If you are a Christian, what is the real reason for you not being a Catholic? - 3

[Matariel]

I’m running out of reasons

But the residual reasons I’m still grapling with:

1. Veneration of Mary approximating worship. I believe in her spiritual purity, grace and special place in our hearts - but struggle with what appears to be close to, if not, worship.

I think it’s good to remember that we can’t see into people’s hearts and tell how they are regarding Mary, but I would say that, for the most part, Roman Catholics and other Catholics, do not give Mary undue honour. After all, she did bear God within her for nine months. She was full of grace. And it’s good to remember that the Church always deals swiftly with groups that elevate Mary to a Godess-like level. For instance, the excommunication of The Lady of All Nations group, and the Colliridians, who worshiped Mary.

1. Necessity of all sacraments for salvation. I’m actually drawn to the sacraments (maybe that is telling me something), but coming from a Protestant perspective, its difficult to get over verses in scripture which tell us that we can be saved through faith in Christ and nothing suggesting that works/sacraments are necessary for salvation (easier to understand the necessity for sanctification).

There is one huge problem with the above statement: Sacraments are works, they are graces, given by God, and they are unmerited.

1. Infallibility - that’s a tough one as to err is human and we have all witnessed errors within the Church (even though, overall, it is a Holy and awesome body).

Remember that infallibility is not impeccability or sinlessness. And remember the words of our Lord to St. Peter.

 

[elvisman]

Wow, you basically attacked me, when I went out of my way to say I was making observations from my personal experience, and I even went out of my way to say that people on this board have been stark exceptions to my experience, and I’m being uncharitable?

IN FACT, this thread’s purpose was to SOLICIT the very responses I have given. Geez, if you can’t handle the answers, maybe you shouldn’t read these tough questions. Take a little context and call me in the morning.

A couple of observations/comments: You have no idea how much I pray, or what I pray for. I agree that there are bad apples in every group. I would make the same observations that I am making about the Catholic church about most churches, based on my experience with them, and with what I observe about society in general, and its degredation of everything sacred. But, we’re not talking about those churches; we’re talking about the Catholic church. That was, once again, the point of this thread, which seems to have been lost on you.

I’d also like to point out that you are seriously misconstruing my opinion of myself. My righteousness is not my own, and I believe the Bible when it says our righteous acts are like dirty rags before God; however, there is a standard of a righteous life that Jesus and the Apostles laid out, and (just another observation), if you’re not living that life, you’ll likely find yourself getting more “blows” that you expect on Judgment Day.

Observe some of my other conversations on this board. In several instances I have come to the defense of the Catholic church and Catholics, and I’ve had several meaningful, productive, and amiable conversations. This thread, by its very nature, was going to have some negativity in it. If you can’t handle that, then maybe you should stick to other conversations.

I had hoped that perhaps this conversation would turn to what can be done to clear up misconceptions (hence my original request), and discuss what both Catholics and non-Catholics alike can do to increase knowledge of God and righteousness in the world.

My advice to you is to stop making blanket statements about the Catholic Church such as it’s “a broken system” simply because there are some people within it that are not living up to the ideal Christian standard. This might put an end to others posting retorts to your ridiculous accusations and self-righteous drivel.

Another thing - stop being so angry. Your posts are filled with so much acrimony and immature bitterness that I am tempted to ask you how old you are and who hurt you so badly.

Lastly - as I said in another thread - study the Christian faith. I believe, as Cardinal Newman said, "To be steeped in history is to cease being Protestant."
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[Matariel]

Lastly - as I said in another thread - study the Christian faith. I believe, as Cardinal Newman said, “To be steeped in history is to cease being Protestant.”
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I agree that to be steeped in history is to cease being Protestant, and I’m glad you said that…

before lent of this year I went to RCIA, but I never finished it. I remain a traditional Anglican, but pretty much an Anglo-Papalist. And I feel like I believe fully in the Roman Church and the Pope. But the American and European Roman Christians seem so apathetic towards current situations. Just a couple days ago, I ran into a life-long Catholic, who had taught classes in a Catholic church, and who now does not attend Mass, that has never heard of Peter the Apostle being the first Pope, or that Christ gave the power to forgive sins to the Church in the Gospel of John!

So, while I believe Roman Catholic, I remain a Catholic, traditional Anglican. I’m not sure what to do next, really.

Sorry I got off-topic.

 

[ckempston]

**My advice to you is to stop **making blanket statements about the Catholic Church such as it’s “a broken system” simply because there are some people within it that are not living up to the ideal Christian standard. This might put an end to others posting retorts to your ridiculous accusations and self-righteous drivel.

Another thing - stop being so angry. Your posts are filled with so much acrimony and immature bitterness that I am tempted to ask you how old you are and who hurt you so badly.

Lastly - as I said in another thread - study the Christian faith. I believe, as Cardinal Newman said, “To be steeped in history is to cease being Protestant.”
******** **

“Elvisman,” you can keep your little delusions. You haven’t done anything in this discussion but preach at me, and you’re calling me self-righteous? Amazing.

We can add another item to my list of reasons that I’m not Catholic: people like you.

 

[Robbinson]

I agree that to be steeped in history is to cease being Protestant, and I’m glad you said that…

before lent of this year I went to RCIA, but I never finished it. I remain a traditional Anglican, but pretty much an Anglo-Papalist. And I feel like I believe fully in the Roman Church and the Pope. But the American and European Roman Christians seem so apathetic towards current situations. Just a couple days ago, I ran into a life-long Catholic, who had taught classes in a Catholic church, and who now does not attend Mass, that has never heard of Peter the Apostle being the first Pope, or that Christ gave the power to forgive sins to the Church in the Gospel of John!

So, while I believe Roman Catholic, I remain a Catholic, traditional Anglican. I’m not sure what to do next, really.

Sorry I got off-topic.

Bless you for this post - you are not alone. I share many of the same beliefs/concerns and feel like I’m in a bit of a quagmire as a result. Within the Protestant faith I am drawn to the Anglican communion because of its nexus/proximity to Catholicism - yet I also believe in Apostolic succession which therefore draws me to Rome. It is somthing I continue to pray about - so I’ll pray for both of us.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[Matariel]

Bless you for this post - you are not alone. I share many of the same beliefs/concerns and feel like I’m in a bit of a quagmire as a result. Within the Protestant faith I am drawn to the Anglican communion because of its nexus/proximity to Catholicism - yet I also believe in Apostolic succession which therefore draws me to Rome. It is somthing I continue to pray about - so I’ll pray for both of us.

Blessings,

Brian

Thanks, I’m glad I’m not alone. Anglicans have valid Apostolic Succession, due to the massive re-ordering of Anglican lines in the 1930’s. However, since then, womens’ “ordination” has diluted and corrupted institutional Anglicanism’s lines of succession.

Traditional, Catholic, Continuing Anglicans, such as myself, are under a bishop in Apostolic Succession, through Old Catholic and Independent Catholic lines, and provinces that continue tradtional male-only ordination.

However, I believe in Papal infallibility and the complete Unity of the Church, which turns me to Roman Christianity.

 

[elvisman]

I agree that to be steeped in history is to cease being Protestant, and I’m glad you said that…

before lent of this year I went to RCIA, but I never finished it. I remain a traditional Anglican, but pretty much an Anglo-Papalist. And I feel like I believe fully in the Roman Church and the Pope. But the American and European Roman Christians seem so apathetic towards current situations. Just a couple days ago, I ran into a life-long Catholic, who had taught classes in a Catholic church, and who now does not attend Mass, that has never heard of Peter the Apostle being the first Pope, or that Christ gave the power to forgive sins to the Church in the Gospel of John!

So, while I believe Roman Catholic, I remain a Catholic, traditional Anglican. I’m not sure what to do next, really.

Sorry I got off-topic.

I am so very glad that you are interested in the Catholic Church. Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would lead her into all truth - not just some truth as is the case with Protestantism.

I am sorry that you have had negative experiences with some of the people within the church. Please don’t let that discourage you. You will find such luke-warmness in individuals within every church.

One thing, though - the Anglican Church doesn’t not have valid Apostolic Succession. To have that, they would have to be in line and subordinate to Rome - which they are not.

 

[elvisman]

“Elvisman,” you can keep your little delusions. You haven’t done anything in this discussion but preach at me, and you’re calling me self-righteous? Amazing.

We can add another item to my list of reasons that I’m not Catholic: people like you.

**Hmmmm . . . such hatred and bitterness . . . :tsktsk: **

 

[Matariel]

I am so very glad that you are interested in the Catholic Church. Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would lead her into all truth - not just some truth as is the case with Protestantism.

I am sorry that you have had negative experiences with some of the people within the church. Please don’t let that discourage you. You will find such luke-warmness in individuals within every church.

One thing, though - the Anglican Church doesn’t not have valid Apostolic Succession. To have that, they would have to be in line and subordinate to Rome - which they are not.

No, it’s valid, but illicit. Such is the case with Eastern Orthodox, who have valid Apostolic Succession and Sacraments, as well as us traditional Anglicans. That is what the Roman Catholic Church teaches.

 

[elvisman]

No, it’s valid, but illicit. Such is the case with Eastern Orthodox, who have valid Apostolic Succession and Sacraments, as well as us traditional Anglicans. That is what the Roman Catholic Church teaches.

**Actually, no. **
The valid line of Apostolic Succession became null and void during the reign of Elizabeth I. There has (have?) been no valid Holy Orders since then, and consequently, no valid succession.
Pope Leo XIII officially decreed it in 1897.

 

[Matariel]

Actually, no.
**The valid **line of Apostolic Succession became null and void during the reign of Elizabeth I. There has (have?) been no valid Holy Orders since then, and consequently, no valid succession.
Pope Leo XIII officially decreed it in 1897.

No, the lines were re-ordered in the 30’s with the independent Catholic lines and Old Catholic lines.

 

[Mickey]

Why aren’t you Catholic? Tell the truth.

Do you mean “Roman/Latin Catholic”?

 

[Matariel]

Do you mean “Roman/Latin Catholic”?

Yes, that is what he means. He should be aware that there are more than just Roman Catholics. There are Orthodox Catholics, Independent Catholics, Coptic Catholics, Old Catholics, English Catholics (Traditional Anglicans) Jacobite Catholics, et cetera, et cetera…

 

[elvisman]

No, the lines were re-ordered in the 30’s with the independent Catholic lines and Old Catholic lines.

I’m sorry, Matariel, but you’re wrong:

In September, 1896, after a full and exhaustive inquiry, he (Leo XIII) issued a Bull declaring Anglican Orders to be “utterly null and void”, and in a subsequent Brief addressed to the Archbishop of Paris, he required all Catholics to accept this judgment as “fixed, settled, and irrevocable” (firmum, ratum et irrevocabile).

It stands thus in the illogical and unhistorical position of a system which is philocatholic in its views and aspirations, but hopelessly committed to heresy and to heretical communication, and built upon an essentially Protestant foundation. * (New Advent.org)*

 

[elvisman]

Yes, that is what he means. He should be aware that there are more than just Roman Catholics. There are Orthodox Catholics, Independent Catholics, Coptic Catholics, Old Catholics, English Catholics (Traditional Anglicans) Jacobite Catholics, et cetera, et cetera…

Matariel -
Some of the ones you listed and many others are not in communion with rome and therefore, not part of the Catholic Church.

They can call themselves “Catholic” all day long and it won’t make a difference. You must submit to and be in communion with the Holy See to be part of the Catholic Church.

 

[Janet_S]

No, it’s valid, but illicit. Such is the case with Eastern Orthodox, who have valid Apostolic Succession and Sacraments, as well as us traditional Anglicans. That is what the Roman Catholic Church teaches.

Elvisman was right on this one. The Catholic Church recognizes Apostolic Succession in the Orthodox churches, but not the Anglican. Nothing has changed since Leo XIII’s pronouncement.

 

[BLUEMOON74]

Actually, no.
**The valid **line of Apostolic Succession became null and void during the reign of Elizabeth I. There has (have?) been no valid Holy Orders since then, and consequently, no valid succession.
Pope Leo XIII officially decreed it in 1897.

have…plural regarding past to present…old english…i was tortured in college lol…thanks for your great posts. you offer a lot of insight, i am grateful for them, hopefully eventually others will be too.

 

[Mickey]

You must submit to and be in communion with the Holy See to be part of the Catholic Church.

Submission! Submission!

 

[BLUEMOON74]

By the way, while I do ask Catholics to point to Scripture to back up their beliefs, I do not do so expecting not to be able to back up mine. In the case of the discussion on apostolic succession…there isn’t a verse I can point to that says apostolic authority wasnt passed to ordained presbyters… because if there was no apostolic authority passed on the Bible is not going to say that it wasn’t. It will not say that it was, which is my argument vis a vie the Catholic view.

–Right! Got your point the first time, I meant, again, the entire picture, all of your posts on the reasons etc.

Well… Half of my family is Catholic (I can’t say the majority of them are practicing Catholics, unfortunately). There is somewhat of a more mutual understanding between Catholics and Lutherans on many issues. When I come here, I do not look at it any differently than if I were to go to a Presbyterian forum or a Baptist forum. I view it as a Christian forum, but lacking in many areas. So it’s always interesting to see other sides in a discussion and to interject the orthodox Lutheran opinion.

–Ok well that is pretty much what I thought. I do not go to other sites other than the faith I belong to bc I know beforehand if I do that, I am going to see something that I do not agree with. I personally would rather avoid the drama or not go looking for it, however, I am aware of the original posted question. You are certainly entitled to your opinion; just be careful when you interject…because some interjections may be the equivalent of me barging into your house and telling you that hideous green shirt you are wearing makes you look like a big pickle!

 

[Robbinson]

I can understand the attactiveness of thinking this way - and we do live in a pluralistic society which would applaud this approach/belief (and my wife would agree with you). However, the gospels are clear - if you are Christian and believe in the scriptures as the Word of God, then there is only one truth. I do believe that God has revealed himself to us through the scriptures. Now, within the framework of the scriptures, there is nevertheless room for interpretation of a broader salvation plan (thus the Catholic teaching on the possibility for salvation for some who do not know Christ, etc). (BTW, that doctrine is not shared by many Protestants).

Blessings,

Brian