Illegal aliens murder 12 Americans daily

[Ituyu]

The drain from the schools, law enforcement, and hospitals would have saved the taxpayers lots of money. I know I know… you don’t see that.

Those quite a few reports I read back me up as for the money spent on illegals. Money that is wasted.

 

[Jeffrey]

Lets just say… i’ll take that chance. That would mean plenty of jobs for the USA citizens then.

Still say they are a drain… i know i know you say different.

I also just say… lets agree to disagree.

I didn’t say that there were no costs associated with “illegal” immigration but that the benefits outweigh the costs, leaving us with a “net gain”. That’s what economists say. I know, I know you say different.

Do the math Jeffrey. There are 6.8 million unemployed in the US. According to the best guesstimates there are 12-20 million “illegals” working in the US. If you were to remove the “illegal” population using the more conservative figure, that would leave you short 5.2 million workers.

I’m not sure that these figures are correct but l’ll give you the benefit of the doubt. The consensus among economists still say that those costs are more than made up by the economic growth the “illegal” provide this country and the costs of not having them here would come at a tremendous cost to us.

 

[Ituyu]

Lets just say… i’ll take that chance. That would mean plenty of jobs for the USA citizens then.

It would mean, if these figures are correct that you just broke the bank.

Still say they are a drain… i know i know you say different.

 

[BlyssfulDreamer]

Do the math Jeffrey. There are 6.8 million unemployed in the US. According to the best guesstimates there are 12-20 million “illegals”

 

[BlyssfulDreamer]

Do the math Jeffrey. There are 6.8 million unemployed in the US. According to the best guesstimates there are 12-20 million “illegals” working in the US. If you were to remove the “illegal” population using the more conservative figure, that would leave you short 5.2 million workers.

 

[BlyssfulDreamer]

theamericanresistance.com/articles/art2004jan04.html

:heart:Blyss

 

[BlyssfulDreamer]

Illegal aliens are NOT necessarily coming here to work. Lou Dobbs recently reported that 33 percent of our prison population is now comprised of non-citizens. Plus, 36 to 42 percent of illegal aliens are on welfare. So, for a good proportion of these people, the American dream is crime and welfare, not coming here to work.

1. Illegal aliens are NOT doing work Americans won’t do. What jobs won’t Americans do? In most states, Americans still clean their own houses, do their own landscaping, clean hotel rooms, work in restaurants and fast food places, paint houses, DO CONSTRUCTION WORK, work in airports, etc. - just like we have the past 200 years before “our” government allowed these people to invade our country. There are 18 million Americans who cannot find a job, so illegal aliens who are coming here to work do so at peril to American workers.
2. Illegal aliens absolutely do not contribute more than they cost. Certainly the millions in prison and on welfare aren’t contributing a dime to our economy, and the ones who are working often are paid in cash with no deductions for taxes at all. The ones who use fraudulent social security numbers and qualify to pay taxes and social security have so many deductions for dependents that they pay little if any taxes. We have seen them pay less than $100 in taxes and get back $4,000 refunds (thanks to earned income tax credits and multiple dependents).Some bargain, eh?

***From the link in my previous post…:yup:

:heart:Blyss***

 

[BlyssfulDreamer]

There is absolutely no credible indication that Hispanic immigrants assimilate any differently than any other immigrant group. By the third generation

 

[BlyssfulDreamer]

Will Blyss your inappropriate comments are stressing my ability to be charitable. There can be no comparing the two economies. Mexico’s economic situation is another obfuscation. It is not the issue here. The issue is these people within our borders and our labor shortage. What happens in Mexico today is another issue and what could have been is an unknown. We will never know what would have been. But who cares? What does that have to do with the market forces of Supply and Demand? What does it have to do with why we arbitrarily closed the door?
QUOTE]

 

[BlyssfulDreamer]

How can we not recognize that our standard of living is higher because of them? Whatever you may think, whatever guides your heart, know this, we are better off for their presence and I hate to think what kind of nation we would have without the contributions all our immigrants have made throughout our history. But, today it is they who are answering the call to fill the jobs we need done and always have only now in greater numbers. Blyss, what have you done to make this nation great? I for one cannot take any credit.

 

[Ituyu]

Ituyu;1840919:

Ituyu…so you finally *“accept” *

the numbers I gave you on the number of illegals in this country? But you **do realize **though that those numbers, I am sure do not represent that ALL of those illegals are working…or do you have stats to back that up? I think that numbers represents the total sum of illegals who are in this country. Tick…tock…


:heart:Blyss

Oh silly Blyss, you’ve posted the 20 million “guesstimate”. That much is true. You’ll notice that I used the lower number of 12 million, even though the higher number works against you most, to illustrate a point. And, you’ll notice that I used a premise of ZERO unemployment. Our economy will not work well with zero unemployment. It works best at or near our current levels. So Blyss, no matter how you care to manipulate the figures to your favor, you will not be able to overcome, without creative tinkering, the fact that we need these workers because our unemployment rate is at acceptable levels for our economy. Yes, you can say that some have been at least temporarily displaced but not by millions.

 

[Ituyu]

Illegal aliens are NOT necessarily coming here to work. Lou Dobbs recently reported that 33 percent of our prison population is now comprised of non-citizens.

Maybe, but that number would be swelled by legal inmates. And, of course, it’s Lou Dobbs saying this…need I say more.

Plus, 36 to 42 percent of illegal aliens are on welfare. So, for a good proportion of these people, the American dream is crime and welfare, not coming here to work

 

[Ituyu]

Ituyu;1840741:

I myself, have worked hard all my life and paid taxes and raised fine children. This I have done legally since I am a citizen.

Sounds like the big difference between you and they is a little “il” that we have given no reason for putting there. So if that’s what made this country great, then they too have made it great.

---

All we ask

*** of these people is to go to the back of the line after people who have applied BEFORE THEM to come here and have had to endure a wait and to not put themselves ahead of others. Come into this country legally and there would be no problem.

---

That’s not an accurate statement Blyss. The legal option was closed to them. If they wanted an honest job here the only door open for that was the “illegal” one. Obviously you’re not at all familiar with the plan that our Bishops support. Nobody that gained legal entry before them is negatively impacted. And last, the sources that you’ve used here are Anti Immigrant sources. They don’t want even more legal immigration, they want less. That is why they don’t want a “legalization” process. Hopefully soon, those that qualify, will be allowed to change their status.

NOTHING gives them the RIGHT to usurp the rights of a nation to determine who can and who cannot come into this country. NOTHING!!..and that is the bottom line!

Yes Blyss our immigration policy did make a determination, one that has offered NO reason for that determination. We should not make laws that don’t serve a legitimate purpose. It has already been shown that we needed them. You think that we just made a mistake? Sounds like at the very least, we should change our policy to reflect that and allow them to change their status.

 

[Ituyu]

How could you figure that Mexico’s economy is not an issue?

It’s simple Blyss, the Mexican government and it’s economy is not something that WE can vote on. It’s not something we are trying to fix through our immigration policy, is it? While it is true that if Mexico’s economy could employ these people and provide a descent standard of living they wouldn’t need to come. And, if they didn’t come, how would we have filled the jobs that we needed done? How would we increase our population? We decided not to do that “legally”. Why was that?

… rife with corruption and I realize that the poor from that country want a better life for themselves and their families, but that does not give them the right to sneak into our country, break our laws, commit crimes,take advantage of our health care system, break our schools and then much of the time they send their money back to Mexico. Mexico has come to depend heavily on that money from their citizens over here. Everywhere you turn in many towns there are places for Hispanics to go to send money back home. That is why the government there does not want to do anything about securing the borders,

Fortunately Blyss, a legalization process would address the most common and correctable “crime”…“illegal” immigration. And, it would afford us the opportunity to screen and reject criminals.

and in fact, they have openly encouraged their citizens to invade this country and have produced handbooks explicitly showing them how to make it through the border

Again Blyss??? This mantra comes from Anti Immigrant groups. I’ve posted the actual handbook before and it’s NOT what Anti Immigrant groups claim it to be.

Ituyu…let’s say you have a nice home that you have worked hard for and nice amenities. You have a neighbor who has much less and since he likes what you have he breaks into your home and makes himself comfortable, watching your TV, eating your food, sleeping in your bed and to pay you back he mows your lawn. Do you let him continue to live in your home or do you ask for him to leave and better himself in his own residence?

Blyss they don’t live in my home, thus they take nothing from me. And, I would venture a guess that they don’t “live” in your house either. They may be my neighbors and I welcome them. They invite me and some of my friends to their homes frequently and the food…fabulous!! But I confess, I can’t say for sure who is legal and who isn’t, just like you can’t either. But, I do know that the “illegal” have been arbitrarily deprived of the opportunity for "legal’ status.

 

[Ituyu]

It is most unfortunate that our school system in my city has had to close programs benefiting children who have special needs to make more resources available for ESL.

Even if this were true, how in the world can you say that ESL classes were put there for the “illegal”? Most ESL classes are attended by the “legal” and yes the “illegal” attend them too but that only weakens your argument that they don’t want to assimilate. It doesn’t prove that the ESL classes or “illegals” were the cause for the closing of programs.

BTW…more and more I am seeing Mexican flags flying outside of businesses and homes. Yes, this is America and they are free to do so, but I have to wonder their allegiance, as I don’t see the Stars n Stripes flying beside them. It used to be people came to this country for the values it offered and what this country meant as a land of the free…now they come for the money and I wonder how many even know about the history of this country. It is nothinbg more but a means to an end

.

I don’t think that flying a Mexican flag should be interpretted as an allegiance to Mexico but rather to say that they are not ashamed of their Hispanic origins, their heritage. They can’t change the color of their skins or where they were born. The way many continue to bash and mix all Hispanics together, I can’t blame them. For if they wanted to be in Mexico, that would be easily achieved. When they listened to the grumbling about how many perceived the flying of the Mexican flag they quickly brought in the American flag to show us that it was not what they were saying. They were immediately attacked as liars. So it’s a lose/lose situation. If they fly either flag, they lose. But, you’ll be happy to know that I was there at the May 1 march. It was peaceful, there was much singing and hand clapping. “Si se puede” was the refrain. “It can be done” and so far, aside from much hate mongering through spin and mischaracterization by anti immigrant groups, I think they’re right. I was right there near a group flying a flag of the Star of David. The crowd was mixed with many citizens of different nationalities too. They were embracing a most cherished American right, the Freedom of Speech. It was amazing and awe inspiring!

 

[urban-hermit]

Thank you. I do try to be polite.

I have noticed that about you, both here and in other threads and I sincerely appreciate it. It is a lot easier to have a rational discussion when the brains involved are not swimming in angry adrenaline.

BTW, I just noticed we live in 2 different countries: you live in the very red red state of Texas. And I live in the palest powdery blue blue state of Seattle (the rest of Washington is actually a red state in case you care). I didn’t take note of our locations when I wrote my post, but now that I do it explains our different perceptions on this issue…

I did not say it was the basis for all anti-immigration or even most

in post # 281 you said:
I might agree with you, though, that ethnocentrism drives much of the anti-immigration movement.
So I see you are right about that. I guess I should have read more carefully because I jumped to the conclusion that I was reading more of what I hear so much in Seattle: that racism is the reason for everything (so why look for any other reasons).

I will keep to my opinion until I go a month without hearing the word “wetback.”

Again, if I didn’t live in Seattle I’d probably experience much more of that.

As further evidence that many are truly ethnocentristic and not just racist (there is a difference), I experience quite often people who complain about immigrant speaking Spanish in their presence. It is hard for me to believe that such an attitude has no bearing on these people’s opinion about immigrants, both legal and illegal.

My experience here has been different.

Even at church, I have had people come up to me and ask me a question in Spanish (i have darkish skin and often am mistaken for Latino), and when I didn’t understand (i speak Spanish but I’m not fluent) and they realize I’m anglo, they simply walked away without another word or even a look. Very rude. Likewise at work, people in the beginning would talk about me right in front of me like I wasn’t even there until they realized that I did understand at least some of what they were saying so fast in Spanish. And some of the Latinas I’ve gotten to know as work-friends have told me that we are going to have to learn Spanish because so many Latinos are coming to the US now. They were serious.

I want to be welcoming, but when people come here and act like they own the place, and some (see above pictures) have actually convinced themselves that they are entitled to the place whether they own it or not, I do not like it. Because it’s not quite right.

“Ethnocentrism” is defined in my dictionary as:

1. Belief in the superiority of one’s own ethnic group.
2. Overriding concern with race.

My expectation that Latinos that come here should make some effort to learn English and abide by American customs is not ethnocentrism. It’s not ethnocentric to find it rude to be excluded by a language barrier in your own country - something that happens frequently to my Anglo co-workers who know a lot less Spanish than I do. Ethnocentrism is the wrong word for that. It’s more along the lines of not laying down and being a doormat. StandingUpForOneselfinOnesOwnCountry-ism?

 

[pnewton]

My expectation that Latinos that come here should make some effort to learn English and abide by American customs is not ethnocentrism.

No, I don’t believe it is and I understand that this sort of bias works both ways. You are right about where I live. Many of my fellow parishoners are first generation U.S. or even new immigrants. I know that many are not here legally.

One thing these threads have done is cause me to examine some of my own opininos on immigration, both legal and otherwise and what the Christian response should be. While it may seem we are going in circles, they have been helpful for me, so it was not a waste of time. I hope they have also helped others.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

It is quite evident many posters on this thread do not study economics.

1. Immigration both legal an illegal help America which is one of the primary reasons the Federal Government does so little to secure the border.
2. If all illegal immigrates were deported tomorrow, and the border secured, there will be less American jobs not more. This is the simple facts of economics. Such a situation would result in massive deporting of jobs. Companies can not compete in product production if the product has a high labor demand and the local labor cost is high. And even in skilled labor as a medical doctor, many people are crossing border for surgeries.
3. Reducing immigration does not lower unemployment, unemployment results from many factors to include the valued price of the work, skills, and location. A simple way to understand it is few people want to be the lowest paid person, so many refuse such a job offer, thus choosing to remain unemployed and available rather than working poor. Another large factor in unemployment is location; people in rural areas often choose not to move to cities even when the city has available jobs, and vice versa. And then there are skills as many medical jobs are available but require a certain criteria, so there are people and jobs but when the skill set is off to two remain separate.
4. Closing the US border might well help Mexico, we have already deported jobs as production of TV’s, washing machines, refrigerators, auto parts, etc., etc, etc. Outside of Mexico we also deport many phone based jobs as Customer Service, Technical Support, etc. Closing the border would force companies to export more jobs to reduce labor demand, thus allowing competitive pricing. For example many retail items can be directed shipped from Mexico to assist the company in reducing prices.

Finally I ask those who believe closing the border would boost the US to look closely at Japan which has had a financial meltdown enduring for years. Japan did just what many posters here want America to do; the results were too many jobs were deported as Japanese labor cost became ridicules. Eventually the countries which accepted the jobs developed control of those jobs, thus Japan was left with less jobs and high cost of living so boom the economy when in the dumper and is still there today.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

First, I want to thank you for your reply; however I want to ask you to entertain a different thought. Many of these people are actually upset about injustice and discrimination. Many are legal American citizens maybe all are American citizens. They know the injustice and discrimination they suffer originated from others who entered the SW not the indigenous people of the SW and that is what their signs contain. For thousands of years indigenous people moved around this region whether for drought, illness, hostile people/tribes, etc. the movement has always been here. Now people from outside the region are coming in and drawing lines. They claim their new lines have great meaning, the people who hold the signs know better. They know better because an imaginary line does not cause discrimination of the indigenous people born on BOTH SIDES which is what they see in their everyday life. Whether they spend Monday on one side of the new line and Tuesday on the other side of the new line means nothing to them. Other people are trying to impose this change on the indigenous people. The indigenous people feel no need to justify SW customs to those who move in to the SW. Second they are not “Pro-Mexican” in your logic, as their ancestors have been all over the SW even before the border existed they do not feel unwelcome, or unequal to their family which happens to be born on the other side of the new line. Thus the Mexican flag is not an unwelcome or inferior flag to them.

What is incorrect? … I think that would be another thread.

But I conclude from those signs that the sentiments they express are the sentiments of some illegal aliens, whether the ones holding the signs are themselves illegal or not.

I see that they feel that past or present injustices, whether actual or perceived, justify their being here illegally now.

And I disagree.

What a bunch of ignorant people; how quickly they forget that there primary language is European and almost all of them have European blood in them.

Seeings how those protesters are claiming Mexico… I have reason to believe at some of them are illegals.

I don’t understand why they are claiming Mexico? If they love Mexico so much… go ( or stay ) there and make that country better.

Something that happened hundreds of years ago… shouldn’t matter now. I wasn’t alive back then niether were they… and they have no proof that any of my kin did anything to thier ancestors.

As far as sins… that is about what they ‘percieve’ happened… so don’t punish me as I didn’t do it.

I’m sure some ppl with with dark complexion ( as you put it ) get discriminated against… bet there’s plenty of other ppl that get discriminated against regardless of thier skin color.

Reading some of the posters accounts that they have experienced in neighborhoods that are predominatly pro-illegal… I wouldn’t want to live there.

 

[wabrams]

They know the injustice and discrimination they suffer originated from others who entered the SW not the indigenous people of the SW and that is what their signs contain. For thousands of years indigenous people moved around this region whether for drought, illness, hostile people/tribes, etc. the movement has always been here. Now people from outside the region are coming in and drawing lines. They claim their new lines have great meaning, the people who hold the signs know better. They know better because an imaginary line does not cause discrimination of the indigenous people born on BOTH SIDES which is what they see in their everyday life. Whether they spend Monday on one side of the new line and Tuesday on the other side of the new line means nothing to them. Other people are trying to impose this change on the indigenous people. The indigenous people feel no need to justify SW customs to those who move in to the SW. Second they are not “Pro-Mexican” in your logic, as their ancestors have been all over the SW even before the border existed they do not feel unwelcome, or unequal to their family which happens to be born on the other side of the new line. Thus the Mexican flag is not an unwelcome or inferior flag to them.

That is such nonsense. These aren’t nomadic tribes in Africa, these are people who disregard the laws at there convenience. Those slogans on those signs are the evidence that they are grasping for straws. These ‘indeginous’ people haven’t been seasonally migrating across the border for the last 1000 yrs to hang vinyl siding or do landscaping work; they come here for tax free income w/ free health benfits provided by your county hospital. This whole idea about indeginous peoples continueing to do what they have done for thousands of years is just a load of horse hockey.