If you do Not believe that Blessed Mary is the Mother of God, than who do you believe Jesus Christ is?

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agapewarrior said:
I guess I have to apologize that my relationship with Jesus focuses on Jesus. I’m strangely Christ-oriented like that 😉

Edit: Very selfish of me I suppose to rely on Him alone…

Double Edit [extended version]: Do I frown upon people beseeching Mary to lobby for their prayers? No. I simply find it more convenient to go straight to Jesus with my requests. Mary deserves respect, but as I said before, her spiritual signifigance in Christianity doesn’t elevate her above any other woman of God, nor would it be her wish to be placed upon a pedestal. Of course she would deliver any of your prayers to the Son because she IS a good godly woman, but Jesus cares for us much more than we can comprehend. Also, I am absolutely certain she is not bored if you think you’re honoring her with something to do 😉
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*The Catholic Church is very Christ-centered. Nothing could be more Christ-centered than the Eucharist which is celebrated during Holy Mass every day all over the world.

You obviously have a problem with Mary and her role in the Church and you are not alone. Many great Catholic converts also struggled with Mary at first and some became her greatest advocates.

It is just that for those of us who love and venerate her and who regard her as our Mother it is hurtful to hear anyone deny her her status and value.

:):):)*
 
rev_kevin said:
No I don’t think that the HS meant anything other than Mary is the MOTHER OF GOD.
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:extrahappy:
But I don’t think Elizabeth knew that Jesus was also God reguardless of what the HS inspired her to say.
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Fair enough. **But irrelevant. ** She still called Mary the MOTHER OF GOD, under the INSPIRATION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, who cannot proclaim error.
 
Cinette said:
*The Catholic Church is very Christ-centered. Nothing could be more Christ-centered than the Eucharist which is celebrated during Holy Mass every day all over the world.

You obviously have a problem with Mary and her role in the Church and you are not alone. Many great Catholic converts also struggled with Mary at first and some became her greatest advocates.

It is just that for those of us who love and venerate her and who regard her as our Mother it is hurtful to hear anyone deny her her status and value.

:):):)*
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Looks like the moderater made him disappear already. It’s a shame people feel the need to attack what is so precious to Catholics.
 
Dokimas said:
Most likely she did not know He was God.
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rev_kevin said:
No I don’t think that the HS meant anything other than Mary is the MOTHER OF GOD. But I don’t think Elizabeth knew that Jesus was also God reguardless of what the HS inspired her to say.
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It is time to put an end to the preposterous argument that Elizabeth had not idea that the child in Mary’s womb was not God. Not only is there NO Biblical support for this relatively new invention – the exact opposite is true. In fact - this claim can only be made by people who do NOT know the Scriptures.

The Jews knew the Ccriptures in relation to their messiah and Isaiah 9:6 explicitly calls the messiah, “GOD”:

NIV
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

NASB
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

KJV
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Elizabeth - AND Mary knew who the child was.
**End **of story.
 
elvisman said:
It is time to put an end to the preposterous argument that Elizabeth had not idea that the child in Mary’s womb was not God

Elvis, whether Elizabeth knew or did not know that Mary was carrying God in her womb is irrelevant, no? Elizabeth proclaimed it after being prompted by the Holy Spirit.

Her understanding of what she was proclaiming does not diminish that the Holy Spirit proclaimed it. The Scriptures attest to the fact that Mary was the Mother of God. Period.
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AMEN,

Well, thats one scripture verse that you’ll never forget again.

So, has Luke 1:43 now been officially graduated? 🙂
 
PRmerger said:
Elvis, whether Elizabeth knew or did not know that Mary was carrying God in her womb is irrelevant, no? Elizabeth proclaimed it after being prompted by the Holy Spirit.

Her understanding of what she was proclaiming does not diminish that the Holy Spirit proclaimed it. The Scriptures attest to the fact that Mary was the Mother of God. Period.
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As for the Holy Spirit’s inspiration - absolutely.
Irrelevant? No, because a handful of people on this thread are making whether or not Elizabeth or Mary knew that the child was God the ENTIRE issue. They have employed some very rudimentary linguistic “evidence” (only in the Greek, mind you) that is pretty irrelevant.

Therefore, I believe it was necessary to employ the passge from Isaiah to finally prove that what they were doing was nothing short of Scriptural acrobatics - and not very good ones at that.
 
Ya I know that. My point is that the word Lord has more meanings than just God.
 
pismopal said:
Is it possible that you are twisting yourself into a pretzel in an effort to disagree with the Catholic (and others including Luther) understanding of Mary? Somebody here said that changing the nature of Christ is heresy and that is exactly what it is.
I was sent a humorous bromide the other day which read…" There is nothing so terrible as being in the middle of an argument with someone and suddenly realizing that you are wrong."🤷
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I don’t try to disagree with the CC. That’s not my goal in life. I read and think for myself and sometimes I disagree with what you guys say the CC teaches. I think it’s as simple as that. BTW, I was never catholic.
 
Reuben_J said:
This is a very weak argument from you.

If the Holy Spirit inspired her then what she said is the truth. How can that not be? It is preposterous to say that the Holy Spirit did not know what he is talking about. If she said ‘the Mother of God’ then that’s about what it means – the Mother of God.

It is not what the Jews believed; it is what she said as inspired by the Holy Spirit. If the Jews or Elizabeth did not believe in the Trinity, then all the more it makes sense for the Holy Spirit to tell them.

Granted, the Lord could mean king or people of royalty but it does not matter because that’s what we call Jesus too. He is King, he is Lord and he is the Messiah. We only know what these terms mean and they are definitely not human king, lord and messiah.

Lk1:43 is a strong case for the litany of Mary the Mother of God and when we say so, we are only echoing Elizabeth – the Biblical figure who was filled with the Holy Spirit who exclaimed the truth of the incarnation.
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Where in the world do you see that they believed in the trinity?

Luke 1:43 is not a strong case that Mary is the Mother of God, although we know she was but back then I don’t think so. They knew he would be The Son of God as stated in Luke 1:35 "So your baby born to you will be holy, and he will be called the Son of God. In Luke 1:32 “He will be very great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God" will give him the throne of his ancestor David.”
Luke 1:42 "You are blessed by God above all other women, and your child is blessed. I believe she knew he was the Son of God.
 
PRmerger said:
When Paul proclaims that Jesus is Lord, what do you think Paul was expressing?
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I thought I was in a discussion of what people believe ‘Lord’ meant with respect to Jesus before the resurrection, not after. Plus, didn’t you just tell me, and I agreed with you, there’s human lords (in the case of Jesus - Human Lord) and Lord referring to God. Jesus had a Human body and was called the Son of Man.
 
pablope said:
Sorry dok…did not mean to be silly or attact you, it is just when you stated the following:

Then you are questioning the very Bible itself, are you not? Are you not putting your own qualifications to the Bible over God’s, on what it should be versus what it is to the present? Then your trust, and your faith, are you not then questioning these and God’s wisdom?
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What I was questioning was the use of ‘Lord’ by people in the Gospels when referring to Jesus. I don’t think most of them knew He was God so they’d mean something quite different. He was Human.
 
benedictus2 said:
You’re sidestepping here again.

What do you think she meant by the term Lord? Who is this Lord for Elizabeth?

You must have some idea since you said that she did not know He was God. So what was this Lord for her then?
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I believe I gave the Greek word and it’s meaning at least once to show what I think. Would you like me to post it again?

Prophets made statements often in the OT and they did not know what they meant.
 
adrift said:
For thirty years she lived with Jesus. At the wedding at Cana she asked for His help. She told the waiters to do what he tells you. What do you think she expected? Do you really believe that in those thirty years she didn’t know who Jesus was? Doesn’t her request at the wedding indicate differently?
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Elizabeth lived with Jesus for 30 years???
 
agapewarrior said:
Well… I stumbled upon this thread and I don’t think of myself as particularly great of understanding. I’m not a genius, but it’s rather obvious that Mary did indeed give birth to Jesus Christ. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Then the word became flesh and dwelt among us. That’s easy enough to understand that Mary was the woman who was entrusted with the delivery of our Lord and saviour. However, I believe that the significance ends there. Mary is not the saviour, nor is she God, nor did she desire to be anything more than a good godly woman. I have no doubt in my mind that her humbleness would have her rather ashamed at the focus that has been devoted to her instead of the true saviour of our faith. When examining our faith, doctrine, and history, all too often we allow ourselves to lose sight of God’s goodness and love for all of us. As I said before, I’m not a genius, but these facts seem very plain to me.
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Looks like we are in agreement. I hope that doesn’t mean others look down upon you becasue I agree with you.😃
 
Dokimas said:
Looks like we are in agreement. I hope that doesn’t mean others look down upon you becasue I agree with you.😃
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Look down on you because you agree with a guy that got himself banned in less than 24 hours? Not us. 😉
 
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