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Augustinian
Guest
You’re asking for a lot in a nation as large and diverse as America
If you could, what changes if any would you make to the Ordinary Form?
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Ryan1
Guest
It is only the will to do that is lacking.
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Augustinian
Guest
Its a matter of choices. If returning to Latin and mastering the liturgical rules for Latin Mass were the priorities, of course it could be accomplished. But other things would have to be put on the back burner to do it.
The other point is that Latin Mass puts the work on the priest and altar boys, instead of spreading it around to readers and EM’s and the congregation gathered. Numerous Catholics who had big parts in the Mass, would get knocked down in their role. It would be pretty awkward for a lot of people
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MagdalenaRita
Guest
I understand that. It would certainly help Catholics to have just a few moments of quiet after communioin to give thanks quietly and reflect. Perhaps more would believe in the real Presence. Typically, at least what I remember, it had been that way in the past. After communion the priest himself would sit down and there would be a moment of quiet reflection but at least at my parish, that is gone.
It seems we are in such a hurry. We receive Our Lord and then run out the door.
It is also difficult to be quiet after communion when the guitars are playing but I try and if you are quiet and trying to pray while others are singing, that becomes cause for another thread: “why don’t Catholics sing?”
It seems we are in such a hurry. We receive Our Lord and then run out the door.
It is also difficult to be quiet after communion when the guitars are playing but I try and if you are quiet and trying to pray while others are singing, that becomes cause for another thread: “why don’t Catholics sing?”
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Ryan1
Guest
Learning Latin is not difficult. It is easy enough that all priests used to do it.
As for those with liturgical roles in the EF, most are not the proper individuals for those roles, which are clerical in nature.
It might be humbling for some. What’s wrong with that? This is the Catholic Church, not the “Church of Nice.”
As for those with liturgical roles in the EF, most are not the proper individuals for those roles, which are clerical in nature.
It might be humbling for some. What’s wrong with that? This is the Catholic Church, not the “Church of Nice.”
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Augustinian
Guest
A lot of educated people, not just priests used to learn Latin.
But that doesn’t mean it isn’t difficult.
A quote from back in the day shows the stress learning Latin can cause.
Latin is a language,
Dead as Dead Can Be,
First it Killed the Romans,
Now It’s Killing Me.
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MagdalenaRita
Guest
I think that is the point. Many roles of the priest would return to him. There would maybe be more altar boys wanting to participate in Mass if they can see a greater role of the priest. If altar boys returned we could maybe see a rise in the number of young men going into the priesthood.
It wouldn’t hurt to have fewer EM and see lay people return their roles back to the priest. That would be awesome.
These things could help people understand and come to believe in the Real Presence and that it is a sacrifice.
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MagdalenaRita
Guest
Many homeschoolers are teaching their young children latin.
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Augustinian
Guest
Recruiting and training altar boys in the Latin Mass would be another major effort.
First, when Latin Mass was the only Mass, altar boys were a lot older. 12 and 13 would be the general age in most places for rookie altar boys.
2nd, and even more critical, altar boys were recruited from the parish school. If you weren’t a student there, in most cases, you couldn’t do it. Training was done after and before school. The boys would start by serving early AM weekday Masses before getting assigned to Sunday mornings. When someone died, they could be taken out of class to serve as they were often on the premises.
Further, back in the 1960’s and before, the church was most likely in the neighborhood and kids could make it to church without a ride from mom or someone else- for both the training as well as the assigned Masses.
Sure, all of this is definitely doable, but it is a major effort especially as the infrastructure has to be rebuilt and society has changed since the mid 1960’s.
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MagdalenaRita
Guest
I understand what you are saying, society has changed and it is a lot of work. There are people doing it though. There are diocesan parishes who are now training young men to be altar boys as the desire for the Latin Mass increases, Fssp parishes and other traditional orders in communion with Rome are increasing around the world and are training altar boys.
My thought is, if it is worth having, and it is, it is worth doing and putting in the effort.
As this article says,“Men and women both have a yearning for the sacredness of God; it is how we are all wired,” said Cunningham. He described the ancient liturgy as bearing a particular attractiveness.
Latin Mass Altar-Boy Camp Draws Strong Interest
Youth from four states attended the three-day camp in South Carolina, praying and playing sports together while learning how to serve the ancient Mass rite.
www.ncregister.com
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Ann_Stanton
Guest
After reviewing all of the posts, my impression is that the posters on CAF believe that the OF should be eliminated and return to the EF. You can not “change” the OF if you mean it should be the EF; therefore, this discussion is not about changing the OF.
That’s a very broad brush stroke that isn’t true. There are a good many of us on CAF who love the Ordinary Form of the Mass. As my recent post on this thread states, I would actually prefer that all Latin be REMOVED from the Ordinary Form. I think liturgically, the OF would be a cleaner and a more beautiful liturgy if it was only celebrated only in the vernacular and not a mishmash of Latin and the vernacular.
But yes, there are many vocal members here on CAF who sadly dislike the OF and would probably prefer that it was suppressed. But don’t think that most of us on CAF would want that.
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Catholicwife32
Guest
I would look both to the EF AND the Orthodox churches for insight. I think parishes should be able to have their local customs surrounding the liturgy but that it has to be oriented to prayerful participation. Granted, I’m very attracted to the east right now. I even think having pews was a bad idea. Some Orthodox churches do not even allow the homily to come until after the liturgy is over. The homily was placed where it was for Catechucums who had been excused from what would be the liturgy of the Eucharist. So those not yet in communion would receive some instruction DURING the second part of the liturgy.
The Reformation i what brought about a focus on teaching. Pews were put in as more people wanted to sit down for instruction, but I think we’re too Protestant in that the laity has forgotten how to pray. It’s too intellectual. The priest’s homily is not as important as we think it is. Education in the faith should be a separate thing altogether, and we should be less concerned with those who are not motivated to receive an education or to worship with us. We should trust God to lead them to the Church rather than fear for their salvation.
To be honest, though, I’m not sure if I’m about to convert to Orthodoxy or remain. The big thing is that I think the schism between the east and the west needs to be healed. We need to recognize that salvation is not acheived through a purely intellectual endevour. We must pray and we must give people access to the sacraments. And so my whole thing is “How can I cut myself off from the liturgy if the only churches around me are Catholic and not orthodox?” I feel I should strive to follow Christ where he leads, but not be so prideful I am unwilling to attend an imperfect liturgy.
The Reformation i what brought about a focus on teaching. Pews were put in as more people wanted to sit down for instruction, but I think we’re too Protestant in that the laity has forgotten how to pray. It’s too intellectual. The priest’s homily is not as important as we think it is. Education in the faith should be a separate thing altogether, and we should be less concerned with those who are not motivated to receive an education or to worship with us. We should trust God to lead them to the Church rather than fear for their salvation.
To be honest, though, I’m not sure if I’m about to convert to Orthodoxy or remain. The big thing is that I think the schism between the east and the west needs to be healed. We need to recognize that salvation is not acheived through a purely intellectual endevour. We must pray and we must give people access to the sacraments. And so my whole thing is “How can I cut myself off from the liturgy if the only churches around me are Catholic and not orthodox?” I feel I should strive to follow Christ where he leads, but not be so prideful I am unwilling to attend an imperfect liturgy.
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Augustinian
Guest
A lot of people think, it would be “no problem” or “easy”.
The truth is that it wasn’t easy to move from Latin to the vernacular and if the reverse trip is made, that will be disruptive as well.
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MagdalenaRita
Guest
Yes, I agree. Many Catholics in the past felt they had their faith pulled out from under them and it was disruptive. Restoration of the sacred will have to be done slowly and also be done as best as it can in a nondisruptive way.
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Ryan1
Guest
How old must a boy be to serve at the altar?
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Augustinian
Guest
I’ve seen kids as young as 7 or 8 in recent years.
When Latin Mass was the only Mass, older kids were recruited, 7th or 8th graders, that could make it to church on their own. When a kid is 12 or 13, it was almost like their 1st job, as they got gratuities to serve funerals and got time off from classes.
When Latin Mass was the only Mass, older kids were recruited, 7th or 8th graders, that could make it to church on their own. When a kid is 12 or 13, it was almost like their 1st job, as they got gratuities to serve funerals and got time off from classes.
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OraLabora
Guest
Well God clearly gave the Church more than one rite then, as the Ambrosian, Mozarabic, Beneventan and Sarum rites also have long histories; the Ambrosian and Mozarabic survive in the Church, as do some rites specific to religious orders.
There were many more, but the rite of Pius V suppressed them.
And don’t get me going on the Breviary. Only one has stood the test of time and that’s the Monastic Breviary of St. Benedict of the 6th Century.
We do have to remember that the Church is now spread much further than Western Europe and its colonies. In some places, learning English is hard enough, Latin may simply not be feasible. Perhaps for the highly educated, i.e. the clergy, but not really for the person in the pew. When missionaries came to Canada, the Vatican gave dispensations to have the Mass in aboriginal tongues.
There’s a reason Sacrosanctum Concilium desired greater use of the vernacular.
There were many more, but the rite of Pius V suppressed them.
And don’t get me going on the Breviary. Only one has stood the test of time and that’s the Monastic Breviary of St. Benedict of the 6th Century.
I’ve learned Latin to be able to at least read it and sing it fluently, though my understanding of it is not the greatest, though I can muddle through some of it. But then my mother tongue is French so it isn’t so difficult.
We do have to remember that the Church is now spread much further than Western Europe and its colonies. In some places, learning English is hard enough, Latin may simply not be feasible. Perhaps for the highly educated, i.e. the clergy, but not really for the person in the pew. When missionaries came to Canada, the Vatican gave dispensations to have the Mass in aboriginal tongues.
There’s a reason Sacrosanctum Concilium desired greater use of the vernacular.
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Peeps
Guest
You’re making some huge assumptions.
First, the idea that people attending the OF Mass don’t believe in the True Presence of Our Lord and that the Holy Mass is a Sacrifiece. Statistics do show that many Catholics don’t believe in the True Presence and the Sacrifice of our Lord, but…many Catholics DO believe!!
Second, that being an altar boy in the OF Mass would create a rise of young men going into the priesthood. Young men decide to become a priest because they receive a call from the Lord and they answer that call in the affirmative. They don’t receive a call from the Lord because they are altar boys.
Third, that not being allowed to perform a service for the Lord in the Mass would be “awesome.” Many people who love serving the Lord and His people would be saddened, not awe-inspired.
Finally, you are assuming that “If certain changes are made…then Catholics will believe.” When Jesus walked on this earth, plenty of people witnessed His miracles, His messages, His loving actions and words–and they STILL didn’t believe.
First, the idea that people attending the OF Mass don’t believe in the True Presence of Our Lord and that the Holy Mass is a Sacrifiece. Statistics do show that many Catholics don’t believe in the True Presence and the Sacrifice of our Lord, but…many Catholics DO believe!!
Second, that being an altar boy in the OF Mass would create a rise of young men going into the priesthood. Young men decide to become a priest because they receive a call from the Lord and they answer that call in the affirmative. They don’t receive a call from the Lord because they are altar boys.
Third, that not being allowed to perform a service for the Lord in the Mass would be “awesome.” Many people who love serving the Lord and His people would be saddened, not awe-inspired.
Finally, you are assuming that “If certain changes are made…then Catholics will believe.” When Jesus walked on this earth, plenty of people witnessed His miracles, His messages, His loving actions and words–and they STILL didn’t believe.
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MagdalenaRita
Guest
I’m a positive thinker.
I agree, many people do believe in the True Presence but typically statistics show that more and more Catholics do not believe in the True Presence or even continue to understand that the Mass is a Sacrifice but understand it only as a meal.
I also agree the priesthod is a calling but having young boys serve at the altar was usually considered one way to encourage youth to consider the priesthood. Somewhere down the road that has been lost.
I don’t think that not serving the Lord is awesome but bringing back more of the priest’s role is awesome. More reverence for the Eucharistic is awesome.
There will always be those who do not believe no matter what, true but that doesn’t mean we don’t try.
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