"If you died right now, are you 100% sure you would go to Heaven? (St. Paul wasn't)

[Lampo]

No you’re not.

Do you notice that the words ”Salvation,” and ”Heaven,” are not mentioned in the quote
that you’ve provided?

That doesn’t prove the prize isn’t Heaven. That was just a synopsis of Ch. 9. I’m interested in what you think he could be disqualified from.

 

[wcknight]

But neither do you:shrug: So we are all in the same boat on that one. The point is you can know if you are one of the true christians.

I think the 2 most dangerous ideas in non-Catholic Christianity is the OSAS and faith alone teachings. I can see how these can easily lead its adherents to ignore their Christian responsibilities and end up with long terms in Purgatory or worse.

Throughout all of Christ’s teachings He is always warning us to avoid sin and to help others. Yes, He tells us to believe in Him, but more importantly He tells us not to ignore those in need. His parable about Lazaus begging outside the rich mans house clearly says that the rich man ended up in Hell because He ignored the poor, NOT because He did not have faith.

IF you ‘only’ proclaim that Jesus is your Lord and Savior, BUT you don’t do any good works to PROVE that you really believe this, you will be condemned. Faith without works is an empty boast.

You not only have to talk the talk, BUT you have to walk the walk. You can talk all you want about what you believe in, but until you show with works that you love God above all else AND you love your neighbor by your works of charity, you are just blowing smoke !

You can read and quote scriptures until you are blue in the face but until you get off your duff and do something about it, Jesus will not recognize you when your time comes.

 

[Lampo]

I’ve enjoyed the dialog so far…duty calls so I must go. Talk with you tomorrow.

 

[sandusky]

That doesn’t prove the prize isn’t Heaven. That was just a synopsis of Ch. 9. I’m interested in what you think he could be disqualified from.

Shouldn’t the conclusion of the topic be related to the topic—Paul’s Apostleship, the rights of it, and the nature of his freedom?

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Hey allforhim…was I right in post #192?

Hi Lampo,

I say this with love—no Our perserverance has nothing to do with whether or not we make it into heaven. Putting our belief and faith in Christ does that. Paul is talking about how to live a christian life(which takes our entire lives). Paul is talking about recieving a reward in heaven. The bible doesnt really talk about what these rewards will be so I dont know. But, heaven is just the first and that comes at the moment of salvation. Our rewards in heaven depend on how we run our christian race/life. A true christian will finish the race because God tells us that the work He started in us He will bring to completion. I believe Him–do you?

 

[ALLFORHIM]

I think the 2 most dangerous ideas in non-Catholic Christianity is the OSAS and faith alone teachings. I can see how these can easily lead its adherents to ignore their Christian responsibilities and end up with long terms in Purgatory or worse.

Throughout all of Christ’s teachings He is always warning us to avoid sin and to help others. Yes, He tells us to believe in Him, but more importantly He tells us not to ignore those in need. His parable about Lazaus begging outside the rich mans house clearly says that the rich man ended up in Hell because He ignored the poor, NOT because He did not have faith.

IF you ‘only’ proclaim that Jesus is your Lord and Savior, BUT you don’t do any good works to PROVE that you really believe this, you will be condemned. Faith without works is an empty boast.

You not only have to talk the talk, BUT you have to walk the walk. You can talk all you want about what you believe in, but until you show with works that you love God above all else AND you love your neighbor by your works of charity, you are just blowing smoke !

You can read and quote scriptures until you are blue in the face but until you get off your duff and do something about it, Jesus will not recognize you when your time comes.

Question: “Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works?”

Answer: This is perhaps the most important question in all of Christian theology. This question is the cause of the Reformation - the split between the Protestant church and Catholic church. This question is a key difference between Biblical Christianity and most of the “Christian” cults. Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works? Am I saved just by believing in Jesus, or do I have to believe in Jesus and do certain things?

The question of faith alone or faith plus works is made difficult by some hard-to-reconcile Bible passages. Compare Romans 3:28, 5:1 and Galatians 3:24 with James 2:24. Some see a difference between Paul (salvation is by faith alone) and James (salvation is by faith plus works). In reality, Paul and James did not disagree at all. The only point of disagreement some people claim is over the relationship between faith and works. Paul dogmatically says that justification is by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9) while James appears to be saying that justification is by faith plus works. This apparent problem is answered by examining what exactly James is talking about. James is refuting the belief that a person can have faith without producing any good works (James 2:17-18). James is emphasizing the point that genuine faith in Christ will produce a changed life and good works (James 2:20-26). James is not saying that justification is by faith plus works, but rather that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his life – then he likely does not have genuine faith in Christ (James 2:14, 17, 20, 26).

Paul says the same thing in his writings. The good fruit believers should have in their lives is listed in Galatians 5:22-23. Immediately after telling us that we are saved by faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9), Paul informs us that we were created to do good works (Ephesians 2:10). Paul expects just as much of a changed life as James does, “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come” (2 Corinthians 5:17)! James and Paul do not disagree on their teaching on salvation. They approach the same subject from different perspectives. Paul simply emphasized that justification is by faith alone while James put emphasis on the fact that faith in Christ produces good works.



from gotquestions.org

 

[mikeledes]

Hi Lampo,

I say this with love—no Our perserverance has nothing to do with whether or not we make it into heaven. Putting our belief and faith in Christ does that. Paul is talking about how to live a christian life(which takes our entire lives). Paul is talking about recieving a reward in heaven. The bible doesnt really talk about what these rewards will be so I dont know. But, heaven is just the first and that comes at the moment of salvation. Our rewards in heaven depend on how we run our christian race/life. A true christian will finish the race because God tells us that the work He started in us He will bring to completion. I believe Him–do you?

According to Calvinism, perseverance is a sign of one’s election to salvation. If one is born of God, one will persevere.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

I would like to examine four verses, all of which touch on the issue of perseverance.

1 Corinthians 9:26

26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

Romans 8:12-13

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Philippians 3:12-14

**12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. **

Hebrews 4:11

11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.

Now the first verse is often explained away by claiming that it is merely talking about rewards, not salvation. However, this argument contradicts the Calvinist notion of the perseverance of the saints. Why? Because if Saint Paul had been disqualified, it would be because he failed to keep his body in subjection and that would mean he was overcome by sin. This reminds me of 2 Peter 2:20:

20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.

So if perseverance is a sign of election, then 1 Corinthian 9:26 cannot be about mere rewards. If a person failed to persevere and was disqualified and did not receive the crown, does that not also mean that the person will not be saved? Compare** Matthew 10:22**

"… But he who endures to the end will be saved."

with Revelation 2:10

Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

and James 1:12

12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.

So if the crown is given to all those who persevere to the end, then does that not mean that is given to all those who are glorified? If this is so, then doesn’t diqualification from receiving the crown mean the same thing as disqualification from being glorified? Thus Paul can only be talking about disqualification from final salvation in 1 Corinthians 9:26. But if he were a Calvinist, would he cast such doubt on his own salvation? It seems that Calvinists are far more certain of their own salvation than Saint Paul.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[ALLFORHIM]

According to Calvinism, perseverance is a sign of one’s election to salvation. If one is born of God, one will persevere.

God Bless,
Michael

Well I guess I believe in some points of calvinism then

 

[mikeledes]

Well I guess I believe in some points of calvinism then

1 Corinthians 9:27 is obviously talking about receiving something at the end of the race. Let’s just say it is a mere reward. If all genuine Christians persevere to the end, then doesn’t that mean that all genuine Christians will receive that reward? Then how can Saint Paul even discuss the possibility of losing a reward due to lack of perseverance if he knows that perseverance is guaranteed?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Also, 1 Corinthians 9:27 is a transition to the next chapter:

**1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
6 Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. 7 And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.”[a] 8 Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell; 9 nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents; 10 nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. **

God Bless,
Michael

 

[john_ennis]

Howdy!:tiphat:

Wasn’t the word “alone” in “faith alone” added later in Romans 3:28? I guess that’s a whole different issue.

James 2:24 - See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

You’re referring to the Romans passage in which Luther added the word “alone” in his first German translation of the Bible (he had quite a strong response to people who criticized him for it, too! There’s no question that he did it). It was not accepted, by and large, and you won’t find it in any translations now.

 

[RomanCrusader]

I don’t think I’d make it into Heaven now. I have to become more pure.

 

[Singinbeauty]

This needs to be kept in context. Here’s a scenario: My boss comes to me and says that he needs for me to write a proposal for a grant that we need and it due by the end of the day. I could tell that he is very nervous and anxious about this. I tell him, “Don’t worry about anything, I will get it done.” Does this mean that now my boss doesn’t have to worry about ANYTHING IN LIFE? Or does it just mean that he doesn’t have to worry about me not getting the proposal written?

Do not worry about anything but in everything present your request to God.

Your senario yes, would mean that he wouldn’t have to worry about the proposal BUT we are told that we need to pray about everything but not WORRY about it. Does this mean we shouldn’t be concerned? No, it means we should not be WORRIED. God has everything taken care of. We need to trust that He knows what is going on and also TRUST that He is powerful enough to handle it. Do we sit back and do nothing? No. We pray about it and follow God’s lead. He will tell us where He wants us.

 

[boppaid]

I think that we sometimes tend to forget that the authors of the bible WERE human. They, like the rest of us, certainly don’t know the Heart and Mind of God so I can totally see why Paul would say what he says.

We must remember, though, that although written by men, scripture IS the inspired word of GOD.

 

[Delraek]

Hi Lampo,

I say this with love—no Our perserverance has nothing to do with whether or not we make it into heaven. Putting our belief and faith in Christ does that. Paul is talking about how to live a christian life(which takes our entire lives). Paul is talking about recieving a reward in heaven. The bible doesnt really talk about what these rewards will be so I dont know. But, heaven is just the first and that comes at the moment of salvation. Our rewards in heaven depend on how we run our christian race/life. A true christian will finish the race because God tells us that the work He started in us He will bring to completion. I believe Him–do you?

Hi AllforHim,

So the “reward” isn’t heaven, but is IN heaven? What are these “rewards” in heaven?

 

[Lampo]

A true christian will finish the race because God tells us that the work He started in us He will bring to completion. I believe Him–do you?

What happens to the “false Christian?”

 

[Lampo]

Question: “Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works?”

Answer: This is perhaps the most important question in all of Christian theology. This question is the cause of the Reformation - the split between the Protestant church and Catholic church. This question is a key difference between Biblical Christianity and most of the “Christian” cults. Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works? Am I saved just by believing in Jesus, or do I have to believe in Jesus and do certain things?

The question of faith alone or faith plus works is made difficult by some hard-to-reconcile Bible passages. Compare Romans 3:28, 5:1 and Galatians 3:24 with James 2:24. Some see a difference between Paul (salvation is by faith alone) and James (salvation is by faith plus works). In reality, Paul and James did not disagree at all. The only point of disagreement some people claim is over the relationship between faith and works. Paul dogmatically says that justification is by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9) while James appears to be saying that justification is by faith plus works. This apparent problem is answered by examining what exactly James is talking about. James is refuting the belief that a person can have faith without producing any good works (James 2:17-18). James is emphasizing the point that genuine faith in Christ will produce a changed life and good works (James 2:20-26). James is not saying that justification is by faith plus works, but rather that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his life – then he likely does not have genuine faith in Christ (James 2:14, 17, 20, 26).

Paul says the same thing in his writings. The good fruit believers should have in their lives is listed in Galatians 5:22-23. Immediately after telling us that we are saved by faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9), Paul informs us that we were created to do good works (Ephesians 2:10). Paul expects just as much of a changed life as James does, “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come” (2 Corinthians 5:17)! James and Paul do not disagree on their teaching on salvation. They approach the same subject from different perspectives. Paul simply emphasized that justification is by faith alone while James put emphasis on the fact that faith in Christ produces good works.



from gotquestions.org

That is good example of eisegesis. The person who wrote this is wrong in saying they are talking about the same thing. Paul was talking about the OT, “works of law.”

Eph. 2:8-9 – Paul teaches us that faith is the root of justification, and that faith excludes “works of law.” But Paul does not teach that faith excludes other kinds of works, as we will see below. The verse also does not say we are justified by “faith alone.” It only indicates that faith comes first. This, of course, must be true, because those who do works outside of faith are in a system of debt, not of grace (more on that later). But faith alone does not justify. A man is justified by works, and not by faith alone. James 2:24.

Besides, can you show me in the Catechism of the Catholic Church where it says we are justified by “faith and works” only? You can’t, because it doesn’t.

 

[Lampo]

You’re referring to the Romans passage in which Luther added the word “alone” in his first German translation of the Bible (he had quite a strong response to people who criticized him for it, too! There’s no question that he did it). It was not accepted, by and large, and you won’t find it in any translations now.

Thank you. I guess knowing that about Luther and what he wanted to do shed’s some light on his thinking. Didn’t he also want to throw out the books of Hebrews, James, Jude and Revelation?

 

[Lampo]

we are told that we need to pray about everything but not WORRY about it.

What is the “it” at the end of that sentence referring to?