If you can be a good person without God then why need Him?

[PRmerger]

It is patently, blindingly obvious to me that the bible is not the word of God but the work of man. Just as the Book of Mormon probably appears to you, so does the bible appear to me.

But do you see how you have such a different standard for all things religious than you do for everything else?

That’s always been my argument with you (and other atheists). You set the bar peculiarly high for evidence for all things religious, yet live the rest of your life with such a low level of skepticism…

To wit: “I am entertaining the idea that we may not have free will”
“I don’t need to investigate the background of the airline pilot I’m entrusting my life to.”

vs

“Those 20 Arguments for the Existence of God are not compelling. Not a single one”.
“I need a Behemoth in the Sky to appear to me to tell me he exists before I will believe in him.”

 

[PRmerger]

It is patently, blindingly obvious to me that the bible is not the word of God but the work of man.

What would God’s revelation look like to you?

 

[Bradski]

That’s always been my argument with you (and other atheists). You set the bar peculiarly high for evidence for all things religious, yet live the rest of your life with such a low level of skepticism…

To wit: “I am entertaining the idea that we may not have free will”
"I don’t need to investigate the background of the airline pilot I’m entrusting my life to.

Believing in what is written in the bible and accepting normal, everyday facts about life are two different things. The fact that the guy wearing gold braid up the pointy end knows which way is up is a given.

I could investigate every pilot with whom I am likely to fly but I am certain enough to know that he or she will be competent to not have to bother. If planes were dropping out of the sky on a frequent basis, then I might change my mind. But they are not, so it is literally safe enough to accept that I’ll be safe when I next fly.

But everyone needs to make a call about the bible. Me, you and anyone else who is exposed to Christianity. And we each decide, personally, which parts are credible. For some, every single word is true. For others, like yourself, the bits that support your belief must be true. It cannot be any other way. And even then there is wide disagreement about how literal you are meant to take it.

For someone like me, who didn’t start with faith, but who is presented with the bible as the Word of God and asked to accept it as such, almost none of it is credible.

We only differ in how much we accept as being true.

And in regard to free will, there is a very wide definition of what it actually entails. I think it’s worth finding out what different people think about that in the first instance. If you think that I believe it’s just a decision about whether we are all predetermined in our actions, then you are not correct.

 

[PRmerger]

I could investigate every pilot with whom I am likely to fly but I am certain enough to know that he or she will be competent to not have to bother.

Right. Such faith you have!

Certain enough, eh?

Do you ever permit Believers to be “certain enough” about anything? About the Bible being the Word of God? About Jesus rising from the dead? About Mary being ever virgin?

But everyone needs to make a call about the bible. Me, you and anyone else who is exposed to Christianity. And we each decide, personally, which parts are credible. For some, every single word is true. For others, like yourself, the bits that support your belief must be true. It cannot be any other way. And even then there is wide disagreement about how literal you are meant to take it.

Again, what would it look like if God wrote the Bible, in your estimation?

I, personally, would think it would sound like the prose in the Koran. But that’s just me trying to imagine how a deity would write–something very flowery, mysteriously esoteric and impressive-sounding.

Kind of like the writing in the Book of Mormon. It sounds, to me, like someone trying to imagine how a deity would write.

 

[Bradski]

Right. Such faith you have!

Certain enough, eh?

Do you ever permit Believers to be “certain enough” about anything? About the Bible being the Word of God? About Jesus rising from the dead? About Mary being ever virgin?

This is not an argument that I would expect you to use. It’s Arguing With Atheists 101.

My general expectation that pilots can fly, that bridges will not collapse, that the bottle of beer I am about to open will actually contain beer, is not belief. It is not faith. It is, as I said, a reasonable expectation that any reasonable person would be expected to hold.

You do not have a reasonable expectation that the bible is the Word of God. You believe it. You have faith in it. You are certain about it in an entirely different way that you are certain that pilots can fly planes.

Personally speaking, I can’t see any reasonable person getting to God just through the bible. You need to have faith in any case. It’s faith in God that strengthens their belief in the bible, not the other way around.

And I will permit you as much certainty as you feel you need in regard to the written word. It’s your call. Just don’t try to compare it with your expectations of getting to Miami without being a bit player in an episode of Aircraft Investigation.

‘Did Jesus rise from the dead?’ requires a lot more thought than ‘what’s in that bottle of beer?’. And consequently needs a hell of a lot more evidence. In that regard, in my humble opinion, the bible does such a bad job that it makes the case for the opposition.

Again, what would it look like if God wrote the Bible, in your estimation?

I, personally, would think it would sound like the prose in the Koran. But that’s just me trying to imagine how a deity would write–something very flowery, mysteriously esoteric and impressive-sounding.

Kind of like the writing in the Book of Mormon. It sounds, to me, like someone trying to imagine how a deity would write.

I don’t know how the bible sounds in the original. But I reckon a lot of people think it was written in English. I don’t think God would write anything to us at all. Too easy to be misinterpreted.

 

[PRmerger]

This is not an argument that I would expect you to use. It’s Arguing With Atheists 101.

My general expectation that pilots can fly, that bridges will not collapse, that the bottle of beer I am about to open will actually contain beer, is not belief. It is not faith. It is, as I said, a reasonable expectation that any reasonable person would be expected to hold.

It is reasonable, yes. It is also faith.

Using your reason and having faith are one and the same thing in many cases.

The point still not being addressed is your bar for certitude is peculiarly low for something as important as trusting your life (to complete strangers, mind you!) yet extremely high for theological beliefs.

Would that you had at least a bit more congruity there.

 

[PRmerger]

You do not have a reasonable expectation that the bible is the Word of God. You believe it. You have faith in it. You are certain about it in an entirely different way that you are certain that pilots can fly planes.

You are correct in that I have faith–but, just like you, my faith is in an entity. Your faith is in an airline, or an engineering company (me, likewise). My faith is in the Catholic Church.

So we are the same–we navigate our way through reality having faith, using our reason, to come to some conclusions.

Personally speaking, I can’t see any reasonable person getting to God just through the bible.

Right.

You need to have faith in any case. It’s faith in God that strengthens their belief in the bible, not the other way around.

Indeed.

‘Did Jesus rise from the dead?’ requires a lot more thought than ‘what’s in that bottle of beer?’. And consequently needs a hell of a lot more evidence. In that regard, in my humble opinion, the bible does such a bad job that it makes the case for the opposition.

The bible does a bad job because you’re already starting from a preconceived notion: miracles can’t happen.

But in science, isn’t that considered experimental bias?

I don’t know how the bible sounds in the original. But I reckon a lot of people think it was written in English. I don’t think God would write anything to us at all.

There’s that bias again. And that impossibly high bar. And that circular reasoning.

There’s nothing that could be written that could be God’s Word because you’ve already established in your mind that there’s nothing God could write. Period. Right?

So how in the world could you ever be open to the idea that the bible is the Word of God if you’ve already decided God wouldn’t do this.

It’s like saying, “I will believe in God when a big behemoth appears in the sky and tells me he’s god.” But, “I wouldn’t believe in a big behemoth that appeared in the sky saying he’s god because science could explain that. Maybe it’s an alien, right?”

There is an impossible standard you’ve established for yourself.

Nothing will permit you to reason your way to a belief in the bible as the Word of God.

You’ve already closed your mind to the possibility that God would reveal himself. You’ve already narrowed your mind to the idea that miracles can’t happen.

Too easy to be misinterpreted.

That’s why we have a Church!

 

[Bradski]

The point still not being addressed is your bar for certitude is peculiarly low for something as important as trusting your life (to complete strangers, mind you!) yet extremely high for theological beliefs.

Would that you had at least a bit more congruity there.

I set the bar at the same level as you do in regard to everyday matters. Neither of us feel the need to check the qualifications of the pilot when we fly or study the structural calculations for the bridge we are about to cross. That level is quite low for both of us and for every other person on the planet unless they have some serious psychological problems.

I would suggest that trusting in the tenets of a particular religion is of a different order of belief entirely. I think that you might be offended if I suggested that your belief in God is as perfunctory as your expectation that pilots can fly.

The bible does a bad job because you’re already starting from a preconceived notion: miracles can’t happen.

You have this the wrong way around. The bible was partly the cause of me thinking that miracles can’t happen. There was so much I couldn’t believe (apart from the miracles), that it cast doubt on the whole narrative. If you can’t believe that the story happened as written it becomes exceptionally difficult to accept individual episodes.

I didn’t start with disbelief when I started studying the bible in more detail. It was the study that caused the doubt.

There’s nothing that could be written that could be God’s Word because you’ve already established in your mind that there’s nothing God could write. Period. Right?

You were asking me (obviously) what I would think as a Christian. As a Christian (and it’s obviously difficult to answer as an atheist) I don’t think I would expect any written word from Him.

 

[PRmerger]

I set the bar at the same level as you do in regard to everyday matters.

Trusting your life to complete strangers is not an everyday matter.

It’s curious indeed that you consider that so mundane. You don’t even realize, Brad, how much faith you’re using, and how low the bar is you’ve set…

for life and death matters.

Yet it is impossibly high for theological matters.

Neither of us feel the need to check the qualifications of the pilot when we fly or study the structural calculations for the bridge we are about to cross. That level is quite low for both of us and for every other person on the planet unless they have some serious psychological problems.

Right. We use faith and reason to come to an understanding of reality.

But for some reason you demand ONLY reason to come to an understanding of God. And even then, when at least 20 reasons have been presented to you, even reason alone cannot convince you.

Why is that?

 

[PRmerger]

You have this the wrong way around. The bible was partly the cause of me thinking that miracles can’t happen. There was so much I couldn’t believe (apart from the miracles), that it cast doubt on the whole narrative. If you can’t believe that the story happened as written it becomes exceptionally difficult to accept individual episodes.

What parts couldn’t you believe? That there was a magistrate of Syria named Quirinius?

That people at unleavened bread on the Passover?

That women wore veils?

What parts?

You were asking me (obviously) what I would think as a Christian. As a Christian (and it’s obviously difficult to answer as an atheist) I don’t think I would expect any written word from Him.

Ah, I see now.

But that’s a little bit strange. Jesus came. Jesus is God. Jesus taught some things. But we don’t have any way to read about what he taught and did?

How do you reconcile that?

 

[unioman]

Regarding the bread of life discourse in John 6, you said:

He emphasised it three times! Not only did this event apparently occur without any shadow of doubt whatsoever and is reported exactly as it happened, but the exact words that Jesus used were apparently recorded without error as he said them and then transcribed verbatim.

How do you know that this event was not reported as it happened? You really assume a lot - you think proof is only needed on the side of the believer. Well then, if you claim you know the truth and you believe this account is fiction or inaccurate, let’s see your proof?

This was written by John who was there. If someone tells you that their flesh is real food and their blood real drink, I think you would probably recall that, don’t you? The culture back then was much different than ours, they were much more oral and they recalled things much better than we do.

You never mentioned what you thought about the Eucharistic miracles I mentioned or about people being healed “in the name of Jesus”. That is evidence that you prefer to avoid because it is evidence that science must declare a miracle. If you were to admit that something can happen contrary to nature, you must admit that there is at the very least, something supernatural at work. If you admit that someone is healed when someone prays that Jesus heals them and they are - you must admit that there is certainly the possibility that Jesus is in fact alive and that he responded to the prayer of faith.

 

[Bradski]

Trusting your life to complete strangers is not an everyday matter. It’s curious indeed that you consider that so mundane. You don’t even realize, Brad, how much faith you’re using, and how low the bar is you’ve set…

Of course it’s mundane. It is an everyday matter. Do you ever consider at all the fact that your life and the lives of your children are entirely dependent on every single person that drives past you? Do you worry about the driver of the train of the bus? That he is competent and sober? Just ask anyone at all wherever you work if they ever consider such things on a daily basis.

That pilots can fly and people are competent drivers is not faith or trust – it is an entirely reasonable expectation. And to compare that reasonable, everyday and mundane expectation to religious faith is a non starter.

What parts couldn’t you believe? That there was a magistrate of Syria named Quirinius? What parts?

Me listing everything in the bible into headings such as:

Definitely True
Possibly True
Doubtful
Improbable
Impossible etc etc

…is not going to serve much purpose. You are going to have to accept that I do not find the bible a trustworthy narrative.

But that’s a little bit strange. Jesus came. Jesus is God. Jesus taught some things. But we don’t have any way to read about what he taught and did?

You do have a way to read about it. In the bible. I personally don’t accept it as a trustworthy record.

 

[Bradski]

This was written by John who was there.

So if I checked there wouldn’t be any scholarly articles casting doubt on that statement? Do we take it that this is a well known, universally accepted and uncontroversial fact?

 

[tonyrey]

As a Christian (and it’s obviously difficult to answer as an atheist) I don’t think I would expect any written word from Him.

Would you expect God to leave us completely in the dark about our purpose in life?

 

[Bradski]

Would you expect God to leave us completely in the dark about our purpose in life?

I’d like to think that the bible isn’t the only guide to your purpose in life. In fact, I sincerely hope it isn’t.

 

[PRmerger]

I’d like to think that the bible isn’t the only guide to your purpose in life.

This is the Catholic position. Catholicism is not a religion of the book.

 

[Winterwolf00]

I am older now (mid-50s), but when I was young I babysat for a couple who came up the sidewalk holding hands. How romantic! I thought.

A week later, the husband was out the door and into his girlfriend’s apartment.

Yes, there are many people who seem wonderful on the outside, but what is going on inside? We will never know.

And our ideas of “good” in this society are really very lax! One can commit a lot of sins while still being considered “nice” because they get along well with people (so, btw, do con artists), give money to the poor (as do corporations for the tax breaks), etc, etc, etc.

Used to be that going to church every Sunday was included in the concept of being good, and longer ago that holiness was considered part of being good.

Don’t fall for man’s superficial ideas–follow God and His ideas!

Correct me if I’m wrong but are you equating people who are really bad on the inside to people who don’t believe?
Because that is horribly insulting, ignorant, and bigoted.

 

[tonyrey]

I’d like to think that the bible isn’t the only guide to your purpose in life. In fact, I sincerely hope it isn’t.

The New Testament is my main guide to the fundamental purpose of life - which is non-existent in the materialist’s purposeless scheme of things.

If you believed in God would you expect Him to leave us completely in the dark?

 

[Winterwolf00]

The New Testament is my main guide to the fundamental purpose of life - which is non-existent in the materialist’s purposeless scheme of things.

If you believed in God would you expect Him to leave us completely in the dark?

False actually.

 

[Bradski]

The New Testament is my main guide to the fundamental purpose of life…

Lots of good stories in there, Tony. If you only followed the teachings in there you wouldn’t go far wrong.