If you do Not believe that Blessed Mary is the Mother of God, than who do you believe Jesus Christ is?

[adrift]

WRONG

.
**I alreadsy showed Dokimas the linguistic proof back in post #356 **(which he completely ignored, as usual), Lord means GOD here.

The Greek word for, "Lord" used by Elizabeth in Luke 1:43 is kurios, which usually means “God”.
κυριου noun - genitive singular masculine
**kurios **koo’-ree-os: supreme in authority, i.e. (as noun) controller; by implication, Master (as a respectful title) – God, Lord, master, Sir.

**However, Elizabeth and Mary didn’t **speak Greek, the language of commerce in 1st century Palestine and the surrounding areas. They spoke ARAMAIC. You HAVE to get beyond the Greek to truly understand what was being said in Scripture.

Hebrews 5:8-9: “Though being a Son, he learned obedience through suffering, and being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him”

It was necessary for the Son of God to learn obedience to His Father through suffering, so it also necessary for us to learn obedience to our Lord Jesus through suffering.

**" Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you evil doers." **

So as to the charge of blasphemy, take that up with the writer of Hebrews.
.

Elvis is right about the word Lord and your answer is week. Elvis demonstrated that in this case it does mean God.
The reference to Jesus learning to be perfect is in regards to His finishing His work. Hebrews does not support your statement.

5048 teleioo {tel-i-o’-o} from 5046; TDNT - 8:79,1161; v 1) to make perfect, complete 1a) to carry through completely, to accomplish, finish, bring to an end 2) to complete (perfect) 2a) add what is yet wanting in order to render a thing full 2b) to be found perfect 3) to bring to the end (goal) proposed 4) to accomplish 4a) bring to a close or fulfilment by event 4a1) of the prophecies of the scriptures

The truth for some is irrelevant, being right all the time is more important. Kurios, or Adoni, does not mean God all the time, as numerous examples in the scriptures will show. Enough said, further replys are redundant

This is an unnecessary comment that adds nothing to your argument. I am sure there are examples you might have cites however, in this particular case you have not shown that it meant anything other than God.

It is more likely that she was calling the babe in Mary’s womb, ‘my Lord’ because like all of Israel they were waiting for the anointed one of God. They were waiting for the promised Messiah who would be their Lord-ruler over Israel, their king.

More likely? By what logic? You explanation makes no sense as to what other meaning than God it could be.

 

[Dokimas]

**Yup **- I gave you a laundry list of them on another thread.
They include altar calls, the sinner’s prayer, immersion only Baptism, denial of the Trinity, Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, etc. - NONE of which are Biblical.

Who denies the Trinity??? That’s a new one on me.

See, I can learn something new from you.

 

[Dokimas]

And what would that presupposition be?
You keep referring to my presuppositions but you don’t elaborate.

I’m sorry, I thought they are obvious. I don’t want to spend any time on this because it’s off topic. If you want an answer, please send me a private post.

 

[Nicea325]

Who denies the Trinity??? That’s a new one on me.

See, I can learn something new from you.

Mormons,Jehovah Witnesses and scores of other sects and cults.

God Bless you friend.

 

[Dokimas]

Cop-out.
Jesus ONLY spoke truth - nothing else.
Either you believe him to be true or he is a liar.

At it again, I see.

 

[Cinette]

… but those of us who are non-catholic Christians do???

*Yes Dokimas, I’m afraid you do.

Do you know the difference between Tradition with a capital T and tradition with a small t? Protestantism emanates from the latter - it is a man-made tradition.

When Jesus founded His Church he said that the devil would never prevail against it. He warned that there would be attacks on the Church and we have seen heresies from the very beginning. The Church has to be constantly alert and renewal is a constant effort. Conversion is ongoing. We need to constantly renew ourselves, constantly fight against temptation and heresies. When Luther criticized the Church many of the reforms needed were being addressed. There was no need to leave the Church and begin a new church. We saw what happened Protestantism has been splintering into new groups, new denominations eversince.

Yes it was wrong to separate from the Church Jesus founded. That doesn’t make Protestantism something to be hated. We know full well that many non-Catholics are good Christians who are sincere and committed.

Cinette *

 

[Dokimas]

Mormons,Jehovah Witnesses and scores of other sects and cults.

God Bless you friend.

Can you be a Christian and deny the Trinity?

BTW, the Mormons claim they go back farther in history than the CC does. They, therefore, seem to have some commonality with you, too.

Mormons and JW’s believe they are correct and all others have “missed the boat”. That’s something they have in common with the CC.

That being said, both the Mormons and the JW’s are not as close to the CC as all non-catholic Christians.

 

[Dokimas]

*Yes Dokimas, I’m afraid you do.

Do you know the difference between Tradition with a capital T and tradition with a small t? Protestantism emanates from the latter - it is a man-made tradition.

When Jesus founded His Church he said that the devil would never prevail against it. He warned that there would be attacks on the Church and we have seen heresies from the very beginning. The Church has to be constantly alert and renewal is a constant effort. Conversion is ongoing. We need to constantly renew ourselves, constantly fight against temptation and heresies. When Luther criticized the Church many of the reforms needed were being addressed. There was no need to leave the Church and begin a new church. We saw what happened Protestantism has been splintering into new groups, new denominations eversince.

Yes it was wrong to separate from the Church Jesus founded. That doesn’t make Protestantism something to be hated. We know full well that many non-Catholics are good Christians who are sincere and committed.

Cinette *

I’m sure you don’t see the condescention here.

I see you as an equal with differing understanding. I get NO such communications by so many catholics like yourself.

Seeing you as an equal is why it bothers me so much when I’m called anti-catholic. It’s so far from the truth.

 

[PRmerger]

… but those of us who are non-catholic Christians do???

Indeed, you do, sadly. :sad_yes:

Sola Scriptura is one tradition that’s a biggie in the “not accurate” list.

 

[Nicea325]

Can you be a Christian and deny the Trinity?

BTW, the Mormons claim they go back farther in history than the CC does. They, therefore, seem to have some commonality with you, too.

Mormons and JW’s believe they are correct and all others have “missed the boat”. That’s something they have in common with the CC.

That being said, both the Mormons and the JW’s are not as close to the CC as all non-catholic Christians.

Indeed,Mormons ‘claim’ they go back further than the CC does. It is nice to dream and much harder to accept when reality sets in.

Mormons and JW’s have nothing in common with the CC. Both never got on the right boat to begin with nor have they traveled the same distance as the CC.

Unfortunately imitations are the sincerest form of flattery!

God Bless

 

[adrift]

Can you be a Christian and deny the Trinity?

BTW, the Mormons claim they go back farther in history than the CC does. They, therefore, seem to have some commonality with you, too.

Mormons and JW’s believe they are correct and all others have “missed the boat”. That’s something they have in common with the CC.

That being said, both the Mormons and the JW’s are not as close to the CC as all non-catholic Christians.

The Jehovah Witnesses make this claim but I didn’t know the Church of Latter Day Saints did. Are you sure they make this claim?

 

[Dokimas]

The Jehovah Witnesses make this claim but I didn’t know the Church of Latter Day Saints did. Are you sure they make this claim?

Pretty sure.

 

[Dokimas]

Indeed, you do, sadly. :sad_yes:

Sola Scriptura is one tradition that’s a biggie in the “not accurate” list.

Anyone else see some irony here?

 

[Cinette]

*I can never understand how intelligent men and women can buy into Sola Scriptura. It doesn’t make sense at all!

It definitely is a tradition of man.

Cinette*

 

[Singinbeauty]

**Yup **- I gave you a laundry list of them on another thread.

Let’s take a look at them - shall we?

altar calls,

I know from my previous experience here a couple of years ago that most catholics do not know what an alter call actually is (which means that some will argue against what they THINK it is and not ask questions which is ironically what they hate protestants to do… Huh) and what level of importance it holds.

And it is biblical! What does Jesus ask of us every day??? He asked people to profess His Truth - To acknowledge Him and John the Baptist called people to come forth and be baptized.

An Alter Call is just a form of acknowledging our need for Christ - A VERY public one. I have witnessed a few myself and it is moving to see people put aside their pride and humbly come forth to receive Christ and be prayed for.

the sinner’s prayer,

Again, biblical! There is no magic prayer and if you can find one I would like to see it! What is referred to as ‘The Sinner’s Prayer’ is a prayer that one prays acknowledging they are sinners and that they need Christ - SHOCK, I bet you even a catholic or two (or maybe all of y’all) have acknowledged this to Christ, especially your first one when you came to know your need for Him… Yup, even catholics say a sinner’s prayer, because you can’t claim Christian if you don’t acknowledge your sin to God and your need for Him.

It’s not magical but it is the first step on your road to finding Him, whether it be as a catholic or a non-catholic…

immersion only Baptism

I don’t know that it has to be immersion ONLY - I have never heard a hard ruling that this is the one and only way. You’d have to ask someone who holds hard and fast to this.

denial of the Trinity

Don’t know how you can deny the Trinity and not sure that those who do are actually christians.

That being said - When you lump us all (meaning non-catholics) together you end up telling me I follow traditions, doctrines and beliefs that I don’t actually hold and therefore you put words in my mouth and end up driving a wedge in our communication. It’s not becoming of ANYONE…

Sola Scriptura

I depend on more than just Scripture to guide me but I do believe that Scripture cannot be ignored in your walk with God. So I guess you can say I don’t believe in Sola Scriptura…

Sola Fide

This is Faith only, right? Nope, don’t subscribe to this either. The Bible states that it is through our Faith that we obtain Grace from God to be Saved, you can’t have one without the other.

Ephesians 2:8 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God

I hope I have been able to shed SOME light on the items brought up…

 

[adrift]

Let’s take a look at them - shall we?

I know from my previous experience here a couple of years ago that most catholics do not know what an alter call actually is (which means that some will argue against what they THINK it is and not ask questions which is ironically what they hate protestants to do… Huh) and what level of importance it holds.

And it is biblical! What does Jesus ask of us every day??? He asked people to profess His Truth - To acknowledge Him and John the Baptist called people to come forth and be baptized.

An Alter Call is just a form of acknowledging our need for Christ - A VERY public one. I have witnessed a few myself and it is moving to see people put aside their pride and humbly come forth to receive Christ and be prayed for.

Again, biblical! There is no magic prayer and if you can find one I would like to see it! What is referred to as ‘The Sinner’s Prayer’ is a prayer that one prays acknowledging they are sinners and that they need Christ - SHOCK, I bet you even a catholic or two (or maybe all of y’all) have acknowledged this to Christ, especially your first one when you came to know your need for Him… Yup, even catholics say a sinner’s prayer, because you can’t claim Christian if you don’t acknowledge your sin to God and your need for Him.

.

Altar calls are biblical as is the sinner’s prayer? Please provide the Scripture.

 

[PRmerger]

I know from my previous experience here a couple of years ago that most catholics do not know what an alter call actually is (which means that some will argue against what they THINK it is and not ask questions which is ironically what they hate protestants to do… Huh) and what level of importance it holds.

One question I have: why is it called an “altar” call, when there’s no altar in your church?

 

[zarthan]

Elvis is right about the word Lord and your answer is week. Elvis demonstrated that in this case it does mean God.
The reference to Jesus learning to be perfect is in regards to His finishing His work. Hebrews does not support your statement.

This is an unnecessary comment that adds nothing to your argument. I am sure there are examples you might have cites however, in this particular case you have not shown that it meant anything other than God.

More likely? By what logic? You explanation makes no sense as to what other meaning than God it could be.

The scripture refers to the Son of God learning to be obedient. What could be more plain than that? By learning obedience to his Father’s will, the Son of God became perfect.
It is obvious that your theological presuppositions are interfering with the clear understanding of this scripture.

I have given examples of Jesus and others being called kurios, and adoni which means other than ‘God’, but once again, you choose to interpret scripture from your theological presuppositions.

Let’s just say, that the scripture in question may be interpreted either as God, or master. Does that satisfy you? Eventhough, everyone knows that the Jewish people including Elizabeth were not looking for God to be their Messiah. They were looking for a human being as a descendant of David, to be the Messiah** of God**(the anointed of God) to rescue Israel as their victorious king over their occupational enemies, the Roman Empire.

Enough said. God have mercy on us all.

 

[adrift]

The scripture refers to the Son of God learning to be obedient. What could be more plain than that? By learning obedience to his Father’s will, the Son of God became perfect.

5048 teleioo {tel-i-o’-o} from 5046; TDNT - 8:79,1161; v 1) to make perfect, complete 1a) to carry through completely, to accomplish, finish, bring to an end 2) to complete (perfect) 2a) add what is yet wanting in order to render a thing full 2b) to be found perfect 3) to bring to the end (goal) proposed 4) to accomplish 4a) bring to a close or fulfilment by event 4a1) of the prophecies of the scriptures

The word used in the Greek for learning to be perfect is defined above. What it means is that Jesus had fulfilled what He came here to do.

It is obvious that your theological presuppositions are interfering with the clear understanding of this scripture

ad hominem attacks prove nothing.

I have given examples of Jesus and others being called kurios, and adoni which means other than ‘God’, but once again, you choose to interpret scripture from your theological presuppositions.

You have not shown that it meant anything other than God. Again you use a Ad Hominem attack.

Let’s just say, that the scripture in question may be interpreted either as God, or master. Does that satisfy you? Eventhough, everyone knows that the Jewish people including Elizabeth were not looking for God to be their Messiah. They were looking for a human being as a descendant of David, to be the Messiah** of God**(the anointed of God) to rescue Israel as their victorious king over their occupational enemies, the Roman Empire.

Enough said. God have mercy on us all.

What you ignore is that

and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit

What she uttered was from the Holy Spirit. What you have admitted to is either she said
that the mother of my Lord (Master) or (God) should come unto me? Your explanation does not account for the inspiration of the Spirit.

 

[benedictus2]

Not so. Just one scripture in Hebrew OT that contradicts what you are claiming.

Ps.110:1 “The LORD (Adonai) said to** my Lord (Adoni), **sit thou at my right hand until I make thine enemies your footstool”.

Adonai refers to God Almighty, Adoni refers to someone else with authority. In this scripture God the Father (Adonai) is speaking to His Son, our Lord (Adoni) Jesus Christ.

I asked this of Dokimas but he seems to be stumped for an answer so maybe you can answer this one.

When Elizabeth referered to Mary as Mother of m Lord, what do you think she meant by the word Lord?