If you are a Christian, what is the real reason for you not being a Catholic? - 3

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The following verses, come to mind, (knowing that they are in fact relating to the Jews in OT times…)

Isaiah 29 - V13 - 24
(the whole chapter is best )

13Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near [me] with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear **toward me **is taught by the precept of men:

14Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, [even] a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise [men] shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent [men] shall be hid.

15Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the LORD, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us?

16Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter’s clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

17[Is] it not yet a very little while, and Lebanon shall be turned into a fruitful field, and the fruitful field shall be esteemed as a forest?

18And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

19The meek also shall increase [their] joy in the LORD, and the poor among men shall rejoice in the Holy One of Israel.

20For the terrible one is brought to nought, and the scorner is consumed, and all that watch for iniquity are cut off:

21That make a man an offender for a word, and lay a snare for him that reproveth in the gate, and turn aside the just for a thing of nought.

22Therefore thus saith the LORD, who redeemed Abraham, concerning the house of Jacob, Jacob shall not now be ashamed, neither shall his face now wax pale.

23But when he seeth his children, the work of mine hands, in the midst of him, they shall sanctify my name, and sanctify the Holy One of Jacob, and shall fear the God of Israel.

24They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine.

Matthew Henry’s commentary for Isaiah Chapter 29:

Judgements on Jerusalem and on its enemies. (1-8) The senselessness and hypocrisy of the Jews. (9-16) The conversion of the Gentiles, and future blessings for the Jews. (17-24)1-8 Ariel may signify the altar of burnt-offerings. Let Jerusalem know that outward religious services will not make men free from judgements. Hypocrites never can please God, nor make their peace with him. God had often and long, by a host of angels, encamped round about Jerusalem for protection and deliverance; but now he fought against it. Proud looks and proud language shall be brought down by humbling providences. The destruction of Jerusalem’s enemies is foretold. The army of Sennacherib went as a dream; and thus the multitudes, that through successive ages fight against God’s altar and worship, shall fall. Speedily will sinners awake from their soothing dreams in the pains of hell. 9-16 The security of sinners in sinful ways, is cause for lamentation and wonder. The learned men, through prejudice, said that the Divine prophecies were obscure; and the poor urged their want of learning. The Bible is a sealed book to every man, learned or unlearned, till he begins to study it with a simple heart and a teachable spirit, that he may thence learn the truth and the will of God. To worship God, is to approach him. And if the heart be full of his love and fear, out of the abundance of it the mouth will speak; but there are many whose religion is lip-labour only. When they pretend to be speaking to God, they are thinking of a thousand foolish things. They worship the God of Israel according to their own devices. Numbers are only formal in worship. And their religion is only to comply with custom, and to serve their own interest. But the wanderings of mind, and defects in devotion, which are the believer’s burden, are very different from the withdrawing of the heart from God, so severely blamed. And those who make religion no more than a pretence, to serve a turn, deceive themselves. And as those that quarrel with God, so those that think to conceal themselves from him, in effect charge him with folly. But all their perverse conduct shall be entirely done away. 17-24 The wonderful change here foretold, may refer to the affairs of Judah, though it looks further. When a great harvest of souls was gathered to Christ from among the Gentiles, then the wilderness was turned into a fruitful field; and the Jewish church, that had long been a fruitful field, became as a deserted forest. Those who, when in trouble, can truly rejoice in God, shall soon have cause greatly to rejoice in him. The grace of meekness contributes to the increase of our holy joy. The enemies who were powerful shall become mean and weak. To complete the repose of God’s people, the scorners at home shall be cut off by judgements. All are apt to speak unadvisedly, and to mistake what they hear, but it is very unfair to make a man an offender for a word. They did all they could to bring those into trouble who told them of their faults. But He that redeemed Abraham out of his snares and troubles, will redeem those who are, by faith, his true seed, out of theirs. It will be the greatest comfort to godly parents to see their children renewed creatures, the work of God’s grace. May those who now err in spirit, and murmur against the truth, come to understanding, and learn true doctrine. The Spirit of truth shall set right their mistakes, and lead them into all truth. This should encourage us to pray for those that have erred, and are deceived. All who murmured at the truths of God, as hard sayings, shall learn and be aware what God designed in all. See the change religion produces in the hearts of men, and the peace and pleasure of a humble and devout spirit.
 
Most who think they are Catholic are not. Unless you attend a traditional Mass You have left the church and Leaving the Church is leaving Christ. The "new Mass is invalid and anybody who attends it is no more catholic than a Methodist or lutheran.
…WELCOME latinonly well we now know where you stand and it is not an uncommon one . actually I am Catholic and not to brag but am of the blood line of the nation of GODS chosen people of the new testement era who did not abandon God when we were persecuted by our own church . What is traditional Mass? And I have not seen the new Mass yet, I don’t think? any way it’s always nice to see someone new here!
 
Nice first introduction post latinonly. Are you really Catholic or a protestant or schismatic pretending to be one to give the impression that Catholics are infighting among themselves? :rolleyes:

James
How can we infight when there so many other battles out there? we may argue with each other and sometimes say things that look argumenitive but they might be a warped sense of humor. I would hope the world dosen’t see it as infighting.
 
so going by what you have posted you agree the theology behind the Holy Trinity and Christ being God and man is complex and needs to be taught by those with a higher understanding and authority…now you are in a “dangerous” postion of having to put implicit faith in the authority that taught you that the Trinity is true and Christ is God and man…the scripture you quoted is good but remember the word of God is a sharp double edged sword that can cut both ways,besides little children shoudn’t play with knives:D
 
Nice first introduction post latinonly. Are you really Catholic or a protestant or schismatic pretending to be one to give the impression that Catholics are infighting among themselves? :rolleyes:

James
Well Are you really Catholic or a protestant or schismatic?
 
Well Are you really Catholic or a protestant or schismatic?
excuse me answer his question then you can ask him, i guess according you i am not a catholic cause i can’t attend mass in latin…i almost lost my faith when i first woke up because of people like you…hosently your type are as bad as fundamentalists imop…
 
excuse me answer his question then you can ask him, i guess according you i am not a catholic cause i can’t attend mass in latin…i almost lost my faith when i first woke up because of people like you…hosently your type are as bad as fundamentalists imop…
You must not take any notice. You let the Holy Spirit lead you.

🙂 :yup: :love:
 
The churches are here for a purpose and we all need the instruction and guidance of those who are above us in understanding and authority
Elsewhere, you have stated the opposite. 🤷

Something to the effect of “if it is that complex, it is not of God”, as if you believe we should all “get it” on our own.

Do you realize that Jesus did not establish “churches”?
Code:
(in regards to the questions you asked above ) - however - Christ's message was pretty simple and clear - not a lot of theology there - He made it clear enough for the ordinary people of His day, why should it be so complex now?
Really?! Who need teachers, instructions or guidance? Can’t we all grasp it on our own?
Any dogmas or doctrines that are so complex - too huge to even consider because we think we lack the “knowledge” or are not “theologians” and encourages us to place our “implicit faith” in them or **their organization **is dangerous.
I think you misunderstand the nature of the Church.
Code:
I simply believe that if we place our "implicit faith" is in **HIM** ....the truth will be clear and He'll lead us in the right direction,
He will not be mocked, He will not share His glory or honour with anyone, He will honour a humble and sincere person seeking His truth.
This seems somewhat contrictory just by itself. "“God wil not share his honor” “God will honor…”

Are you trying your hand at Proverbs by Leeann?
Thanks fb19 for your (name removed by moderator)ut - I typed this in quickly and I hope it doesn’t come across “short” or " brisk" or something…I meant it in just an ordinary conversational tone…these written threads don’t allow for “tone” or “mood”…well…sometimes I guess they do! :rolleyes: God Bless
No, just inconsistent and confused.:confused:
 
Elsewhere, you have stated the opposite. 🤷

Something to the effect of “if it is that complex, it is not of God”, as if you believe we should all “get it” on our own.

Do you realize that Jesus did not establish “churches”?

Really?! Who need teachers, instructions or guidance? Can’t we all grasp it on our own?

I think you misunderstand the nature of the Church.

This seems somewhat contrictory just by itself. "“God wil not share his honor” “God will honor…”

Are you trying your hand at Proverbs by Leeann?

No, just inconsistent and confused.:confused:
guanophore, for a ironic change it is I who now must say “please cut her some slack” here. Normally, I am the one who is a little forceful and impatient with non-Catholics and you are the one correcting me. I really think Leeann is starting to see the truth and changing some of her original misconceptions and beliefs - let her segue into it at her own pace. People can only change in small increments until the the full light goes on - then its a flood of euphoria as everything clicks …

God Bless,
James
 
so going by what you have posted you agree the theology behind the Holy Trinity and Christ being God and man is complex and needs to be taught by those with a higher understanding and authority…now you are in a “dangerous” postion of having to put implicit faith in the authority that taught you that the Trinity is true and Christ is God and man…the scripture you quoted is good but remember the word of God is a sharp double edged sword that can cut both ways,besides little children shoudn’t play with knives:D
No…I don’t consider it a “dangerous” position at all…because I didn’t place my implicit faith in **their **authority for what they taught - I placed it in God and by doing so, was by **His authority **and grace and mercy, able to understand and believe it at His truth.

Matthew 18: V2 - 4 :
1 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? Lk. 22.24

2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,

3 and said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Mk. 10.15 · Lk. 18.17

4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Hebrews Ch 4:

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.>>>>>>>>>>>>

I agree fl10 - I don’t like knives - but I’m not afraid of His Word, Many times it’s exposed my weaknesses and my errors and my my lack of understanding both to myself and others …but any attempts to twist His word or manipulate it into something that is not **His **truth will inevitably fall apart. I place my implicit faith in Him and His authority and His ability to be the only one that is able to do that.
🙂
 
Originally Posted by Leeann
The churches are here for a purpose and we all need the instruction and guidance of those who are above us in understanding and authority
Elsewhere, you have stated the opposite. 🤷

Something to the effect of “if it is that complex, it is not of God”, as if you believe we should all “get it” on our own.

The “something to the effect of” - is not quite what I posted –

Originally posted:345
If it has become that complicated, I believe it is not of His doing, but that it is the result of those who have a mandate of their own and have made it appear complicated in order to sustain the authority over their members by implying they have better “knowledge” and “understanding” – watering down the right of every believers promise of the sufficiency of the leading of the Holy Spirit in their own lives to be able to reveal His truth and distinguish what is true. ** (not “get it on our own” )**

And
Another post: 353

The churches are here for a purpose and we all need the instruction and guidance of those who are above us in understanding and authority (in regards to the questions you asked above ) - however - Christ’s message was pretty simple and clear - not a lot of theology there - He made it clear enough for the ordinary people of His day, why should it be so complex now?

Any dogmas or doctrines that are so complex - too huge to even consider because we think we lack the “knowledge” or are not “theologians” and encourages us to place our “implicit faith” in them or their organization is dangerous.

Do you realize that Jesus did not establish “churches”?

I’m sorry, could you elaborate on this a bit…not sure of what you’re trying to say.

Originally Posted by Leeann
(in regards to the questions you asked above ) - however - Christ’s message was pretty simple and clear - not a lot of theology there - He made it clear enough for the ordinary people of His day, why should it be so complex now?

Really?! Who need teachers, instructions or guidance? Can’t we all grasp it on our own?

Well…if you don’t believe that the promise of the Holy Spirit and His gifts and leading/teaching were meant for you too…I guess then you’d have to go it on “your own”. But I’m sure you’d agree, without His guidance you’d be left believing whatever someone else told you - no matter what.
Christ’s message on salvation, righteousness, being meek and humble, on sinning – you know what I’m talking about.

Originally Posted by Leeann
Any dogmas or doctrines that are so complex - too huge to even consider because we think we lack the “knowledge” or are not “theologians” and encourages us to place our “implicit faith” in them or their organization is dangerous.

I think you misunderstand the nature of the Church.

In what way?

Originally Posted by Leeann
I simply believe that if we place our “implicit faith” is in HIM …the truth will be clear and He’ll lead us in the right direction,
He will not be mocked, He will not share His glory or honour with anyone, He will honour a humble and sincere person seeking His truth.

This seems somewhat contrictory just by itself. "“God wil not share his honor” “God will honor…”

Why does it seem contradictory?

Are you trying your hand at Proverbs by Leeann?

Originally Posted by Leeann
Thanks fb19 for your (name removed by moderator)ut - I typed this in quickly and I hope it doesn’t come across “short” or " brisk" or something…I meant it in just an ordinary conversational tone…these written threads don’t allow for “tone” or “mood”…well…sometimes I guess they do! God Bless

No, just inconsistent and confused.

That’s okay guanaphore – I can understand how that happens in here at times….my own head is still spinning with “the mass” discussion - a rather “complex” and “complicated” piece of teaching/theology/ritual/rite/ wouldn’t you agree?
 
COLOR]
No…I don’t consider it a “dangerous” position at all…because I didn’t place my implicit faith in **their **
authority for what they taught - I placed it in God and by doing so, was by **His authority **and grace and mercy, able to understand and believe it at His truth…fbl9.the church’s authority to teach comes from God not man…

Matthew 18: V2 - 4 :
1 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? Lk. 22.24

2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,

3 and said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Mk. 10.15 · Lk. 18.17

4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>fbl9and like a child i accept the church’s aurthority as coming from Him

Hebrews Ch 4:

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.>>>>>>>>>>>>

I agree fl10 - I don’t like knives - but I’m not afraid of His Word, Many times it’s exposed my weaknesses and my errors and my my lack of understanding both to myself and others …but any attempts to twist His word or manipulate it into something that is not **His **truth will inevitably fall apart. I place my implicit faith in Him and His authority and His ability to be the only one that is able to do that.
:)niether am i afraid of His word…not quite sure what you are meaning with the last though.it comes across as saying God can manipulate His word into that which is not true…till later
 
**Leeann:**I agree fl10 - I don’t like knives - but I’m not afraid of His Word, Many times it’s exposed my weaknesses and my errors and my my lack of understanding both to myself and others …but any attempts to twist His word or manipulate it into something that is not His truth will inevitably fall apart. I place my implicit faith in Him and His authority and His ability to be the only one that is able to do that.
COLOR]niether am i afraid of His word…not quite sure what you are meaning with the last though.it comes across as saying God can manipulate His word into that which is not true…till later

It sure does!!! :eek:

Thanks for pointing that out… you did it graciously though…and for that I’m very grateful.

I think you know what I was trying to say - my implicit faith in Him and His authority/ His ability to have His Word stand against anything false.
 
Most who think they are Catholic are not. Unless you attend a traditional Mass You have left the church and Leaving the Church is leaving Christ. The "new Mass is invalid and anybody who attends it is no more catholic than a Methodist or lutheran.
I would really like to hear more on this subject,how did you come to this conclusion? why is or how is the “new mass” invalid? how can you compare Catholics to Protestants ? they do not have all seven sacraments like the Catholic Church.
 
Most who think they are Catholic are not. Unless you attend a traditional Mass You have left the church and Leaving the Church is leaving Christ. The "new Mass is invalid and anybody who attends it is no more catholic than a Methodist or lutheran.
Can you explain what is a “traditional mass” and what are the key liturgies that are absent from the Novus Ordo Mass that make it superior? Are you aware that the Novus Ordo mass actually has more prayers in the liturgy? Can you point to any apostolic document or scripture or teaching that backs up your claim that the Novus Ordo is invalid? Can you give anything other than just an assertion to go on? You have no established pedigree here since this was your first post. What are your credentials or reasons for saying this?

Is Latin the essential thing? If so, are scriptures invalid for be spoken first in Aramaic but written in Greek? Was Jesus less a Jew for speaking Aramaic and not Hebrew?

Just trying to understand where you are coming from.

James
 
I was a Catholic, Now Lutheran and I am the same person in Gods Eyes .
the same person, Yes… Same graces - NO.
I just because I attend church across the street I am some how Less Christian ?
Possibly…
We are all Christians that is what is required of us. Some on this fourm and those on EWTN radio think otherwise. You do not have to be a Roman Catholic to be a Christian or to Gain Salvation and that is that.
the church teaches you must be Cahtolic to be saved unless you are invincibly ignorant as to the truths of the Catholic faith…

If you were once Catholic, that may not be the case…
 
By LeeAnn…but any attempts to twist His word or manipulate it into something that is not **His **truth will inevitably fall apart. I place my implicit faith in Him and His authority and His ability to be the only one that is able to do that.
🙂
…by fbl9,and we have evidence of things falling apart,witness the constant fractionizing outside of the church…LeeAnn i hope you will note who defined the doctrines in regards to the Holy Trinity and Christ the man and God…the way your post clarifiying what you were getting at with this one seeems to say to me:that unless you beleive something it does not come from God:IOW if you LeeAnn don’t beleive a doctrine then said doctrine does not come from God…peace
 
…by fbl9,and we have evidence of things falling apart,witness the constant fractionizing outside of the church…LeeAnn i hope you will note who defined the doctrines in regards to the Holy Trinity and Christ the man and God…

I know who truly defined them for me…who defined them for you fb19?

the way your post clarifiying what you were getting at with this one seeems to say to me:that unless you beleive something it does not come from God:IOW if you LeeAnn don’t beleive a doctrine then said doctrine does not come from God…peace

or - if I, Leeann don’t understand a doctrine, I Leeann will put my “implicit faith” in God…by prayerfully reading His word, asking humbly and faithfully that He will enable me to be able to understand and discern His truth, by the leading of the Holy Spirit…if it His truth and real and true…believe it.
Peace also fb19.
 
…by fbl9,and we have evidence of things falling apart,witness the constant fractionizing outside of the church…

Yes…lots of different denoms outside of “the church”…just as there are lots of different opinions, different interpretations or understanding of dogmas/doctrines that are within “the church”…it’s just not as visible…but it’s there…
 
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