If you could, what changes if any would you make to the Ordinary Form?

[ProVobis]

Also Father when I mention restore the Tridentinr form into the Ordinary Form, I of course mean translated into vernacular with the option to recite in Latin…

You do realize that the older handmissals had different translations of the same Latin? Which version do you prefer? I dislike the St. Joseph version.

 

[ChristMyLife]

And if anybody doesn’t know what the Offertory is or isn’t familiar with the difference between the Ordinary Form (OF, aka Pauline) Mass Offertory and Extraordinary Form (EF, aka Tridentine) I will illustrate that difference now.

OF Offertory:

Blessed are you, Lord God of all creation, for through your goodness we have received the bread we offer you: fruit of the earth and work of human hands, it will become for us the bread of life.
Blessed be God forever.

priest prays quietly
By the mystery of this water and wine may we come to share in the divinity of Christ who humbled himself to share in our humanity.

Blessed are you, Lord God of all creation, for through your goodness we have received the wine we offer you: fruit of the vine and work of human hands it will become our spiritual drink.
Blessed be God forever.

priest prays quietly
With humble spirit and contrite heart may we be accepted by you, O Lord, and may our sacrifice in your sight this day be pleasing to you, Lord God.
Wash me, O Lord, from my iniquity and cleanse me from my sin.

Then the prayer over the offerings.

And that’s it for the OF Offertory.

EF Offertory:

Accept, O holy Father, almighty and eternal God, this unspotted host, which I, Thy unworthy servant, offer unto Thee, my living and true God, for my innumerable sins, offenses, and negligences, and for all here present: as also for all faithful Christians, both living and dead, that it may avail both me and them for salvation unto life everlasting. Amen.

priest prays quietly
O God, who, in creating human nature, didst wonderfully dignify it, and still more wonderfully restore it, grant that, by the Mystery of this water and wine, we may be made partakers of His divine nature, who vouchsafed to be made partaker of our human nature, even Jesus Christ our Lord, Thy Son, who with Thee, liveth and reigneth in the unity of the Holy Ghost, God: world without end. Amen.

We offer unto Thee, O Lord, the chalice of salvation, beseeching Thy clemency, that it may ascend before Thy divine Majesty, as a sweet savor, for our salvation, and for that of the whole world. Amen.

Accept us, O Lord, in the spirit of humility and contrition of heart, and grant that the sacrifice which we offer this day in Thy sight may be pleasing to Thee, O Lord God.

Come, O almighty and eternal God, the Sanctifier, and bless ☩ this Sacrifice, prepared for the glory of Thy holy Name.

…continued…

 

[ChristMyLife]

…continued…

priest prays quietly
I will wash my hands among the innocent: and I will compass Thine altar, O Lord That I may hear the voice of praise: and tell of all Thy wonderous works. I have loved, O Lord, the beauty of Thy house and the place where Thy glory dwelleth. Take not away my soul, O God, with the wicked: nor my life with blood-thirsty men. In whose hands are iniquities, their right hand is filled with gifts. But I have walked in my innocence: redeem me, and have mercy on me. My foot hath stood in the direct way, in the churches I will bless Thee, O Lord.

Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost.
As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.

Receive, O holy Trinity, this oblation which we make to Thee, in memory of the Passion, Resurrection and Ascension of our Lord Jesus Christ, and in honor of Blessed Mary, ever Virgin, blessed John the Baptist, the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, and of all the Saints, that it may avail unto their honor and our salvation, and may they vouchsafe to intercede for us in heaven, whose memory we celebrate on earth. Through the same Christ our Lord. Amen.

Then comes the prayer over the offerings (aka the Secret) and thus concludes the EF Offertory.

In my opinion, how I feel is that the EF Offertory is a bit more fleshed out than the OF, and hence why I’d like to see the Tridentine form Offertory restored to the OF Mass. And there are plenty of good, faithful clergy who celebrate and love the OF Roman Rite daily who would have no problem seeing the Church do just that.

 

[edward_george1]

I can’t help but notice that you’re including the washing of the hands in the EF, but not for the OF. If you’re going to make an argument, please don’t omit a step that might tip the balance, as it were.

And I don’t know if I would characterize my position quite as you do:

As you can see, what me and Father feel is that the EF Offertory is much more rich than the OF, and hence why we’d like to see the Tridentine form Offertory restored to the OF Mass.

I didn’t say “much more rich,” so much as “more fleshed out.” I realize those are probably similar ways of saying it, though the former strikes me as more of a value judgment than the latter. And I didn’t say “I’d like to see the Tridentine form Offertory restored to the OF Mass.” I said that I wouldn’t mind if it were restored in whole or in part. I don’t tend to draw hard lines with these things in terms of what I might hypothetically prefer; I’d rather just be open to what the Church hands down. So please don’t represent my position as being 100% in agreement with how you say it. I know that gives your position greater credence with some, but what I’ve said isn’t exactly what you’re saying.

And be careful about things like “as you can see,” which implies evidence has been presented toward a factual conclusion, before making an opinion-based judgment. I don’t mean to nitpick, but we need to use our language and our arguments carefully.

 

[ChristMyLife]

washing of the hands in the EF, but not for the OF.

I included the OF washing of hands… It’s just so condensed compared to the EF that it’s easy to miss.

 

[edward_george1]

My apologies. I didn’t see that.

 

[ChristMyLife]

I don’t mean to nitpick, but we need to use our language and our arguments carefully.

You and your prudence and wise judgment and moderation… Bah!

I do tend to lean toward the polemical/opinionated end of the spectrum… I’m only 30 years old and served in the US Military not too long ago, so I am used to being aggressive… It’s something I’ve worked on for a long time being more moderate, understanding, and calm and level.

I’ve gotten much better - 5 years ago I was 5 times more polemical.

Edit: @edward_george1 I edited my comment which you originally had a few issues with - does it get your nihil obstat now Father?

 

[edward_george1]

Ah yes, very good. And I thank you for the graciousness with which you received my critiques. I hope I didn’t come off as too aggressive myself.

 

[ChristMyLife]

And I thank you for the graciousness with which you received my critiques. I hope I didn’t come off as too aggressive myself.

Absolutely not Father. If one cannot receive criticism and take it in stride, then that person will never grow in wisdom and knowledge!

 

[edward_george1]

Would that the whole forum were infected with this insight…

 

[Raph]

Bring back the old offertory prayers, bring back the old consecration formulas, move the “Ecce Agnus Dei” back to after the communion of the celebrant, restore the confiteor before the communion of the faithful (it could be using the new formula), restore the keelings before the elevations, add the possibility of saying the Canon silently, simplify the Asperges rite, revise the new Eucharistic prayers to make the notion of sacrifice more explicit and bring back the Dies Irae

 

[gracepoole]

ChristMyLife:

Also Father when I mention restore the Tridentinr form into the Ordinary Form, I of course mean translated into vernacular with the option to recite in Latin…

You do realize that the older handmissals had different translations of the same Latin? Which version do you prefer? I dislike the St. Joseph version.

This is interesting and it’s something I’d never considered. Could you perhaps give some explanation as to why you dislike the St. Joseph version?

 

[ProVobis]

Actually I wish they don’t use any translation. It only creates wars and loses the Latin nuances and poetry. And besides most of the prayers are silent and meant to be so why the effort to standardize the English translation?

 

[PetraG]

Actually I wish they don’t use any translation. It only creates wars and loses the Latin nuances and poetry. And besides most of the prayers are silent and meant to be so why the effort to standardize the English translation?

The Latin nuances and poetry are also lost on anyone who isn’t fluent in Latin, correct? (And I really don’t see why it would matter at all that a silent prayer is offered in the mother tongue of the person offering it instead of in a common language he does not know well.)

 

[PetraG]

But I would move the Kiss of Peace closer to the beginning of Mass. Maybe after the Homily so as to not distract from the Eucharist. Or maybe just not have it at all like at some OF Masses I’ve seen.

I’d move the Sign of Peace to somewhere immediately before or immediately after the Kyrie and Confiteor:
“The two parts which, in a certain sense, go to make up the Mass, namely, the liturgy of the word and the eucharistic liturgy, are so closely connected with each other that they form but one single act of worship.”
Sacrosanctum Concilium, 56.

“Therefore, if you bring your gift to the altar, and there recall that your brother has anything against you, leave your gift there at the altar, go first and be reconciled with your brother, and then come and offer your gift.”
Matt. 5:23-24

Ergo, I think the Sign of Peace would be better-placed if it took place before embarking on the joint act of worship in which the Holy Sacrifice is offered to the Father, rather than anywhere in the middle or after its conclusion. It seems reasonable to make the sign that we are reconciled and at peace either immediately before or immediately after we confess our sinfulness and ask for each other to pray for our forgiveness before God.

 

[ProVobis]

The Latin nuances and poetry are also lost on anyone who isn’t fluent in Latin, correct? (

One doesn’t need the entire dictionary to be fluent in a few prayers kids used to memorize and grasp the gist of what they were reciting.

But if you insist on English only, there is always the Anglican Ordinate for you.

 

[PetraG]

One doesn’t need the entire dictionary to be fluent in a few prayers kids used to memorize and grasp the gist of what they were reciting.

But if you insist on English only, there is always the Anglican Ordinate for you.

Well, no, if I insist on English only, I can stay in reality instead of the fantasies being proposed in this thread, LOL.

May I please remind you that if it were not for the Church’s desire to translate the Mass into a vulgar language in which the people were actually fluent, the Mass would not be in Latin. It would still be in Greek, or perhaps Aramaic, but not in Latin.

 

[ProVobis]

Maybe but there is good evidence that the Roman Canon was written in Latin, not translated.

But for the record I enjoy hearing the Consecration in Aramaic.

 

[PetraG]

Maybe but there is good evidence that the Roman Canon was written in Latin, not translated.

That’s fine, but let’s not talk as if the Roman Canon was handed down from the Last Supper. Latin poetry is lovely, if you understand Latin. If you don’t, then what you understand is what someone offering a translation of some kind told you that the words mean. It is does not make sense to imply that people who don’t understand Latin at all are going to get more “nuance” out of saying words they don’t understand than reciting a translation of those words.

But for the record I enjoy hearing the Consecration in Aramaic.

That, I agree, would be a thrill. Honestly, hearing the Latin carries the same thrill, which is knowing that these are the same words heard over centuries by saints gone before us. I am only objecting that it is not possible to get more “nuance” by hearing the original when it is in a language you don’t understand than from hearing a translation. The melody can be better, I’ll concede that, if that is what you mean by “poetry,” but if you mean that the exact word choice of the poet provides a more elevated meaning than other word choices the poet might have made or if the writer were using the vocabulary available in another language, that premise is far more difficult to support.

 

[ProVobis]

If you don’t, then what you understand is what someone offering a translation of some kind told you that the words mean.

That’s because of the way they teach Latin. If they taught it as a conversational language then perhaps Latin would be more accepted. Instead they only try to translate; personally I think that approach is both boring and frustrating.