren’t we???

Back to topic: If you are a Christian, what is the real reason for you not being a Catholic?

“Implicit faith” - I believe that my own implicit faith should rest in Christ and not in the hands of any one particular church/organization/institution or their leaders as I understand the Catholic church “requests” and “expects” of their members.

God Bless

 

[catholiconce]

I’m sure Catholics are nice people but would never become one myself. Why? The services seem so lacking in beauty and mystery. There doesn’t seem to be a feeling of anything in common with the Early Church. Everything seems so frightening and stark. OTOH, the Orthodox Church seems to have a sense of greater authenticity and warmth. Don’t know if this makes sense.

Yes Catholics are nice people!! However so are Methodist and Lutherans. I was a Catholic, Now Lutheran and I am the same person in Gods Eyes . I have the same home the same Job and Income same person. What? just because I attend church across the street I am some how Less Christian ? We are all Christians that is what is required of us. Some on this fourm and those on EWTN radio think otherwise. You do not have to be a Roman Catholic to be a Christian or to Gain Salvation and that is that.

 

[celticcrusader]

Yes Catholics are nice people!! However so are Methodist and Lutherans. I was a Catholic, Now Lutheran and I am the same person in Gods Eyes .///// How do you know this? Has GOD reveled this to you ?

 

[Cinette]

Thank you Cinette for sharing this in a way of explanation about your understanding of “implicit faith”. I value your (name removed by moderator)ut and your experience.

The scripture you posted:

*“I have other sheep that are not of this fold. These I have to lead as well and they shall listen to my voice. Then there will be one flock since there is one shepherd.” * John 10.:16

Am I correct in understanding that you place your “implicit faith” in the “one shepherd” - (Jesus) - and not in the “one flock” - (any one church/organization as opposed to “all believers” who are His)?

My prayer for you is that as you continue on your return in your walk with the Lord, that He will guide you and direct your ways, in His truth.

God Bless

I was going to quote that verse about the Mansions but decided not to as it would have made my post too long. I am glad I didn’t because you did and added your perspective.

I am in absolute agreement with you. You give food for thought.

I will be re-reading your posts as well as those of James this coming week.

See what the laity can do??!!:yup:

 

[CentralFLJames]

Am I correct in understanding that you place your “implicit faith” in the “one shepherd” - (Jesus) - and not in the “one flock” - (any one church/organization as opposed to “all believers” who are His)?

I could be wrong but I don’t think Cinette is falling into the erroneous interpretation that Christ has multiple flocks since this must conspire to create a false dichotomy between Jesus and His one true flock in John 10:1-5. Jesus only has a single flock - but some misplaced sheep.

To understand this passage one must really have some fundamental understanding of how sheep were shepherded in ancient times and the way that sheep behave and socially interact. Sheep were not consistently honorable (but goats were plain dishonorable and promiscuous and why we see the goat-sheep contrast and dichotomy so often in scripture about judgement). Sheep did not always stay all together and like so many humans routinely commingled themselves with other sheep from “other flocks”. Thus sheep in the absence of direction will just follow any ol’ herd to where the food is and where the social fun is so to speak. But sheep are very loyal to their masters voice and will instantly seperate themselves from their foreign “flocks of convenience” when the shepherd rounds them up and calls them by name.

Here, Jesus uses Ancient Near Eastern shepherding practices as a metaphor for his relationship to his followers. A shepherd of those times would call his sheep from a mix of flocks, and his sheep would hearken to his voice and follow, while the sheep of other flocks would ignore any but their own shepherd’s voice (John 10:1-5). In that context, Jesus says, “I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me,…and I lay down my life for the sheep”, and he tells the Pharisees that they “do not believe because [they] are not part of [his] flock” (v. 26). He continues, “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand”.

So there really is only one flock and one shepherd - its just that the sheep from “the one flock” at times will intermix with other foreign flocks but will always come running home when called.

This also gets into some doctrine on unlimited/universal (Catholic) atonement vs the strange notion of limited atonement (Calvin) but has absolutely nothing to do with implying a plurality of Churches.

Christ said “thou are Peter and upon this rock I build My Church”. He did NOT say, “thou are Peter and upon this rock I build one of my many churches”. This latter thinking is a modern innovation coming out of certain non-denominational bible-only churches who are trying to cherry pick the disenfranchised members splintering off the many main-line Protestant sects who are out “church hunting”. In the context of the shepherd metaphor, the Catholic position would hold that the other flocks are indicative of sheep following false teachings of hired pastors/shepherds who are not so good that they are willing to lay down their life for their flocks like the good shepherd of God. No, these hired shepherds/pastors instead will all cut and run at the first sign of danger and the wolf packs will take what they get. However, those sheep who are members of The Good Shepherd’s flock (the Catholic Church), even if meandering to temporarily join other foreign flocks will always recognize Christ’s voice and run to join Him at his call.

In this current sub-topic of virtual faith this is also a fine example of virtual faith since the sheep who are confused and think they belong in other flocks are more comfortable identifying with the true flock (Christ’s flock) when they see it. These will run to the Good Shepherd as if they were always part of His true flock at the first sign of danger or when called by name.

Hope this clears up some fundamental confusion here.

James

 

[guanophore]

I’m sure Catholics are nice people but would never become one myself. Why? The services seem so lacking in beauty and mystery. There doesn’t seem to be a feeling of anything in common with the Early Church. Everything seems so frightening and stark. OTOH, the Orthodox Church seems to have a sense of greater authenticity and warmth. Don’t know if this makes sense.

Oh yes. Very much sense.