If you are a Christian, what is the real reason for you not being a Catholic? - 3

[fbl9]

…by fbl9,and we have evidence of things falling apart,witness the constant fractionizing outside of the church…LeeAnn i hope you will note who defined the doctrines in regards to the Holy Trinity and Christ the man and God…

I know who truly defined them for me…who defined them for you fb19?hi LeeAnn since you asked the Holy Spirit working through the church did that for me.

the way your post clarifiying what you were getting at with this one seeems to say to me:that unless you beleive something it does not come from God:IOW if you LeeAnn don’t beleive a doctrine then said doctrine does not come from God…peace

or - if I, Leeann don’t understand a doctrine, I Leeann will put my “implicit faith” in God…by prayerfully reading His word, asking humbly and faithfully that He will enable me to be able to understand and discern His truth, by the leading of the Holy Spirit…if it His truth and real and true…believe it.
Peace also fb19.

i can accept that at face value as a very good and christian way…i have to always remember though that the wicked one can also be precieved as an angel of light…

 

[fbl9]

Leeann;4139226:

…by fbl9,and we have evidence of things falling apart,witness the constant fractionizing outside of the church…

Yes…lots of different denoms outside of “the church”…just as there are lots of different opinions, different interpretations or understanding of dogmas/doctrines that are within

“the church”…it’s just not as visible…but it’s there…that is also true but the differing opinions do not take away the truth of the doctrine in question though. …till later God bless u

 

[Leeann]

i can accept that at face value as a very good and christian way…i have to always remember though that the wicked one can also be precieved as an angel of light…

Yep…I understand what you’re saying.

 

[Leeann]

Leeann;4139338:

that is also true but the differing opinions do not take away the truth of the doctrine in question though. …till later God bless u

Basic practices (or traditions) vary within the Body of Christ. But the foundation of each Christian denomination is the same. God’s divine Word is the blueprint for all Christian faith. “Christian” means follower of Jesus Christ. According to Ephesians 2:20 Jesus is the chief corner stone of God’s household! And Hebrews 13:8 says, “Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and for ever.”

His doctrines will never change.

**The Word of God proclaims that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God whose purpose on earth was to die and be raised again as atonement for the sins of all mankind. This is the basis for all Christian Doctrine. **

The Catholic Church proclaims these doctrines:

Teaching that Jesus is the Son of God sent to die for the sins of the world
God is a triune God, consisting of God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Ghost.
In accepting Jesus and serving Him, believers are granted life eternal.
Members must accept the church as having the fullness of revelation, and according to Roman Catholic catechism is the only Christian body that is “holy, universal and apostolic”
Apostolic succession is key in the faith, saying that the pope and bishops have varying degrees of authority from Jesus.
Penance and the Eucharist are required at least once a year

As in all denominations, it is important to study the Word of God for yourself. When studying the above doctrines, you will discover that not all of them come from and have a basis in the Bible.
In Hosea 4:6 God says, “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge [of God and His Word]. . .”

Know His Word and keep these two passages in mind when examining any doctrine:

**“See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ” (Colossians 1:16). **

"So then, brothers, stand firm and hold on to the teachings (traditions) we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter (epistles)" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

Paul knew that we would face false teachings and worldliness to waver from truth. He reminds us to hold onto the truth of **Christ’s ****teachings (doctrines). **

**Therefore, be sure your practices are based on truth and from your own heart with sincerity (Hebrews 10:22). **

fl19 - I didn’t write this, but I agree with what it says, so I’m posting it here (…sorry,end of longggg day and it’s just simply quicker) - please check and confirm the part about the “Catholic Church doctrines” above - and if they’re incorrect - let me know.
You’d know better on this.

Peace and God Bless

 

[fbl9]

fbl9;4139523:

Basic practices (or traditions) vary within the Body of Christ. But the foundation

of each Christian denomination is the same. God’s divine Word is the blueprint for all Christian faith. “Christian” means follower of Jesus Christ. According to Ephesians 2:20 Jesus is the chief corner stone of God’s household! And Hebrews 13:8 says, “Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and for ever.”

His doctrines will never change.

**The Word of God proclaims that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God whose purpose on earth was to die and be raised again as atonement for the sins of all mankind. This is the basis for all Christian Doctrine. **

The Catholic Church proclaims these doctrines:

Teaching that Jesus is the Son of God sent to die for the sins of the world
God is a triune God, consisting of God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Ghost.
In accepting Jesus and serving Him, believers are granted life eternal.
Members must accept the church as having the fullness of revelation, and according to Roman Catholic catechism is the only Christian body that is “holy, universal and apostolic”
Apostolic succession is key in the faith, saying that the pope and bishops have varying degrees of authority from Jesus.
Penance and the Eucharist are required at least once a year

As in all denominations, it is important to study the Word of God for yourself. When studying the above doctrines, you will discover that not all of them come from and have a basis in the Bible.
In Hosea 4:6 God says, “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge [of God and His Word]. . .”

Know His Word and keep these two passages in mind when examining any doctrine:

**“See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ” (Colossians 1:16). **

"So then, brothers, stand firm and hold on to the teachings (traditions) we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter (epistles)" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

Paul knew that we would face false teachings and worldliness to waver from truth. He reminds us to hold onto the truth of **Christ’s ****teachings (doctrines). **

**Therefore, be sure your practices are based on truth and from your own heart with sincerity (Hebrews 10:22). **

fl19 - I didn’t write this, but I agree with what it says, so I’m posting it here (…sorry,end of longggg day and it’s just simply quicker) - please check and confirm the part about the “Catholic Church doctrines” above - and if they’re incorrect - let me know.
You’d know better on this.

Peace and God Blessthanks and hi LeeAnn…one can not say they are in full communion if they don’t believe all that their church teaches as truth.ie a baptist can’t beleive infant baptism is proper and still be in full union with his/her church…holy cause it’s founder is holy and is protected by the Holy Spirit,universal when a new parish is founded it’s beliefs are same as the all parishes in the world and in the past and future…apostolic cause it’s earthly leader can be traced back the one man that Jesus said"do you love me?..Feed my sheep"…Penance and reception of the Eucharist at least once a year are not doctines rather they canonical laws…actually it should have been the sacrement of reconcillation instead of penance…if one knew the Eucharist to be true why wouldn’t one make every effort to recieve at least once a yr?the same goes for the sacrement of reconcillation…When Christ said “whoever’s sins you forgive they are forgiven and whoever’s sins you retain they are retained” how is one to know the person’s sins if said person does not tell them to you…remember the parable of the sower the part about the birds snacthing the seed away off the hard ground.let not the hardness of one’s heart cause this to happen…may i ask you LeeAnn which basic pricipal of this world does the doctrine of the Eucharist rely on?or for that matter any of the church’s doctrines…all of the church’s doctrines are based on the truth.Jesus Christ…till later may God bless u…

 

[Leeann]

Leeann;4143420:

thanks and hi LeeAnn…one can not say they are in full communion if they don’t believe all that their church teaches as truth.ie a baptist can’t beleive infant baptism is proper and still be in full union with his/her church …(but what real importance is that?..isn’t the

important thing his union with God ?)

(There was a break here and I’m assuming you’re now referring to the Catholic church in these next few sentences - )…holy cause it’s founder is holy and is protected by the Holy Spirit,universal when a new parish is founded it’s beliefs are same as the all parishes in the world and in the past and future… ( and what “founder” were you referring to there?)… apostolic cause it’s earthly leader can be traced back the one man that Jesus said"do you love me?..Feed my sheep"… "…( Well….that may be the Catholic teaching and obvious “necessary claim” for them, but that by itself doesn’t make it “true”.).Penance and reception of the Eucharist at least once a year are not doctines rather they canonical laws…actually it should have been the sacrement of reconcillation instead of penance…if one knew the Eucharist to be true why wouldn’t one make every effort to recieve at least once a yr? (well, as I understand it, as a Catholic “you just better believe it” – Council of Trent 13th Session -Canons on Eucharist – a lot of “anathemas” there if you don’t believe it – that may be one reason Catholics believe it – if they don’t – they’re out of the church and by the church’s teaching they can’t “get to God” then – pretty scarey, power controlling stuff) the same goes for the sacrement of reconcillation…When Christ said “whoever’s sins you forgive they are forgiven and whoever’s sins you retain they are retained” how is one to know the person’s sins if said person does not tell them to you… .(He was talking to the Apostles right there with Him at that time) …remember the parable of the sower the part about the birds snacthing the seed away off the hard ground.let not the hardness of one’s heart cause this to happen…may i ask you LeeAnn which basic pricipal of this world does the doctrine of the Eucharist rely on? (I believe it relies on the principle of the “world’s spirit” – not the Holy Spirit ) or for that matter any of the church’s doctrines…all of the church’s doctrines are based on the truth.Jesus Christ. (and why do you believe that - because you believe what the church has told you – they alone have the power and ability to be led by the Holy Spirit in discernment - according to who? – them of course and you “must” believe it, because you’ve placed your faith in “the church” and they’re right – why? – because they’ve “told you so ” and to make sure you believe it and follow it, they’ve added the threat that if you don’t…your salvation is at stake.”) .till later may God bless u…

Having posted that last bit - there are some of the doctrines that are indeed true - retained and kept from the Apostle’s teachings - the most obvious being that the salvation of mankind is only through Jesus - however, the church then adds that the only way to salvation is through them - (which is it?) - oh they do allow (now, since Vatican 2) that Jesus can make Himself known to those “outside of the church” (very big of them to allow that) - however, to be assured that they are on the right track and will complete the race of salvation - they must become a member of the Catholic church or they’re “anathema”.

Now I ask you fb19 - does this sound anything like the teachings of Jesus to His “church” when He walked this earth - or of the Apostles?

And finally…that’s why I’m a Christian/believer and this is the real reason for me not becoming a Catholic.

1 Thessalonians 5

19 Quench not the Spirit.
20Despise not prophesyings.
21Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Goodbye and God Bless

 

[distracted]

Yes Catholics are nice people!! However so are Methodist and Lutherans. I was a Catholic, Now Lutheran and I am the same person in Gods Eyes . t.

actually… to “correct” what i said…

i said that you were “the same person - yes. Same graces - no”

Not true… If you don’t have the same graces you used to, you ARE a different person… and that is important because we must be purified before we enter Heaven (Rev 21:27)

 

[CentralFLJames]

fbl9;4146497:

Having posted that last bit - there are some of the doctrines that are indeed true - retained and kept from the Apostle’s teachings - the most obvious being that the salvation of mankind is only through Jesus - however, the church then adds that the only way to salvation is through them - (which is it?) - oh they do allow (now, since Vatican 2) that Jesus can make Himself known to those “outside of the church” (very big of them to allow that) - however, to be assured that they are on the right track and will complete the race of salvation - they must

become a member of the Catholic church or they’re “anathema”.

Now I ask you fb19 - does this sound anything like the teachings of Jesus to His “church” when He walked this earth - or of the Apostles?

And finally…that’s why I’m a Christian/believer and this is the real reason for me not becoming a Catholic.

1 Thessalonians 5

19 Quench not the Spirit.
20Despise not prophesyings.
21Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Goodbye and God Bless

Actually the Church only anathematized those heretics who were trying to teach false teachings under a ruse of Christianity. For example, the Church does not anathematize pagans and wiccans etc. since its clear that they are not Christian and were never trying to present themselves as such. Such are not members of The Church and are left to God’s Justice for final disposition - may God have Mercy on them. But within The Christian Church the Pope and the bishops have the absolute sole and divine authority to teach and to loose and bind. It is thus proper and required that The Church teach in the strongest terms to anathematize those who try to present themselves as false authorities with false teachings. It is done to press home that specific false teachings do not follow apostolic beliefs and revelations and are blatantly offensive and contrary to Christ’s teaching and revelation. Frankly, the apostles cursed heretics in as strong or stronger terms. So the anathemas as as we would expect - both scriptural and traditional.

Galatians 1:8-9
8But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

It seems to me Leeann, that without having said it expressly you are anathematizing Catholic bishops for teaching something you do not want to hear or which you do not agree with. You are just electing to call give yourself the same authority as the pope rather than submitting to an apostolically and divinely appointed one. So why the double standard?

At least Catholic popes and bishops all have a direct apostolic link to somone who personally knew Jesus and an apostle. Apart from the Bible the Catholic Church delivered to you what’s your pedigree? How did you come into your own self appointed authority? Did you personally know anyone who personally knew an apostle or Jesus?

The problem with opinions is - everyone has one. All that matters in the afterlife is what is truth and who is the standard bearer of truth and if one had the opportunity to know truth. By coming here you have had that opportunity.

James

 

[Leeann]

Quote #290 CentralFLJames

I am simply going to disengage further dialog with you in this topic.

Just a reminder James - those are *your *words…and I certainly have no problem with them at all…or is that last eloquently phrased posting of yours an attempt to engage again with me, in further dialog on this topic.

 

[celticcrusader]

to know the Catholic Church is to know Jesus Christ. Before it was called The Catholic Church it was called The Way.

 

[fbl9]

fbl9;4146497:

Now I ask you fb19 - does this sound anything like the teachings of Jesus to His “church” when He walked this earth - or of the Apostles?

And finally…that’s why I’m a Christian/believer and this is the real reason for me not becoming a Catholic.

1 Thessalonians 5

19 Quench not the Spirit.
20Despise not prophesyings.
21Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Goodbye and God Blessi am sad to hear you say goodbye.yes it does LeeAnn:St. Luke writes of the impenitent towns.10:16"He who hears you hears me;and he who rejects you rejects me;and he who rejects me,rejects Him who sent me"…may the grace of God be on you LeeAnn

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Yeah…I’d love to see the source for the Hitler becoming Lutheran thing lol

That sounds like something from Brother Jack.​

It would not matter if every single one of Hitler’s circle were Lutheran - a religion can’t be judged fairly by its worst examples. Martin Bormann was Lutheran by background - but so what ? His values were decidedly anti-Christian, whereas Lutheranism is a Christian Church. One might as well try passing off Hitler, Himmler & Goebbels, all of them ex-Catholics, as examples of Catholics, or Stalin as Georgian Orthodox. To call people who hate a religion good examples of it is a perversion of reason, deserving only of contempt.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

So this is your understanding of “implicit faith”?

I’m just trying to make this understanding apply somehow to what we were talking about in our original conversation.
We weren’t discussing just the people who “don’t believe in God.”

In that original conversation, I posted the following excerpt in response to your statement that we had “free choice” and that you didn’t think one would be “condemned” if they disregarded the Catholic church.

I posted from the Catholic catechsim which states this:

From the Vatican Website: Catechism of the Catholic Church Part One - The Profession of Faith

181 “Believing” is an ecclesial act. The Church’s faith precedes, engenders, supports and nourishes our faith. The Church is the mother of all believers. “No one can have God as Father who does not have the Church as Mother”(St. Cyprian, De unit. 6: PL 4, 519).

Those words of St. Cyprian express a doctrine which depends for its validity on all kinds of things being true that Rome has rejected. Such as the fruitlessness of sacraments - such as baptism - conferred outside the Church. So the ancient quotation, & its modern use, do not match. Bishop Stephen of Rome destroys the Cyprianic position by insisting that heretics can confer baptism. So Cyprian is simply wrong, & was wrong in his own lifetime. So much for that quotation from him - it’s worthless, because it is not true.​

Clearly the Catholic catechism states that “they” believe people are indeed condemned if they disregard the Catholic church.

From the definition or understanding of “implict faith” that you’ve shared above, it would appear that you believe it would “over-ride” the church’s teaching in its catechism?

I do not want to put words into your mouth - I’m just trying to understand your above posting in relation to what we were actually talking about.

Thank you Cinette.

 

[Cinette]

Those words of St. Cyprian express a doctrine which depends for its validity on all kinds of things being true that Rome has rejected. Such as the fruitlessness of sacraments - such as baptism - conferred outside the Church. So the ancient quotation, & its modern use, do not match. Bishop Stephen of Rome destroys the Cyprianic position by insisting that heretics can confer baptism. So Cyprian is simply wrong, & was wrong in his own lifetime. So much for that quotation from him - it’s worthless, because it is not true.​

Yes, I do believe that there are people with implicit faith. As I have said before I have known many athiests who were outstanding human beings, who sacrificed their lives, were tortured and gave of themselves.

There is a parishioner at my Sunday parish whose husband is athiest and he always comes to the talks at the Jesuit Centre and defends the Catholic Church. He says that no other institution has done more for charity and the common good than the Catholic Church and he praises the sacrifice of priests who give up everything to take up their vocations as priests. He says he just does not have Faith - he tries:yup: .

Faith is a gift from God. Why is it that God does not give this gift to some? Who knows? His ways are not our ways. You know that parable of the labourers who were paid the same - those who worked all day and those who came in at the end? Well does that seem fair? Labour unions would have a field day on that one. Do we understand? Who knows why? We just rely on God’s mercy and KNOW that he IS a just and MERCIFUL God :ehh:

All good comes from God - we are not good just like that, just because we ***decide ***

God is full of surprises. We were told not to judge and that is what we should do. Love and expect that God will take care of those who love Him.

 

[Jimmy_B]

I don’t believe that any Atheist, is a “good” person…Atheists REJECT God…:knight1:

 

[distracted]

Faith is a gift from God. Why is it that God does not give this gift to some? R]

God does not just hand out faith to people willy nilly… arbitrarily

Faith comes from wanting God… seeking him…

and we all have a conscience (or at least we HAD one in the beginning of our lives… ) so all of us know God to some extent or another, wehther we ever step foot in a church or not…

When i was “lost out there”… floundering without the Church (though baptized Catholic as an infant)… I always had an awareness of God… and even a love for him, even though i wasn’t living for him 24/7 with all my heart as i try to now… and i believed stupid things like that he didn’t love me anymore… (One reason we so need the helps the church has… The rosary snapped me out of that false belief…).

God doesn’t just drop into some people’s lives (as a “gift”) and ignore others…

God is in everyone’s life… because we are made by Him and in his image… it is just that some people develop their faith, their love of God and some… just make excuses or what have you…

 

[distracted]

]

that the salvation of mankind is only through Jesus - however, the church then adds that the only way to salvation is through them - (which is it?) - oh they do allow (now, since Vatican 2)

there is no contradiction here whatsoever. The seeming contradiction exists only in your prejudiced mind (and i realize it is not entirely your fault - probably - that you are prejudiced… if you were raised Protestant, you come by your anti-Catholicism naturally…) In any case, as one saint once said (probably more thn one… ) The Church IS Christ… and it is interesting that i came up with that same “notion” long before i read the saint’s writings… after having spent much time in the Church Christ founded (Have you ever spent time at the Blessed Sacrament in silence?? No, i am sure you ahve not… since you are not Catholic… but you don’t have to be Catholic to do that…)…

Jesus can make Himself known to those “outside of the church” (very big of them to allow that)

You mean “Very big of Jesus to do that”…

• however, to be assured that they are on the right track and will complete the race of salvation - they must become a member of the Catholic church or they’re “anathema”.

Now I ask you fb19 - does this sound anything like the teachings of Jesus to His “church” when He walked this earth - or of the Apostles?

Absolutely… scriptures that back up the Catholic Ch being the ONe are everywhere in the Bible, either explicitly or implicitly… However, again, you have never studied with a true, informed Catholic… so you don’t know where its at… You could attend RCIA… no pressure to join… i know of this one man who attended RCIA for some 30 yrs… & i don’t know to this day if he joined (i moved out of the parish)… but anyway… He probably knows more abourt the Catholic religion than most Catholics by now… Anyway… Where was i?? I got distracted…

It would take a long time for me or anyone here to list all the sciptures that support the Catholic - and only the Ctholic - interpretation of the Bible (“take” on truth… as it were…) That’s why i think you (i think eveyrone) should take an RCIA class…

in the meantime, if you have specific questions, you can ask me - I don’t know everything about the Church but have studied it fairly in depth… and its history…

You must agree it logical that Christ established only ONE Church? I mean, does it not make sense to you that He would actually not want - or wouldn’t care that - there are now 35,000+ “christian” denominations in the world… all teching conflicting doctriens/practices…??

and if he established ONE Church - Which one is it???

 

[distracted]

I don’t believe that any Atheist, is a “good” person…Atheists REJECT God…:knight1:

i am not sure all atheists reject God. When i was very young (ignorant, un-informed, etc…) i once told my father that i didn’t know if i believed in God (the God of the Bible). It seems so weird now, to remember this… & i almost feel ashamed and embarrassed by it… but, well, you know how young people are… In any case, i think i DID… No… I KNOW i DID believe in God… i just didn’t believe in the God that some other person seemed to bleieve in… and i believed in my own particular way… without having given the subject much thought or investigation… i wasn’t catechized until i catechized myself about 10 yrs ago… Even so, i did, while out in the world, not consciously thinking about God… learn about Him nonetheless. as my life progressed… always had this mysterious, unexplored “connection” with God. … long before i realized (consciousl) that i did…

So anyway… if atheists really thought about things… and faced the realities of life… (those "un-seen: realities, that is)… they would, i am sure, realize that they really do believe in God (in goodness, in the beauty of nature, etc)…

I really don’t believe there are any atheists in the world… Even Hitler talked about God (tho no one knows whether he did that just to placate those who were Christian or what… )

 

[Cinette]

God does not just hand out faith to people willy nilly… arbitrarily

Faith comes from wanting God… seeking him…

and we all have a conscience (or at least we HAD one in the beginning of our lives… ) so all of us know God to some extent or another, wehther we ever step foot in a church or not…

When i was “lost out there”… floundering without the Church (though baptized Catholic as an infant)… I always had an awareness of God… and even a love for him, even though i wasn’t living for him 24/7 with all my heart as i try to now… and i believed stupid things like that he didn’t love me anymore… (One reason we so need the helps the church has… The rosary snapped me out of that false belief…).

God doesn’t just drop into some people’s lives (as a “gift”) and ignore others…

God is in everyone’s life… because we are made by Him and in his image… it is just that some people develop their faith, their love of God and some… just make excuses or what have you…

What you say is good but believe me I have lived closely to VERY GOOD people who didn’t believe in God. I am convinced they had implicit faith.

Why have they not received God’s gift of faith is a mystry.

 

[Leeann]

there is no contradiction here whatsoever. The seeming contradiction exists only in your prejudiced mind (and i realize it is not entirely your fault - probably - that you are prejudiced… if you were raised Protestant, you come by your anti-Catholicism naturally…)

However, again, you have never studied with a true, informed Catholic… so you don’t know where its at…

in the meantime, if you have specific questions, you can ask me - I don’t know everything about the Church but have studied it fairly in depth… and its history…

Perhaps your time would be better spent in concentrating on your own relationship with the Lord.

You must agree it logical that Christ established only ONE Church? I mean, does it not make sense to you that He would actually not want - or wouldn’t care that - there are now 35,000+ “christian” denominations in the world… all teching conflicting doctriens/practices…??

35,001+ (that’s including the Catholic church)
Hi distracted,

You probably haven’t noticed…distracted no doubt…but I’ve not been in as often…I’ve been in discussions via email with a “true,informed Catholic”.