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celticcrusader
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you must remember , we are not perfect just forgiven!
If you are a Christian, what is the real reason for you not being a Catholic? - 3
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elvisman
Guest
You seem very sincere about your beliefs and I respect that.Myredeemerslives church.
Just as He gave approval to Cornelius and his household. When the Holy Spirit speaks God listens,
**I do hope, however, that one day, you will see that partial truth just isn’t enough and that you finally see that the fullness of truth can only be found in the one Church established by Jesus - the Catholic Church. ****
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ckempston
Guest
I am not perfect either, but I have not been drunk, smoked, used foul language, or done any number of other “obvious” sins in quite a long time. I cannot say the same for many Catholics that I know. I think the system is broken. You can go to church, participate in the sacraments, but basically live your life any way you choose, and the Catholic church just seems to be OK with it. Again, my subjective opinion based on personal experience.
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elvisman
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It’s very nice to see that you are sinless. However, your comments are not only unfair, but probably untruthful.
As humans, try as we might, we fall. Even St. Paul pointed this out as he told of his own imperfections. This is a result of concupiscence - our proclivity toward sin.
In my personal experience there are only 2 kinds of liars:
**Those who say they’ve never sinned and those who say they’ve stopped sinning. **
I’ve seen PLENTY of good Evangelical Protestants sinning, but I realize that we all struggle. This is not the result of a “broken system” - it’s a result of our fallen nature . . .
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ckempston
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Wow, you just totally distorted what I wrote. Please go back and read it again. I never claimed that I didn’t sin, but of those things I listed, among others, I simply don’t do them. What do you think is untruthful? I am tempted with sin, and I fall short on a daily basis. I wasn’t claiming to not sin, but to live a repentant lifestyle consistent with my calling. I know many Catholics that don’t seem to do this, or even make an effort to do so, but they are in good standing with their respective churches. That’s what I’m referring to.
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elvisman
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You’re judging the Catholic Church based on the actions of a few Catholics that you have some in contact with.
You say that it’s a “broken system” because of what these people do. Who says that they are in “good standing”?
That’s what I find offensive about your post and many of the posts made by Protestants who simply don’t understand what the Church teaches - or choose to falsely represent it.
1 Cor. 6:9-10 pretty well lays out those who will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. You must remember that it was a Catholic who wrote these words and the Catholic Church who compiled the books that Protestants deem their sole authority.
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Alycin
Guest
Interesting, I live in the bible belt of Texas and about 90% of the self-proclaimed college-age Christians I know have been partying, drinking, drugging, and having premarital sex since we were all in high school.
Some of the Catholics fall into this category, but protestants hold the majority BY FAR.*
*There are fewer Catholics overall.
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Janet_S
Guest
I think these are misconceptions. People don’t talk much at Mass, and we’re really not supposed to. The Mass is about God, not about us. That’s one of the cultural difference between us and our Protestant brothers and sisters. Often we don’t even know the person sitting next to us. How can we judge them?
You say you were a nominal Catholic and you left the Church as a teenager. No doubt it was your state of mind and lack of interest in the Church that colors your memories. I guarantee that if you would become a serious, daily-Mass attending, on fire, active Catholic, your eyes would open.
You were given a treasure when you were born into a Catholic family, but you probably didn’t recognize it. Maybe some day you will.
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Janet_S
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That’s unfortunate since Catholics have the best weapon against serious, habitual sin. It’s called confession.
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ckempston
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Yeah, you’re right. “By their fruit, you will know them.” Not a difficult concept to grasp. I have repeated multiple times that this is my personal experience. Unless all the Catholics I know are totally unrepresentative of Catholics in general, then my “judgment” is right on.
It may very well have been a Catholic that wrote those words, but the Catholicism of today would likely be a foreign religion to those of Paul’s day.
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ckempston
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I’m from NY where practically everybody and their brother is Catholic. With few exceptions, the Catholics I grew up with and still know do not live “pious” lives, and other than meeting some perceived “minimum requirements” could hardly be called Christians.
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BLUEMOON74
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I feel the exact same way you do about all of the Baptists in Mississippi. There’s winners and losers in every state Kemp. In Mississippi they call them Back-seat Baptists. lol The concentrated areas of Catholicism are Louisiana, New York, Pennsylvania, some of the New England States, and New Jersey.
The midwestern states have a concentration of Latter Day Saints, Jehova Witness, etc., and the other states have a greater concentration of non-denom, Baptist, Southern-Baptist, Methodist, Protestant branches (too many to list). What happenes here is that you are associating everyday people with religion. If you grew up in Northern Georgia, you would want to be Catholic bc you would perceive Protestants the way you view Catholics. It’s easy to say all the Catholics I know do this and that, when all you are surrounded by are Catholics, with the exception of the handful of Protestants you surround yourself with, or go to Church with that are their harshest critic bc they pulled themselves out of the main-stream religion for their state to prove a point, or they had a negative experience with one of the Catholic churches there, or they dont want to deal with all of the responsibility that comes with being Catholic.
…and hey there’s no judgement here, it’s just the way that this nation is set-up and works.
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elvisman
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Your “judgement” may be right on with those individuals, just as I believe my “judgement” with certain Protestants may be. But before you go congratulating yourself on your pious life, spend a little more time praying for those people and exercising a little charity. If your posts on this forum were the only “fruits” I witnessed from you, my judgement would be severe - not that you care.
**
Again, your personal experience with Catholics - and mine with Protestants - doesn’t mean squat in relation to the beliefs of the Catholic Church (in your case) or the particular Protestant denomination (in my case).**
"By their fruits, you shall know them" applies to individuals. There are bad apples in every group.
As for the Catholic Church not looking quite the same as in St. Paul’s day - you’re absolutely correct. Thank GOD it looks different! If it didn’t that would mean that it never grew from the acorn that it was in the 1st century to the mighty oak it is today - led by the Holy Spirit.
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Robbinson
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Yikes - I’m not Catholic (I’m Protestant) but I couldn’t agree with this statement. By that measure, all Protestants have fallen from the truth as most (well over 90% I imagine) Protestants are christians in name only. I imagine that the same is true in the Catholic Church as well - a large proportion of nominal, cafeteria, Catholics (choosing what they believe in, ignoring the rest). The key is which theology holds the truth and among those who really “believe”.
Blessings,
Brian
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ckempston
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Wow, you basically attacked me, when I went out of my way to say I was making observations from my personal experience, and I even went out of my way to say that people on this board have been stark exceptions to my experience, and I’m being uncharitable?
IN FACT, this thread’s purpose was to SOLICIT the very responses I have given. Geez, if you can’t handle the answers, maybe you shouldn’t read these tough questions. Take a little context and call me in the morning.
A couple of observations/comments: You have no idea how much I pray, or what I pray for. I agree that there are bad apples in every group. I would make the same observations that I am making about the Catholic church about most churches, based on my experience with them, and with what I observe about society in general, and its degredation of everything sacred. But, we’re not talking about those churches; we’re talking about the Catholic church. That was, once again, the point of this thread, which seems to have been lost on you.
I’d also like to point out that you are seriously misconstruing my opinion of myself. My righteousness is not my own, and I believe the Bible when it says our righteous acts are like dirty rags before God; however, there is a standard of a righteous life that Jesus and the Apostles laid out, and (just another observation), if you’re not living that life, you’ll likely find yourself getting more “blows” that you expect on Judgment Day.
Observe some of my other conversations on this board. In several instances I have come to the defense of the Catholic church and Catholics, and I’ve had several meaningful, productive, and amiable conversations. This thread, by its very nature, was going to have some negativity in it. If you can’t handle that, then maybe you should stick to other conversations.
I had hoped that perhaps this conversation would turn to what can be done to clear up misconceptions (hence my original request), and discuss what both Catholics and non-Catholics alike can do to increase knowledge of God and righteousness in the world.
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ckempston
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Brian, which part do you disagree with? What I’m basically saying is that if your life looks like that of someone “in the world” every day but Sunday, you are likely “fallen from truth.” I’d say that indeed is the case with many people who claim to be Christians today, whatever their denomination.
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Robbinson
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I agree with this - perhaps I misunderstood your prior post (in which case, my bad).
Blessings,
Brian
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Jimmy_B
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Amen.
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ckempston
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Ok, sorry if my way of putting that the first time was misleading.
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Returnee
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With all due respect, there seems to be no reason to not accept the list Robbinson posted as evidence of apostolic succession, other than one’s own personal bias stating otherwise. That is, when one looks at that list, one has two choices: either interpret those passages as evidence for ordination AND apostolic succession, OR, interpret them as evidence of ordination only.
You clearly do the latter. The question though is “Why do you do the latter?” What is your reason for stating ipso facto, “Those are just evidence of ordination only.”?
The Catholic Church has Tradition, the Tradition of 2,000 years of teaching since Christ that ordination confers apostolic succession (as well as the authority you agree with). The Scriptures provided show this ordination, and the Tradition tells us apostolic succession occurs. It wasn’t until Luther et. al came on the scene that this Tradition was called into question. And the Tradition was questioned for, really, no other reason than to justify a break with the Church.
Now of course one (you) is free to make a similar charge against the Church, or me, in saying, “You’re just inserting your own bias, this ‘Tradition’ you claim, onto those verses. The point is that the verses themselves do not show apostolic succession; the plain reading only shows ordination.”
Fair enough. However, beyond the fact that such an exchange really reduces to the same, silly solo scriptura based argument that I now tend to avoid, it really begs the ultimate question which I would like to ask you now: What, if anything, in Scripture COULD convince you of apostolic succession? That is, are you expecting to find a verse that goes something like this, “I, Paul, now pass on my authority and ability as Apostle to Timothy.”? Is this the standard you seek? Is it similar? I’m curious.
As an aside, something to realize here is the fact that Lutherans, as other, historic Protestants, do not necessarily reject a role for “tradition” in the church, they (you) merely state that any such tradition cannot violate Scripture. This is the classic definition of sola scriptura, the basis of the Protestant “Reformation”. In this way, for example, Christmas as a celebration isn’t “wrong”, even though it isn’t found explicitly in Scripture, it’s a tradition that doesn’t violate Scripture.
However something that has always struck me about this situation is the fact that there are Catholic traditions that don’t violate Scripture either, and specifically, since this is the topic I’m posting about now, the concept, or “tradition”, if you will, of apostolic succession doesn’t violate Scripture. So why can’t such a view be held by anyone who truly believes in the real definition of sola scriptura?
I think I know why, the OP of this thread is most likely the reason IMO, but I’d like to hear why you don’t.
How does apostolic succession violate Scripture?
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