"If you died right now, are you 100% sure you would go to Heaven? (St. Paul wasn't)

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Lampo said:
SIDEBAR!!!: - Would you please show me how you did those quotes? How you separated out my quotes and then added your responses? Thanks a billion!

Paul wasn’t sure of his salvation. Hence, 1 Cor. 9:27

Disqualified from Heaven.
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Hi Lampo,

I dont expect you to believe this but I just wanted to show you what we/me believe. This is from gotquestions.org. Take it for what it is worth.👍
Question: “Is eternal security a “license” to sin?”
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Answer: The most frequent objection to the doctrine of eternal security is that it supposedly promotes the idea that Christians can live any way that they want to - and still be saved. While this is “technically” true, that is not the “essence” of eternal security. A person who has truly accepted Jesus Christ as his or her Savior “can” live a sinful life - but he or she “will” not do so. We must draw a distinction between how a Christian should live - and what a person must do in order to receive salvation.
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The Bible is abundantly clear that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone (John 3:16; Ephesians 2:8-9; John 14:6). A person is saved by faith - faith alone. The moment a person truly believes in Jesus Christ, he/she is saved and secure in that salvation. It is not that salvation is gained by faith, but then maintained by works. The Apostle Paul addresses this issue in Galatians 3:3, “Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?” If we are saved by faith, our salvation is also maintained and secured by faith. We cannot earn our own salvation. Therefore, we cannot earn the maintenance of our salvation either. It is God who maintains our salvation (Jude verse 24). It is God’s hand that holds us firmly in His grasp (John 10:28-29). It is God’s love that nothing can separate us from (Romans 8:38-39).
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Any denial of eternal security is, in its essence, a belief that we must maintain our own salvation by our own good works. This is completely antithetical to salvation by grace. We are saved because of Christ’s merits, not our own (Romans 4:3-8). To claim that we must obey God’s Word or live a godly life to maintain our salvation is equal to saying that Jesus’ death was not sufficient to pay the penalty for our sins. Jesus’ death was absolutely sufficient to pay for all of our sins - past, present, and future, pre-salvation and post-salvation (Romans 5:8; 1 Corinthians 15:3; 2 Corinthians 5:21).
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So, with all that said, does this mean that a Christian can live any way he/she wants to and still be saved? This is essentially a hypothetical question, because the Bible makes it clear that a true Christian will not live “any way he/she wants to.” Christians are new creations (2 Corinthians 5:17). Christians demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23), not the acts of the flesh (Galatians 5:19-21). 1 John 3:6-9 clearly states that a true Christian will not live in continual sin. In response to the accusation that grace promotes sin, the Apostle Paul declared, “What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?” (Romans 6:1-2).
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Eternal security is not a “license” to sin. Rather, it is the security of knowing that God’s love is guaranteed for those who trust in Christ. Knowing and understanding God’s tremendous gift of salvation accomplishes the opposite of giving a “license” to sin. How could anyone, knowing the price Jesus Christ paid for us, go on to live a life of sin (Romans 6:15-23)? How could anyone who understands God’s unconditional and guaranteed love for those who believe, take that love and throw it back in God’s face? Such a person is demonstrating not that eternal security has given him or her a license to sin, but rather that he or she has not truly experienced salvation through Jesus Christ. “No one who lives in Him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen Him or known Him” (1 John 3:6).
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Abraxsis said:
The better question is does it really matter? I had always thought the objective is to get into purgatory.
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I would think that the objective isn’t to save one’s own soul, but to live as Jesus taught us. Seeking salvation for its own sake seems rather selfish.
 
ALLFORHIM said:
Hi Lampo,

I dont expect you to believe this but I just wanted to show you what we/me believe. This is from gotquestions.org. Take it for what it is worth.👍
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Thank you Allforhim. Helps me understand OSAS a little better. After reading that is sounds like it comes down to “true Christian” vs. “superficial Christian.” The problem is the OSAS folks never know 100% which one they are.
 
ALLFORHIM said:
Hi Lampo,

I dont expect you to believe this but I just wanted to show you what we/me believe. This is from gotquestions.org. Take it for what it is worth.👍
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Howdy!:tiphat:

Wasn’t the word “alone” in “faith alone” added later in Romans 3:28? I guess that’s a whole different issue.

James 2:24 - See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
 
In Romans 1:17, Paul tells us that, “The just shall live by faith.” The Catholic Church is in full agreement with this statement. However, she does not agree with the way some would define faith. The Church speaks of faith in the biblical sense. While Paul says, “the just shall live by faith,” he also says, “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love” (Galatians 5:6). He further states, “If I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing…And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love” (1 Corinthians 13:2, 13). Why is the greatest of these love? Because without love there is no faith. So then, how is love manifested? Well, in Romans 12:9-13 Paul says, “Let love be genuine, hate what is evil, hold fast to what is good, love one another with brotherly affection, outdo one another in showing honor. Never flag in zeal, be aglow with the Spirit, serve the Lord. Rejoice in your hope, be patient in tribulation, be constant in prayer. Contribute to the needs of the saints, practice hospitality.” Elsewhere Paul speaks of “the obedience of faith” (Romans 1:5). So for Paul, to have faith meant to take action. That is why James tells us that “faith without works is dead” (James 2:17).
 
Lampo said:
SIDEBAR!!!: - Would you please show me how you did those quotes? How you separated out my quotes and then added your responses? Thanks a billion!
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Here is the coding:

{quote=Name of person you are quoting} What’s being quoted {/quote}

(These brackets { } are for illustration; when you code in the quote, these are the code brackets recognized by the program: ] )

{quote=Lampo} SIDEBAR!!!: - Would you please show me how you did those quotes? How you separated out my quotes and then added your responses? Thanks a billion!{/quote}

Now the same quote, replacing the illustration brackts { } with the coding brackets ]
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Lampo:
SIDEBAR!!!: - Would you please show me how you did those quotes? How you separated out my quotes and then added your responses? Thanks a billion!
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Again, each quote begins with the attribution: {quote=name of the one being quote} THE BODY OF THE QUOTE {/quote} each quote is “closed” by using {/quote}

Does that help? If not, let me know, we’ll try again.
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Lampo:
Paul wasn’t sure of his salvation. Hence, 1 Cor. 9:27

Disqualified from Heaven.
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From what in the text do you conclude that Paul is speaking of being disqualified from heaven?
 
ALLFORHIM said:
Hi Lampo,

I dont expect you to believe this but I just wanted to show you what we/me believe. This is from gotquestions.org. Take it for what it is worth.👍
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The doctrine of “once saved, always saved” was invented by John Calvin during the Reformation. Under this theory, the Protestant believes that one is saved when he accepts Jesus as personal Lord and Savior. This is comforting - after all, who wouldn’t want assurance? According to this view, true Christians are the ones who will persevere to the end. For those who accepted Christ during their lives but did not persevere to the end, the doctrine calls these people superficial Christians. So true Christians will go to heaven and superficial Christians will not. Not only is this teaching not Scriptural, it is difficult to accept the teaching on reason.

The only distinction between a true Christian and a superficial Christian is that the superficial Christian did not persevere to the end. Otherwise, the two types of Christians appear to be the same. The superficial Christian has all the earmarks of a true Christian except that he did not persevere. But this necessarily means that the true Christian cannot know that he really is a true Christian either until the end of his life. He, too, won’t know whether his conversion was genuine until the end of his life. Therefore, despite all the talk about assurance, he cannot be sure.

This doctrine, therefore, actually gives its adherents less assurance of their salvation. It necessarily imposes upon them uncertainty until the end. The Catholic (and Scriptural) view, however, does give assurance to the believer that he is in fact currently saved (a true Christian), and that, if he perseveres to the end, he will be saved at death. We also know that God will give all the graces necessary for us to be faithful to the end (because of our freewill, the question is always whether we will accept the grace or not). Thus, Catholics know that it is theirs to lose. Protestant Calvinists don’t even know whether it is theirs to begin with.
 
Lampo said:
Thank you Allforhim. Helps me understand OSAS a little better. After reading that is sounds like it comes down to “true Christian” vs. “superficial Christian.” The problem is the OSAS folks never know 100% which one they are.
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But neither do you:shrug: So we are all in the same boat on that one. The point is you can know if you are one of the true christians.👍
 
Wasn’t the word “alone” in “faith alone” added later in Romans 3:28? I guess that’s a whole different issue.
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I dont know–I have never heard of that before. I dont think the word alone is written in that passage in my bible.🤷
James 2:24 - See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
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Yeah I think there are enough threads out there that talks about this.👍
 
sandusky said:
Here is the coding:

{quote=Name of person you are quoting} What’s being quoted {/quote}

(These brackets { } are for illustration; when you code in the quote, these are the code brackets recognized by the program: ] )

{quote=Lampo} SIDEBAR!!!: - Would you please show me how you did those quotes? How you separated out my quotes and then added your responses? Thanks a billion!{/quote}

Now the same quote, replacing the illustration brackts { } with the coding brackets ]

Again, each quote begins with the attribution: {quote=name of the one being quote} THE BODY OF THE QUOTE {/quote} each quote is “closed” by using {/quote}

Does that help? If not, let me know, we’ll try again.

From what in the text do you conclude that Paul is speaking of being disqualified from heaven?
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Thank you Sandusky, I’m going to work on that.

Paul mentions running to win the “imperishable” (Greek, aphthartos) wreath (v.25). The word aphthartos appears only one other time in Scripture in 1 Cor. 15:51 in connection with human beings, where Paul says the dead will be raised “imperishable.” This “imperishable” crown refers to nothing less than the resurrection of our salvation.

The word “brabeion” also has a soteriological implication. For example, Paul tells the Philippians, “I press on toward the goal for the prize (brabeion) of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus” (Phil. 3:14). This “prize” of the upward call is nothing less than heaven itself.

Please don’t try to make a distinction between “prize” and “gift” because Scripture makes no such distinctions. Paul tells the Philippians to “work out your salvation in fear and trembling” (Phil 2:12). Salvation can also be called a prize because we have to work it out with fear and trembling. Certainly, the prize has been acquired for us by the voluntary and gratuitous sacrifice of Jesus Christ, but we also participate in acquiring the prize by cooperating with God’s grace. This is how we “work it out.” Since salvation is an all-or-nothing proposition, Paul uses the metaphor of a race. Paul says it is a matter of winning or losing the race for the “imperishable wreath” and “prize.”
 
Lampo said:
1 Cor. 9:27 - “No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.”
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Oh, heck no.

I’m quite certain I’d go right to hell itself, other than by the mercy of God Himself.

Then again, there are things that He knows that I don’t about this “who goes to heaven” thing,… so while I’m CERTAINLY not doing anywhere near the best I could to get “right with God”, I could be wrong and not as bad off as I imagine myself.

Anyway,… for those who are “assuredly saved”,… have fun with that, as it’s an utterly goofy idea, and one that God surely allowed Satan to chuck at people to see just how gullible they might be.

Be like Job, gang. Bear with the anxiety of insecurity, and don’t curse God for it’s being there, as cursing God is what you do when you claim that God has taken away your free will to sin.
 
ALLFORHIM said:
But neither do you:shrug: So we are all in the same boat on that one. The point is you can know if you are one of the true christians.👍
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So you believe the people who endure to the end prove their faith and are the same ones who are saved. Those who fall away give conclusive proof that they were never truly saved to begin with?
 
Lampo said:
Thank you Sandusky, I’m going to work on that.

Paul mentions running to win the “imperishable” (Greek, aphthartos) wreath (v.25). The word aphthartos appears only one other time in Scripture in 1 Cor. 15:51 in connection with human beings, where Paul says the dead will be raised “imperishable.” This “imperishable” crown refers to nothing less than the resurrection of our salvation.

The word “brabeion” also has a soteriological implication. For example, Paul tells the Philippians, “I press on toward the goal for the prize (brabeion) of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus” (Phil. 3:14). This “prize” of the upward call is nothing less than heaven itself.

Please don’t try to make a distinction between “prize” and “gift” because Scripture makes no such distinctions. Paul tells the Philippians to “work out your salvation in fear and trembling” (Phil 2:12). Salvation can also be called a prize because we have to work it out with fear and trembling. Certainly, the prize has been acquired for us by the voluntary and gratuitous sacrifice of Jesus Christ, but we also participate in acquiring the prize by cooperating with God’s grace. This is how we “work it out.” Since salvation is an all-or-nothing proposition, Paul uses the metaphor of a race. Paul says it is a matter of winning or losing the race for the “imperishable wreath” and “prize.”
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What is the topic of Chapter 9?
 
#192 Lampo said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALLFORHIM forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
But neither do you:shrug: So we are all in the same boat on that one. The point is you can know if you are one of the true christians.👍

So you believe the people who endure to the end prove their faith and are the same ones who are saved. Those who fall away give conclusive proof that they were never truly saved to begin with?
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Which heresy is that again? I think that that concept is an established old heresy.

Thanks for the info on what that heresy is called.
 
sandusky said:
What is Paul’s topic, the subject that he is speaking of, and to, in 1 Corinthians, chapter 9?
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Oh, sorry, I’m a little dense sometimes.
This chapter is an emotionally charged expansion of Paul’s appeal to his own example in 1 Cor 8:13; its purpose is to reinforce the exhortation of 1 Cor 8:9. The two opening questions introduce the themes of Paul’s freedom and his apostleship (1 Cor 9:1), themes that the chapter will develop in reverse order, 1 Cor 9:1-18 treating the question of his apostleship and the rights that flow from it, and 1 Cor 9:19-27 exploring dialectically the nature of Paul’s freedom. The language is highly rhetorical, abounding in questions, wordplays, paradoxes, images, and appeals to authority and experience. The argument is unified by repetitions; its articulations are highlighted by inclusions and transitional verses
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Lampo:
Oh, sorry, I’m a little dense sometimes.
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No you’re not.
This chapter is an emotionally charged expansion of Paul’s appeal to his own example in 1 Cor 8:13; its purpose is to reinforce the exhortation of 1 Cor 8:9. The two opening questions introduce the themes of Paul’s freedom and his apostleship (1 Cor 9:1), themes that the chapter will develop in reverse order, 1 Cor 9:1-18 treating the question of his apostleship and the rights that flow from it, and 1 Cor 9:19-27 exploring dialectically the nature of Paul’s freedom. The language is highly rhetorical, abounding in questions, wordplays, paradoxes, images, and appeals to authority and experience. The argument is unified by repetitions; its articulations are highlighted by inclusions and transitional verses
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Do you notice that the words ”Salvation,” and ”Heaven,” are not mentioned in the quote
that you’ve provided?
 
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