"If you died right now, are you 100% sure you would go to Heaven? (St. Paul wasn't)

[look3467]

WELL after the Cross! About 1,500 years afterwards was that change in thought!>>>Lampo

Yes, on this side of the cross there is no turning back.

How do you know it was based on Scripture? The Canon of Scripture as we have it today did not exist for at least 200 years AFTER Iranaeus said that.>>>Lampo

Just read it, you’ll find that it relates to scripture. One thing that one is able to do when one has a good knowledge of what is in the scriptures is that when reads something, one can tell from where the thoughts come from, whether they are scriptural or not.

Your point?>>>Lampo

My point is that a baby does not know nothing until it begins to gain knowledge by trial and errors of life.
The church and all its writers, Apostles included, were as babies in Christ, knowing only that salvation is of Christ. Therefore knowing that, they had to grow in the spirit of Christ, as they struggled to work out that which was first in them.

The Catholic Church did not just instantly make, for it too, struggled to identify itself in the midst of a perverse world.
And in those struggles you have read were persecutions, martyrs and heroes of the faith as the church was growing in its infancy to wards a more mature spiritual state.

Today, because of the compilation of books, we have the bible, of which in itself is a complete book of books detailing Gods works in the lives of mankind and our relationship with Him.

The physical Church was good at the beginnings, but because of the bible, the real church, which is the spirit of Christ in all of us, is His body, one body in which all born again souls reside in, is independent of all earthly requirements.
What I mean by that is that the new church is one not made by human hands, but by Gods hands, meaning a spiritual church.

You and I, though of different practices, belong to that one spirit which is Christ, and are of the same body the church, which is again, Christ.

The Catholic Church still does this when She comes to understand Doctrine more deeply - development of Doctrine.>>>Lampo

Yes, I agree, because God in due time and when He feels necessary, gives revelation to His children via the Holy Spirit as part of the growing process.

…in fear and trembling. But in your theology, one does not really have to work out their salvation. They are saved anyway and destined for Heaven.>>>Lampo

Fear and trembling is a metaphor foe another word, diligence, to maintain what you already received, otherwise, the world will take the joy of it away from you.

Much like: falling out of favor with your dad when you were growing up, so you tried to remain in his favor for your peace and joy.

Not really. Want to try again? Why do you think YOU are more enlightened than St. Iranaeus? Where did he and all the other Early Church Fathers get it wrong?>>>Lamo

I am not competing with him nor do I claim to be more enlightened than he.

I know what I know because I sought it out from God, the bible and secular philosophers, life, trial and error and because I was not satisfied with the status quo’s standards of beliefs.

There was this gnaw in my heart that there was something amiss about the belief that unless we accepted Jesus, the rest of the world was going to hell.

That gnaw was I believe, a nudge , from the Holy Spirit to seek out a better answer to my questions.

I am now able to look at all religions differently and without discrimination, and without sentencing them all to hell because of that one statement of Christ, which is: Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
I finnaly understood why He said it!

Peace>>>AJ

 

[mgrfin]

I was talking about Jesus’ words prior to the cross that had to remain in the same stage of thought, until the cross of which afterwords, was there a change effected .

That article you quoted is an opinion based on scripture written afterwords like you said.

The church and the messages of the church and the Apostles, started out in infancy, as like a baby, and this so great a salvation, performed by God in our behalf, had to grow by the Guidance of the Holy Spirit as men were led to write, compile and eventually, put together the bible.

The Catholic Church did not just start up with a set of rules, it had to have a beginning, of which each step of the way was tried and tested.

Salvation is there for every one to receive, and once it is received, the clean out process begins, termed, “Working out your salvation”.

I probably didn’t answer your question as you would like to have me to.

Peace>>>AJ

Hey AJ

For the second time, you promised that you were leaving this tread, and for the second time, you came back.

My blessing mustn’t have worked.

peace

 

[look3467]

Hey AJ

For the second time, you promised that you were leaving this tread, and for the second time, you came back.

My blessing mustn’t have worked.

peace

I’m sorry mgrfin, but lampo wanted me to discuss things on the forum rather than in private which I came back to do.

You tell me, what would be proper?
If you say so, I’ll clean delete my whole access to this website.
There several thousand out there I could go to.
So, I have no problem.

And your blessing, are always welcome, bless your heart.
Peace>>>AJ

 

[mgrfin]

I’m sorry mgrfin, but lampo wanted me to discuss things on the forum rather than in private which I came back to do.

You tell me, what would be proper?
If you say so, I’ll clean delete my whole access to this website.
There several thousand out there I could go to.
So, I have no problem.

And your blessing, are always welcome, bless your heart.
Peace>>>AJ

There are certainly lots of good ideas there.

peace

 

[jfallaw]

I personally thank God in Jesus for saving my soul from my own inapt abilities and can rest )Rest assured) that He is able to hold on to me.

Peace>>>AJ

How perfectly vain! how perfectly selfish! how perfectly protestant!! You trust that Jesus is ‘able to hold onto’ you. Are you not just demanding that Jesus do all the work STILL, even after dying to renew fellowship between you and God? “That’s all good, Jesus, but I’m lazy! I don’t want to try to avoid sin and live a moral life and spread the Gospel! YOU hold onto ME, even when I throw YOU away!”

 

[jfallaw]

How perfectly vain! how perfectly selfish! how perfectly protestant!! You trust that Jesus is ‘able to hold onto’ you. Are you not just demanding that Jesus do all the work STILL, even after dying to renew fellowship between you and God? “That’s all good, Jesus, but I’m lazy! I don’t want to try to avoid sin and live a moral life and spread the Gospel! YOU hold onto ME, even when I throw YOU away!”

or at least that’s how it sounds to an admittedly adament apologist!

 

[justinthemartyr]

as a protestant bible church goer, i believed that I could have sex outside of marriage, use contraception, sleep with more than one woman at the same time, use pornography, and still go to heaven without repenting. The other people in the churches I went to believed the same thing(majority). Many of them were doing the same thing, and some with me.

MY brother in law who is a presbyterian pastor believes he can murder someone in cold blood and not repent and go to heaven. I am not talking about self defense, I asked him if he premeditated the murder of an innocent person and carried it out, would he go to heaven without sorrow or repentance? he said absolutely.

another fruit of sola scriptura

 

[look3467]

I am out of here for good!
All I can say, is your going to me me when I’m gone.
I last word to jfallaw, you ought to thank the heavens that you don’t have to rely on your own good deeds so that God can find you worthy of heaven.
Your worthiness is as filthy rags unless you have the righteousness of Christ to make you worthy.

If He promises to hold on to you, and you accept it, then guess what? He never changes and His promises are sure.

So, study on, don’t be afraid to venture out of the norm, because if you are, you will not learn anything new about your Savior.

Peace and love to you all.

I’m not a member any more, I’ve deleted all my information

Bye!

 

[war_eagle]

1 Cor. 9:27 - “No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.”

So, how does Paul not wanting to discredit himself from preaching the Gospel show that he didn’t know whether or not he was saved?

 

[Lampo]

So, how does Paul not wanting to discredit himself from preaching the Gospel show that he didn’t know whether or not he was saved?

1 Cor. 9:24-27 – Paul says that all the runners compete, but only one wins the prize. Paul recognizes that if he doesn’t train himself properly in perseverance, he too can become “disqualified.” The word “disqualified” comes from the Greek word “adokimos” which literally means cut off from Christ, or reprobate. When “adokimos” is used in the Scriptures, it always refers to those who are to be condemned by God. It has nothing to do with going to heaven with less rewards. See, for example, Rom. 1:28; Titus 1:16; 2 Tim. 3:8; Heb. 6:8; 2 Cor. 13:5-7. This proves that Saint Paul thought he could lose his salvation. No one would reasonably argue that Paul wasn’t “saved” when he wrote the Scriptures. So if Saint Paul thought that he could lose his salvation, why do many Protestants think that they cannot lose theirs?

1 Cor. 9:24 – Paul says that only one wins the “prize” (brabeion). To further prove that the race Paul is writing about refers to our journey to heaven, “brabeion” always has a soteriological implication. See, for example, Phil. 3:14 where “prize” refers to the upward call of God in Christ Jesus (which is heaven).

1 Cor. 9:25 – Paul writes about achieving the “imperishable” (aphthartos) wreath. Again, to further prove Paul is writing about salvation, “aphthartos” always refers to the eternal. See, for example, 1 Cor. 15:51 (the only other place in NT Scripture where “aphthartos” appears relative to humans) where Paul says the dead will be raised “imperishable.” This refers to the resurrection of our salvation. See also 1 Tim. 1:17 where the King of ages is called “immortal” (imperishable).

 

[DLC]

God promises heaven to all those who by faith alone in Christ accept Him as their personal Savior. This what the bible clearly teaches. Water Baptism does not more to save a person that taking a shower does. Read Eph. 2:8-9; John 3:15-19, 36; John 5:24;; 6:47; 20:30-31; 1 John 5:11-14; 2 Tim 3:14-15 just to name a few verses. God says that these verses guarentee heaven to those who accept them and do what they says to do.

DLC

 

[Mannyfit75]

God promises heaven to all those who by faith alone in Christ accept Him as their personal Savior. This what the bible clearly teaches. Water Baptism does not more to save a person that taking a shower does. Read Eph. 2:8-9; John 3:15-19, 36; John 5:24;; 6:47; 20:30-31; 1 John 5:11-14; 2 Tim 3:14-15 just to name a few verses. God says that these verses guarentee heaven to those who accept them and do what they says to do.

DLC

guarentee? It is very possible to lose yourself to sin and fall after being saved. Jesus said that we must, “And you shall be hated by all men for my name’s sake: but he **that shall persevere **unto the end, he shall be saved.”

If we do not persevere, we will not be saved. But not persevering, we are lost in sin and very much dead in sin as well. Our names will be taken out of the Book of Life.

2 Thess 2:
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[Lampo]

God promises heaven to all those who by faith alone in Christ accept Him as their personal Savior.

Where is that in Scripture? The only place I know of where the words “faith alone” appear is in James 2:24 - “See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

 

[whatisthetruth]

Bump

Hi all,

From reading this thread, I can see there is a lot of opinions on the subject matter “If you died right now, are you 100% sure you would go to Heaven”

How awesome would it be to know for sure that heaven’s door is waiting for you?

vs.

Going through life and not being 100 % sure where you will be spending eternity

I do not know about you, but if there was a way, I would want to know about it, wouldn’t you?

The bible does give a way…

**Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life:no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6 **

The bible also says
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. Rom 3:23

…the gift of God is eternal life. Rom 6:23

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life." 1John 5:13

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Rom 10:9

Isn’t God saying I love you all and I have a wonderful gift for you?

His gift…

“…thou shalt be saved.” Rom 10:9
“…may know that ye have eternal life.” 1John 5:13
“…have everlasting life.” John3:16
“…eternal life.” Rom 6:23

Isn’t it now our choice to
believe it or not believe it?
accept His gift or reject His gift?

I posted below a link to a youtube video from a youth conference which addresses this issue head on. The speaker is Pastor Paul Washer. director of Heart Cry Missionary Society.

The video, from opening to closing prayer is 60 mins in length. Leave yourself time to view it. I heard every second of the video and it was worth every second.

Paul’s message changed the way I now look at salvation.

Paul Washer
youtube.com/watch?v=uuabITeO4l8

In doing research, I came accross a written sermon on salvation given by Charles Sturgeon, a Baptist minister.

Charles Sturgeon
spurgeon.org/sermons/1516.htm

I look forward to your feedbback

Truth

 

[Lampo]

Bump

Hi all,

From reading this thread, I can see there is a lot of opinions on the subject matter “If you died right now, are you 100% sure you would go to Heaven”

How awesome would it be to know for sure that heaven’s door is waiting for you?

vs.

Going through life and not being 100 % sure where you will be spending eternity

I do not know about you, but if there was a way, I would want to know about it, wouldn’t you?

The bible does give a way…

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life:no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6

The bible also says
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. Rom 3:23

…the gift of God is eternal life. Rom 6:23

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life." 1John 5:13

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Rom 10:9

Isn’t God saying I love you all and I have a wonderful gift for you?

His gift…

“…thou shalt be saved.” Rom 10:9
“…may know that ye have eternal life.” 1John 5:13
“…have everlasting life.” John3:16
“…eternal life.” Rom 6:23

Isn’t it now our choice to
believe it or not believe it?
accept His gift or reject His gift?

I posted below a link to a youtube video from a youth conference which addresses this issue head on. The speaker is Pastor Paul Washer. director of Heart Cry Missionary Society.

The video, from opening to closing prayer is 60 mins in length. Leave yourself time to view it. I heard every second of the video and it was worth every second.

Paul’s message changed the way I now look at salvation.

Paul Washer
youtube.com/watch?v=uuabITeO4l8

In doing research, I came accross a written sermon on salvation given by Charles Sturgeon, a Baptist minister.

Charles Sturgeon
spurgeon.org/sermons/1516.htm

I look forward to your feedbback

Truth

As a Catholic, I agree with 100% of the passages you quoted. Just not your personal, fallible interpretation. Why did Jesus Christ say that we must “endure to the end to be saved”? (See Mt 10:22; 24:13; Mk 13:13).

Catholics know we are saved, so long as we persevere in faith. We know salvation is ours to lose. Just like St. Paul knew he might be disqualified.

 

[mgrfin]

God promises heaven to all those who by faith alone in Christ accept Him as their personal Savior. This what the bible clearly teaches. Water Baptism does not more to save a person that taking a shower does. Read Eph. 2:8-9; John 3:15-19, 36; John 5:24;; 6:47; 20:30-31; 1 John 5:11-14; 2 Tim 3:14-15 just to name a few verses. God says that these verses guarentee heaven to those who accept them and do what they says to do.

DLC

Baptism is required for salvation.

And “faith alone” does not save us.

I won’t waste your time with quotes to the proof of each. These tenets have been rejected by Christ’s Church for 2,000 years.

But, if you need Scriptural quotes:
Matt 26:26-28
Mark 6:13
John 3:4-5, 22
Acts 16:30-33
Acts 22:16
Romans 6:2-4
Titus 3:3-7

As for salvation by ‘faith alone" all you have to do is read James’ Epistle.

peace
peace

 

[whatisthetruth]

Hi Lampo

Thank you for you comments,

As a Catholic, I agree with 100% of the passages you quoted.

I am glad agree on something, thats a good start.

Just not your personal, fallible interpretation.

I am sorry to hear you think the interpretation is fallible. Just to let you know, I posted on how I was led by the Holy Spirit.

Why did Jesus Christ say that we must “endure to the end to be saved”?

Excellent question, I often ask God…

God I accepted your gift of salvation, if you are a good God, why are you allowing all these struggles in my life… (health issues, financial stress, marital problems…) ??

God revealed to me that just because I am saved, does not mean I won’t have struggles and be free from temptation.

Then He gave me his word…

Be strong and courageous. Do not be afraid or terrified because of them, for the LORD your God goes with you; he will never leave you nor forsake you." Deuteronomy 31:6

(See Mt 10:22; 24:13; Mk 13:13).

All men will hate you because of me, but he who **stands firm **to the end will be saved. Mk 13:13
but he who **stands firm **to the end will be saved Mt 24:13
All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will **be saved **Mt 10:22

Excellent reference God’s word comfirms exactly what I just stated above. God says… “Be strong and courageous” and “stand firm” and place your trust in Me “to the end” and I “will be saved.”

Catholics know we are saved, so long as we persevere in faith. We know salvation is ours to lose.
Lampo;3055042:

I agree 100% agree with what I underlined. I am saved too. I very well know if I ever stop believing and having faith in Jesus, I would lose His gift of salvation.
Lampo;3055042:

Just like St. Paul knew he might be disqualified.

Could it be that Paul didn’t feel worthy of God’s grace?

Doesn’t surprise me that Paul would have doubts about his salvation. Heck, if I had a past like Pauls’, I would probably wonder too how could God forgive me of ALL I did?

remember Paul was Saul…

Acts 8:1
And Saul was there, giving approval to his death. (stoning of Stephen)
Acts 8:3
But Saul began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off men and women and put them in prison.
Acts 9:1
Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord’s disciples. He went to the high priest

From that past to the Lord speaking to him…

Acts 9:4
He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”
Acts 9:18
Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul’s eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized,
Acts 9:20
At once he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God.
Acts 9:21 All those who heard him were astonished and asked, "Isn’t he the man who raised havoc in Jerusalem among those who call on this name?
Acts 9:24
but Saul learned of their plan. Day and night they kept close watch on the city gates in order to kill him.
Acts 13:9
Then Saul, who was also called Paul…

Isn’t His grace amazing? Sometimes I feel I do not deserve it either. All He asks of me is to trust Him and allow His devine power to change me into the person He wants me to be. And when I sin,

The bible says…

We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isaiah 53:6

“him” being Jesus
Isn’t God asking us to to believe and accept His promise to us that He gave us His Son Jesus to take the punishment on the cross and pay the ransom for all our sin?

Even though the bible never says be 100% sure, isn’t God’s word more powerful than our human minds can comprehend?

I do not believe Jesus would go through all that pain and suffering and eventual death for a “believer” in Him with the chance the “believer” would not make it to heaven, do you?

lets ask another way…

If there was a chance a true believer would not make it to heaven,
Why then did the Bible say…

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Rom 10:9 truth

The bible could have said…

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou might be saved. lie

Then I think of the song…

Amazing Grace how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me

Thank you

the truth

 

[justinthemartyr]

He won’t leave you, but you can leave him and reject his love and grace and fall from grace.

the whole meaning of the prodigal son.

also read romans 11 and john 15

the branches can be cut off from the true vine(jesus) and wither and be burned,

not words of salvation for branches who were once In Christ.

 

[whatisthetruth]

Hi Lampo

Thank you for you comments,

As a Catholic, I agree with 100% of the passages you quoted.

I am glad agree on something, thats a good start.

Just not your personal, fallible interpretation.

I am sorry to hear you think the interpretation is fallible. Just to let you know, I posted on how I was led by the Holy Spirit.

Why did Jesus Christ say that we must “endure to the end to be saved”?

Excellent question, I often ask God…

God I accepted your gift of salvation, if you are a good God, why are you allowing all these struggles in my life… (health issues, financial stress, marital problems…) ??

God revealed to me that just because I am saved, does not mean I won’t have struggles and be free from temptation.

Then He gave me his word…

Be strong and courageous. Do not be afraid or terrified because of them, for the LORD your God goes with you; he will never leave you nor forsake you." Deuteronomy 31:6

(See Mt 10:22; 24:13; Mk 13:13).

All men will hate you because of me, but he who **stands firm **to the end will be saved. Mk 13:13
but he who **stands firm **to the end will be saved Mt 24:13
All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will **be saved **Mt 10:22

Excellent reference God’s word comfirms exactly what I just stated above. God says… “Be strong and courageous” and “stand firm” “to the end” and I “will be saved.”

“All men will hate you because of me” as they did Paul (referenced below) and as I am finding out with my walk in the Lord.

As Rachel Scott found out at Columbine High School
She stood firm in her belief knowing she would be killed, now that is faith.

Catholics know we are saved, so long as we persevere in faith. We know salvation is ours to lose.
Lampo;3055042:

I agree 100% agree with what I underlined. I am saved too. I very well know if I ever stop believing and having faith in Jesus, I would lose His gift of salvation.
Lampo;3055042:

Just like St. Paul knew he might be disqualified.

Could it be that Paul didn’t feel worthy of God’s grace?

Doesn’t surprise me that Paul would have doubts about his salvation. Heck, if I had a past like Pauls’, I would probably wonder too how could God forgive me of ALL I did?

remember Paul was Saul…

Acts 8:1
And Saul was there, giving approval to his death. (stoning of Stephen)
Acts 8:3
But Saul began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off men and women and put them in prison.
Acts 9:1
Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord’s disciples. He went to the high priest

From that past to the Lord speaking to him…

Acts 9:4
He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”
Acts 9:18
Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul’s eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized,
Acts 9:20
At once he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God.
Acts 9:21 All those who heard him were astonished and asked, "Isn’t he the man who raised havoc in Jerusalem among those who call on this name?
Acts 9:24
but Saul learned of their plan. Day and night they kept close watch on the city gates in order to kill him.
Acts 13:9
Then Saul, who was also called Paul…

Isn’t His grace amazing? Sometimes I feel I do not deserve it either. All He asks of me is to trust Him and allow His devine power to change me into the person He wants me to be. And when I sin,

The bible says…

We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isaiah 53:6

“him” being Jesus
Isn’t God asking us to to believe and accept His promise to us that He gave us His Son Jesus to take the punishment on the cross and pay the ransom for all our sin?

Even though the bible never says be 100% sure, isn’t God’s word more powerful than our human minds can comprehend?

I do not believe Jesus would go through all that pain and suffering and eventual death for a “believer” in Him with the chance the “believer” would not make it to heaven, do you?

lets ask another way…

If there was a chance a true believer would not make it to heaven,
Why then did the Bible say…

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Rom 10:9 truth

instead of

… thou might be saved. lie

Then I think of the song…

Amazing Grace how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me

Thank you

the truth

 

[whatisthetruth]

Hi justinthemartyr

He won’t leave you, but you can leave him and reject his love and grace and fall from grace.
the whole meaning of the prodigal son.
also read romans 11 and john 15
the branches can be cut off from the true vine(jesus) and wither and be burned, not words of salvation for branches who were once In Christ.

I agree with everything you said,

We both agree Jesus will not leave us, He is true to His word

However men do leave Him, as to why I have no idea. You and I have the greatest treasure available to man, there is no way I giving Him up. Having said that, what is there to get in the way of God’s promise to me?

Satan will try hard to win me over, I just keep getting dressed in the “Armour of God”.

Satan loses and God the children of God win

I am happy to invite as many people I can to be on the winning team…God’s team

God bless

truth