If you attend the NO mass, what is causing the lack of faith?

[ProVobis]

There is a way to tell the truth IN LOVE.

I agree. And maybe the best way is with a whip.

from John:

{2:15} Et cum fecisset quasi flagellum de funiculis, omnes eiecit de templo, oves quoque, et boves, et numulariorum effudit æs, et mensas subvertit.

{2:15} And when he had made something like a whip out of little cords, he drove them all out of the temple, including the sheep and the oxen. And he poured out the brass coins of the moneychangers, and he overturned their tables.

{2:16} Et his, qui columbas vendebant, dixit: Auferte ista hinc, et nolite facere domum Patris mei, domum negotiationis.

{2:16} And to those who were selling doves, he said: “Take these things out of here, and do not make my Father’s house into a house of commerce.”

 

[Milesius]

I disagree. I think that some people…nuns…or people in the pews with us or people in these forumns have a Holier then thou attitude…and then if something isn’t working it MUST be someone elses fault…like the priest…not theirs.

Its not a case of anyone been holier than thou it is a case of laymen recognising their limits and responsibilities. Laymen primarily are responsible for their own family, that is their sphere of governance and responsibility.

The Father of the Parish, the priest is responsible for all the souls of the parish, not any individual layman, if things are wrong in the parish it is he who must fix it, no layman has the authority or the power to do it.

If something is wrong in my family it is my fault and I must fix it, if there is somethign wrong in the parish family then it is the priests fault and he must do something to remedy it.

Same goes for diocese with the Bishop.

 

[Milesius]

This does not absolve the laity. The problems in the Church are not solely the fault of the priests, and will not be rectified solely by the priests

The laity are whatever the priest forms them into. I think you are underestimating the power of God working thorough a holy priest.

 

[po18guy]

Yes it is the priests fault, the priest has the mission to sanctify the people, if the people are not sanctified it is because the priest failed in his mission, people cannot sanctify themselves they need God’s grace which is received THROUGH the priest.

Methinks you look to the priest for too much. All it would take is one perfect priest and the entire world would be converted. Well, God sent one, and it still did not happen.

To the question: “What is the weakness in the Church?” Was it Chesterton who answered: “I am”?

 

[CWBetts]

The laity are whatever the priest forms them into. I think you are underestimating the power of God working thorough a holy priest.

You are underestimating the responsibility of the laity. The Priest is the primary teacher in the parish, but each layperson has a responsibility to build their faith at home. Unless you think that the Priest should make a personal visit to every household in the Parish every day for the purpose of formation, the responsibility of formation of the children falls to the parents.

 

[Milesius]

You are underestimating the responsibility of the laity. The Priest is the primary teacher in the parish, but each layperson has a responsibility to build their faith at home. Unless you think that the Priest should make a personal visit to every household in the Parish every day for the purpose of formation, the responsibility of formation of the children falls to the parents.

I am not underestimating that, but the priest is responsible for the formation of the parents, everything flows down from God through the Church, through the priests to the laity, if the priest becomes a obstacle to that flow then the laity are really going to struggle as we have seen in the last few decades.

This is why St. Alphonsus Liguori says:

“When the Lord chastises a people, the chastisement begins with the priest, for he is the cause of the sins of the people, either by his bad example, or by his negligence in attending to their sanctification.”

I am with the doctor of the Church on this one, you are actually diminishing the role of priests in our salvation I feel, though I realise that your aim is the opposite.

 

[CWBetts]

I am not underestimating that, but the priest is responsible for the formation of the parents, everything flows down from God through the Church, through the priests to the laity, if the priest becomes a obstacle to that flow then the laity are really going to struggle as we have seen in the last few decades.

This is why St. Alphonsus Liguori says:

“When the Lord chastises a people, the chastisement begins with the priest, for he is the cause of the sins of the people, either by his bad example, or by his negligence in attending to their sanctification.”

I am with the doctor of the Church on this one.

So am I. His statement in no way suggests that the laity bear no responsibility. Chastisement starts with the priest. It does not end there. This attitude that all blame falls to the priest comes straight from the devil. Your spirituality is your responsibility. The priest does bear responsibility, but no priest can force his parishioners to respond to the Holy Spirit. To use an analogy of a garden, the parishioner is a flower, the Holy Spirit is the water. The priest is the garden hose. Even if the hose is faulty, the water still gets there.

 

[Milesius]

So am I. His statement in no way suggests that the laity bear no responsibility. Chastisement starts with the priest. It does not end there. This attitude that all blame falls to the priest comes straight from the devil. Your spirituality is your responsibility. The priest does bear responsibility, but no priest can force his parishioners to respond to the Holy Spirit. To use an analogy of a garden, the parishioner is a flower, the Holy Spirit is the water. The priest is the garden hose. Even if the hose is faulty, the water still gets there.

You are arguing against an argument which I have not made, I did not say there is no responsibility.

And you understanding of the priesthood is different to mine, its more protestant than Catholic. A catholic priest is the essential conduit of God’s grace, not that God couldn’t do it another way but He has chosen to bestow His grace through priests, no priests no grace.

Or in your analogy, if the hose is faulty the water does not get there because God decreed the water could only get there thorough the hose He designated for the transportation of the water.

 

[PaulinVA]

I am not absolving the laity in any of this. The person who no longer believes or no longer supports the Church has made a decision on his/her own.

However, when we look at any institution or business that is in crisis, it’s the “management team” that is responsible for the poor performance and the “management team” that has to solve the problem.

So, no matter how we got in this situation, the “management team”, in the persons of the Bishop and Priests, is the appropriate group to effect the fix.

 

[CWBetts]

You are arguing against an argument which I have not made, I did not say there is no responsibility.

And you understanding of the priesthood is different to mine, its more protestant than Catholic. A catholic priest is the essential conduit of God’s grace, not that God couldn’t do it another way but He has chosen to bestow His grace through priests, no priests no grace.

Or in your analogy, if the hose is faulty the water does not get there because God decreed the water could only get there thorough the hose He designated for the transportation of the water.

My understanding of the priesthood is 100% in line with Catholic doctrine. Have you had any university level education on the subject? I have. If the water does not get there with a faulty hose, then that also means that the efficacy of the Sacraments are dependent on the holiness of the priest. This is not the case. A host consecrated by a wicked priest is still valid. You place too much on the holiness of the priest.

 

[jmcrae]

No, no, no!

The Priest* is* responsible. If people in the parish don’t come to confession, it is not my fault. If people in the parish don’t support the parish financially, it is not my fault. Yes, of course people are responsible for their own actions. So, it’s between the clergy and those that aren’t participating.

I can not encourage people to dress appropriately. I can not urge people to believe in the real presence. I have no pulpit at all.

Actually, you do - you have your actions. If you are reverent, and well-dressed, and volunteering for a ministry, and going to Confession at the appointed times, and putting money into the collection basket, you’ll make a noticeable difference to your parish. The good example that you set will then begin to be emulated by others, and there will be a change in tone at your parish.

 

[Milesius]

My understanding of the priesthood is 100% in line with Catholic doctrine. Have you had any university level education on the subject? I have. If the water does not get there with a faulty hose, then that also means that the efficacy of the Sacraments are dependent on the holiness of the priest. This is not the case. A host consecrated by a wicked priest is still valid. You place too much on the holiness of the priest.

And you think going to university automatically makes you an authority on the subject do you? There are plenty of heretics who are doctors of theology, not that I am saying that you are one you understand just pointing out a fact.

I know the holiness of the priest does not effect the validity of sacraments, however how the priest offers the sacraments and how often does effect the sanctification of his people, and the priest does not just sanctify his people though the sacraments.

 

[CWBetts]

And you think going to university automatically makes you an authority n the subject do you?

I know the holiness of the priest does not effect the validity of sacraments, however how the priest offers the sacraments and how often he does effect the sanctification of his people.

More of a authority than one whose only education on the topic has been CCD

 

[PaulinVA]

Actually, you do - you have your actions. If you are reverent, and well-dressed, and volunteering for a ministry, and going to Confession at the appointed times, and putting money into the collection basket, you’ll make a noticeable difference to your parish. The good example that you set will then begin to be emulated by others, and there will be a change in tone at your parish.

Because I’m not doing that right now?

There are people in every parish doing what you suggest, and we still find ourselves with this problem.

But, you are right in a sense. Your suggestions are about what any of us can do. And, it’s not helping.

 

[Milesius]

More of a authority than one whose only education on the topic has been CCD

Authority to teach comes from God not from a university.

 

[PJM]

=CWBetts;6923089]Again you shift the blame. You may see yourself as a perfect Catholic, I assure you, you are not. None of us are. Go to your Parish office, make an appointment to talk who you need something, and DO SOMETHING! Stop sitting at home and denigrating the priesthood on the internet! If CCD is weak, volunteer! Ask about facilitating a Bible Study, or some other faith enrichment program. Assist your youth ministry so they can be properly formed in the faith. Be an example to your fellow parishioners. There are parish councils. Reevaluate how much you support financially. If you can afford to give more by eating at home more often, then make the sacrifice and do so. Approach your priest about Holy Hour and Benediction. There is so much more you can do than sitting at home and complaining about the priest.

The ONLY Bible most folks read is HOW WE LIVE OUR CHRISTION CATHOLIC FAITH PUBLICALLY. CW is right. Complaining gets poor results. Get involved, then friend you may have some limited right to complain.

Love and prayers,

Pat

 

[Milesius]

More of a authority than one whose only education on the topic has been CCD

What about someone who has decades of education on the topic in comparison to your what six years at university?

The worst heretics have doctorates of theology, university education proves nothing, and gives no authority to teach God’s truth, not that I am accusing you of anything by the way just pointing out that fact.

 

[Milesius]

The ONLY Bible most folks read is HOW WE LIVE OUR CHRISTION CATHOLIC FAITH PUBLICALLY. CW is right. Complaining gets poor results. Get involved, then friend you may have some limited right to complain.

Love and prayers,

Pat

The first step to fixing a problem is discovering the cause of the problem, that is not complaining, that is a practical first step.

Seminaries in many places have in the past been dens of heresy and iniquity, they are been reformed in a lot of places thanks be to God and so as the new priests are ordained you will see the problems grow less severe I guarantee you, this is because the problem has been priests, or more accurately one of the major causes.

 

[PJM]

=ProVobis;6923893]I agree. And maybe the best way is with a whip.

One example of justifed violence…



And how many examples of LOVE?

Context applied faithfully will lead to greater understanding: YES:shrug:

**Love **and prayers,
Pat

 

[PJM]

Milesius;6924148]What about someone who has decades of education on the topic in comparison to your what six years at university?

The worst heretics have doctorates of theology, university education proves nothing, and gives no authority to teach God’s truth, not that I am accusing you of anything by the way just pointing out that fact.

Formal education is very often NOT the path to truth that HUMILITY is:thumbsup:

A great saint once said “whenever in doubt TRUST OUR SACRED TRADITION.”