If you can be a good person without God then why need Him?

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Of course it’s mundane. It is an everyday matter.
That you treat it with nonchalance is not the same as it actually being mundane.

It’s just an unexamined aspect of your life.

Having an attitude of I’m “certain enough” about whether the pilot who flies you and your family around because you don’t care to examine the evidence confirming whether your “certain enough” is warranted…is odd.

…when compared to your very very stringent (and impossibly high) standard for certitude with the existence of God.

I know some folks who do this with the most fundamental (and profoundly important!) questions of life–like, does God exist? do I love this person enough to marry her?

They shrug and say, “I’m certain enough”.

It’s a peculiar way to live life, and a rather unfulfilling way, I estimate.
Do you ever consider at all the fact that your life and the lives of your children are entirely dependent on every single person that drives past you? Do you worry about the driver of the train of the bus? That he is competent and sober? Just ask anyone at all wherever you work if they ever consider such things on a daily basis.
I trust and have faith, Brad.

So do you. That’s what I’m saying.
That pilots can fly and people are competent drivers is not faith or trust – it is an entirely reasonable expectation. And to compare that reasonable, everyday and mundane expectation to religious faith is a non starter.
Except don’t you find it peculiar that you haven’t examined the evidence–ever--for the pilot’s ability to fly?

Yet how many times have you demanded evidence for God’s existence in dialogue with believers?
 
Me listing everything in the bible into headings such as:

Definitely True
Possibly True
Doubtful
Improbable
Impossible etc etc

…is not going to serve much purpose.
Not only that, but it would be supremely borrrrrrringggg.

But it would be fascinating to examine what you use as your canon for determining the veracity of the particular items.

I suspect that one of your criteria might be: “If it’s found in another text then I might believe it’s true.” Yes? For example, in the Annals of Tacitus, he mentions that a man named Jesus was executed by a man named Pontius Pilate. Does that give credence to what is in the NT, then?

And another might be, “It’s just a feeling I have”, which would be very, very odd for an atheist to use…so I hope that’s not one of your criteria.

And another would be: if it’s miraculous then I wholeheartedly reject it.

But that would be begging the question, right/
You are going to have to accept that I do not find the bible a trustworthy narrative.
I think it’s evaluator bias that you’re demonstrating.
 
I know some folks who do this with the most fundamental (and profoundly important!) questions of life–like, does God exist? do I love this person enough to marry her?
I don’t expect (and neither do you) anyone to spend much time investigating the credentials of Qantas pilots because they are flying to Bali. And it’s not something I would do myself (and neither would you).

But if something is important to each of us, then indeed it would be odd to treat it lightly. If you are thinking of moving house, or even state or country, or getting a different job, right up to the big ones such as lifetime commitments and children (and a commitment to God), then I would expect anyone contemplating any of these to think very long and hard about them.
But it would be fascinating to examine what you use as your canon for determining the veracity of the particular items.

I suspect that one of your criteria might be: “If it’s found in another text then I might believe it’s true.” Yes? For example, in the Annals of Tacitus, he mentions that a man named Jesus was executed by a man named Pontius Pilate. Does that give credence to what is in the NT, then?
That account sounds quite credible to me, so I tend to believe that there was someone named Jesus. But hopefully not sounding too trite, I’ll go back to the Papillion book where vast chunks of dialogue are written in quotes and you are expected to accept that it is all verbatim. It’s a great story but do you really expect me to believe that it happened exactly as written? Of course not.

In an earlier post, Unioman suggested that John’s report of Jesus was entirely credible. But am I expected to believe that Jesus said exactly that at that time exactly as was written? And that He said it not once or twice, but three times?

If it was meant to be taken as a story about what someone called Jesus probably did or might have done, then it might be acceptable in some way. But it is meant, as Unioman said, to be taken literally. And maybe he didn’t know, but not only is that not credible by any stretch of the imagination, but the authorship of the Gospel itself is far from being certain. In fact, the majority of scholars suggest it was written by more than one person decades after the events described.

I can’t recall who I was talking to last month, let alone what was said, let alone be in a position to accurately quote it.

So taking perhaps one of the more important canonical gospels and reaching, for me, the conclusion that it cannot be trusted as even a reasonably accurate record of what happened and it’s downhill all the way from there.

I’m reading ‘What It Takes - The Way To The White House’ about the '88 presidential campaign. This is a story of what really are ordinary men aiming for an extraordinary position. And the process they and their families have to go through. What might be surprising, although not so much for a cynic like me, is how these men need to be portrayed to the public to even get close to being in the race, let alone get their eyes on the prize.

A brief encounter with a racist café owner becomes a young life spent fighting for equal rights (‘I remember one time in this restaurant…’). Years spent shortchanging farmers for oil rich lands and pocketing millions becomes a fight for America’s independence from the Middle East. Joining the marines being one of the vary few options open save a lifetime working the land becomes doing your part to protect American Values.

The point being, if you want to put someone in a good light, because you think he’s a good man, or you think others should think it or someone else thinks it, then the truth takes a back seat. Hyperbole is the order of the day. Third hand ‘He might have’ becomes first hand ‘I did’. A few interested passersby become crowds of supporters. Polite applause becomes a standing ovation. A rambling speech becomes wide ranging. One to half a dozen uninterested people becomes intimate. Over excited becomes passionate.

And all this in recent memory. All that spin. All that fluff. All those reporters and cameras and tapes, newspapers and magazine articles and most people still had no idea of the person behind the hype.

Now find some scraps of parchment about what happened in an illiterate part of the world two thousand years ago and tell me that what I have in my KJV is an accurate account of those times.
 
That account sounds quite credible to me, so I tend to believe that there was someone named Jesus. But hopefully not sounding too trite, I’ll go back to the Papillion book where vast chunks of dialogue are written in quotes and you are expected to accept that it is all verbatim.
Before I read any further, I must address this.

You’ve mentioned the “verbatim” part several times and I am not sure why you keep mentioning it here on a Catholic forum.

I believe that you are operating under a misapprehension about how the Catholic Church views Sacred Scripture. There is no injunction for Catholics to believe that the words of Boaz to Ruth were recorded “verbatim”. Or that Judas; words to Annas and Caiaphas are exactly what is written in the King James Version of the bible.

That’s just ga-ga la-la nonsense and it belongs on a Fundamentalist forum.

Not a Catholic one.
 
The point being, if you want to put someone in a good light, because you think he’s a good man, or you think others should think it or someone else thinks it, then the truth takes a back seat.
That is an excellent point, and it should help you to give more credibility to the writings in the New Testament, especially the gospels and the book of Acts. If the disciples wanted to setup their own religion and wanted to bring more credibility to it, they would certainly have portrayed themselves as bright, honorable, … without fault as much as possible. And certainly they would have portrayed Jesus in a way that would appeal to the world.

But instead, we see them portrayed as people who denied Jesus, who argued about which one of them was the greatest, who were slow to believe - especially when it came to believing that he rose from the dead. And they repeated statements of Jesus that would certainly have turned off the Jewish people (my flesh is real food, …). Why would they do that if their goal was not to present the truth of what they experienced? They wouldn’t.

If their goal was to spread lies about Jesus’ resurrection, certainly they would have renounced it all when it was a choice between choosing their life or their lie. Christianity spread during great persecution - not because it was built on lies, but because it was preached, as St. Paul states, with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power (1 Corinthians 2:4). People experienced the healings and other miracles spoken about in scripture which gave evidence for the resurrection of Jesus and his authority. And we still experience it today as I mentioned in an earlier post. The question is, will you look at the evidence God is providing you with? I hope you do.
 
Personally speaking, I can’t see any reasonable person getting to God just through the bible.
Let this be noted: we are agreed on the above point.

I think our dialogue is best limned this way:
  1. Does God exist? discuss, discuss, discuss
  2. Did Jesus exist? discuss, discuss, discuss
  3. Did Jesus establish a Church? discuss, discuss, discuss
  4. Did the Church give us the Bible? (No need to discuss this. This is an incontrovertible, historical fact).
  5. Is the Bible the Word of God? discuss, discuss, discuss
  6. What does the Bible say? discuss, discuss, discuss
I kind of think it’s pointless to discuss point 6 until we’ve agreed on point 1.

But, it’s not the hill I want to die on, and I love discussing all of the above, so if someone is adamantine that point 3 (or 4, or whatever) is what needs to be addressed at the moment, I will go there.
 
I think our dialogue is best limned this way:
  1. Does God exist? discuss, discuss, discuss etc
Before I address that, let me say that I appreciate that you might not treat the bible as being written verbatim. Notwithstanding that, many do, including many Catholics (and yes, I’m talking about you Unioman!). And that’s the way it was written. To give a sense that Jesus did exactly this, that Peter said exactly that, that Mary did exactly this. That these things happened just as written. That, for all the reasons I have given, simply doesn’t ring true at all. And therefore casts huge doubts on the whole story.

Now the order in which you ‘tick the boxes’ to come to a belief in God I guess might vary from person to person. If you are a committed Christian before you start studying the bible, then I’m not sure if you read it critically, with an open mind, or whether you feel you must overlook its obvious failings and trust it as the word of God.

But if you haven’t committed, I can tell you from personal experience, it’s very difficult to get the show on the road when you are constantly scribbling ‘not credible!’ in the margin of almost every page.

There’s that old saw about potential priests and the best way to give them doubts about their his faith – simply send them to a seminary and get them to study theology. When I didn’t know much about Christianity (which I think is par for the course for most people) I found it relatively easy to accept. The more I learnt, the less I believed until I eventually reached a point when I knew too much to be able to accept any of it.
 
When I didn’t know much about Christianity (which I think is par for the course for most people) I found it relatively easy to accept. The more I learnt, the less I believed until I eventually reached a point when I knew too much to be able to accept any of it.
Since you don’t believe in God, you have already decided before you read a thing about Christianity that it was all wrong.

What for you is the single most unbelievable thing about not believing in God?

Do you have some kind of proof that there is no God?

What is the single most unbelievable thing about Christianity for you?
 
Full communion with God is the purpose of life. That’s what the Catholic Church gives us through Jesus.
It may be the purpose of YOUR life as you’ve decided it but the purpose of other’s lives are for them to decide not you.
 
Since you don’t believe in God, you have already decided before you read a thing about Christianity that it was all wrong.

What for you is the single most unbelievable thing about not believing in God?

Do you have some kind of proof that there is no God?

What is the single most unbelievable thing about Christianity for you?
you have already decided before you read a thing about Christianity that it was all wrong
Which is the exact opposite of what he said so you’re just assuming this for no reason.
What for you is the single most unbelievable thing about not believing in God?
What a strange thing to ask someone who doesn’t believe.
Do you have some kind of proof that there is no God?
The lack of proof is the reason actually.
 
The lack of proof is the reason actually.
You have lack of proof that there is a multiverse, but odds are you believe one exists anyway.

You can’t even prove to yourself that you exist, yet you believe you exist anyway.

Or do you not believe you exist because you can’t prove it? :confused:
 
If the purpose in life is a relationship with god then at least 2/3 of humanity ARE in the dark.
How do you get the two thirds figure? Are you saying two thirds of humanity are atheists?

Cite your source, please. :confused:
 
Which is the exact opposite of what he said so you’re just assuming this for no reason.

What a strange thing to ask someone who doesn’t believe.

The lack of proof is the reason actually.
Lack of proof is not a rational basis for any ideology whatsoever!
 
Read the near death experience of howard shore. He was an aetheist who ended up in hell but was given a second chance. Aetheism is a mortal sin because it breaks the first commandment ‘Though shalt not have strange gods before me.’
Aetheism can lead to hell. The evidence of God and all God’s gifts is all around us so aetheism is a complete perversion and lie to oneself in the face of living with all God’s gifts and not even acknowledging God’s existence and He 's right before your eyes behind everything in front of you

Catholics have been given more than any other faith because they have the truth. They have the sacraments handed down by Jesus from 2000 years ago. In the bible Jesus said ‘to he whom more has been given will more be asked for.’ Because you are a catholic who knows the Truth of the Sacraments, you are obliged under mortal sin to go to mass on every Sunday, it’s also a venial lesser sin not to pray, but to break any of the commandments is a mortal sin, even if you decide you don’t need God

Also:
If you are a catholic. And you know in your heart of hearts that God is real and you believe your faith. Then it is a mortal sin to leave the church, it’s a mortal sin to not go to mass on Sundays. It’s a mortal sin because we know He’s real, and we know He’s Truly Present in the Eucharist on Sundays, and it’s a great sin to turn our back on God to his face.
If you die in a state of mortal sin, unrepented, unconfessed, you end up in hell. You cannot get into heaven in a state of mortal sin.

QUOTE=PelagiathePenit;12388314]There are many good people who are atheists and agnostics. Some of them are better than Catholics and Christians I have known personally. I just always wonder if you can control your own selfish or evil impulses and you truly love your neighbor as yourself, why would you need God or religion? When I think people who need God, I think those with issues like alcoholism, promiscuity, poor self-esteem, poor, etc. If you are kind, well-put together person, why would you need to believe in God? What difference would it make in your life anyways? Some people can find peace within themselves, they are very independent and self-reliant and kind. Why need God? If we have full control over our decisions, why do we often to choose to sin? Why can’t people simply stop sinning, why do we need Jesus’s redemption or forgiveness at all if it is our own choice? Or are humans so helpless they honestly cannot stop sinning?
 
read the near death experience of howard shore. He was an aetheist who ended up in hell but was given a second chance. Aetheism is a mortal sin because it breaks the first commandment ‘though shalt not have strange gods before me.’
aetheism can lead to hell. The evidence of god and all god’s gifts is all around us so aetheism is a complete perversion and lie to oneself in the face of living with all god’s gifts and not even acknowledging god’s existence and he 's right before your eyes behind everything in front of you

catholics have been given more than any other faith because they have the truth. They have the sacraments handed down by jesus from 2000 years ago. In the bible jesus said ‘to he whom more has been given will more be asked for.’ because you are a catholic who knows the truth of the sacraments, you are obliged under mortal sin to go to mass on every sunday, it’s also a venial lesser sin not to pray, but to break any of the commandments is a mortal sin, even if you decide you don’t need god

also:
If you are a catholic. And you know in your heart of hearts that god is real and you believe your faith. Then it is a mortal sin to leave the church, it’s a mortal sin to not go to mass on every sundays. It’s a mortal sin because we know he’s real, and we know he’s truly present in the eucharist on sundays, and it’s a great sin to turn our back on god to his face.
If you die in a state of mortal sin, unrepented, unconfessed, you end up in hell. You cannot get into heaven in a state of mortal sin.

Also:
Many many many catholic speakers will tell you. The world is passing away. It is not permanent. We will all die and face god and be given a reward for all eternity lasting forever and ever. The world gives a type of pleasure that does not last. Anyone who prays and keeps god’s commandment and the sacraments has god’s own peace, so beautiful a peace that jesus said in the bible, ‘my peace i give you, not as the world gives peace, but my peace i give you.’ those who are true catholics have god’s own peace, joy and love that is out of this world. I would not swap god’s peace for the world, for the lottery, for anything, it is so special. You cannot truly be happy without god. God is the source of all happiness. St augustine wrote himself: ‘our hearts are restless until they rest in you o lord.’ a lot of people without god live with that restless emptiness and lack of peace, happiness as joy that only god can give.
We were made to love god -that’s why god made the human race, if you break this purpose for you -you will be unhappy.

Quote=pelagiathepenit;12388314]there are many good people who are atheists and agnostics. Some of them are better than catholics and christians i have known personally. I just always wonder if you can control your own selfish or evil impulses and you truly love your neighbor as yourself, why would you need god or religion? When i think people who need god, i think those with issues like alcoholism, promiscuity, poor self-esteem, poor, etc. If you are kind, well-put together person, why would you need to believe in god? What difference would it make in your life anyways? Some people can find peace within themselves, they are very independent and self-reliant and kind. Why need god? If we have full control over our decisions, why do we often to choose to sin? Why can’t people simply stop sinning, why do we need jesus’s redemption or forgiveness at all if it is our own choice? Or are humans so helpless they honestly cannot stop sinning?
 
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