I apologize for the questioning. It is rather frustrating to hear a Catholic tell me they have more faith in a politician than our Church Leaders. It is also useless to attempt to question someone on this issue without addressing their religious stance, when in fact the poster asked us to give a defense to our convictions on a religious point of view.WARNING
Please stay on topic.
Do not question the faith of other posters.
Do not make personal attacks.
Your cooperation is requested and required. Thanks.
Walt
Absolutely! However the USCCB has already taken a position to advocate for the “illegal” already here. The vast majority have been productive and law-abiding. They present no security threat and are an asset to this nation. We don’t have cause in pursuit of the “Common Good” to deny most a legalization procedure. Furthermore, we have no reason to target them with draconian measures that will almost guarantee more loss of life when in view of our labor needs, low birth rates and increased longevity we will continue to need more immigration.People have the right to leave their nation, especially, but not only, in time of disaster or calamity in their homeland. The Church teaches this. A nation has the right (and a grave responsibiility) to fairly regulate their borders for the sake of security of those who are already lawfully there and in order to keep immigrants from becoming charges. This is also Church teaching.
Apparently you misunderstand how the “illegal immigrant” scene works. I am not talking about people who come to this country and work hard and receive benefits that are due to them.are they really getting “free” stuff? is the retirement free? or do you mean some immigrates. I know a family of refuges from the Bosnian war. When their child broke an arm, they were recently here with no money so is that typical of what you thinking of? Is that the same as if I go there and work hard for years, pay taxes, and never ask them for these items? I do not see many immigrate making these requests. I see American teachers doing this and some smart financial people having these discussion but not “illegal” immigrates, does that matter? Are you aware children born in the U.S. are U.S. Citizen whether they speak English or not.
I disagree. We have people entering this country legally all the time. People from every nation of the world choose to make America their home. When you fail to move through appropriate channels, when you just decide you are going to cross the border then are going to forge or steal social security numbers so you can work, we have cause to deny legalization proceedings. In fact, we have the OBLIGATION to deny legalization proceedings.Absolutely! However the USCCB has already taken a position to advocate for the “illegal” already here. The vast majority have been productive and law-abiding. They present no security threat and are an asset to this nation. We don’t have cause in pursuit of the “Common Good” to deny most a legalization procedure. Furthermore, we have no reason to target them with draconian measures that will almost guarantee more loss of life when in view of our labor needs, low birth rates and increased longevity we will continue to need more immigration.
So if you and I make up a social security number our employer stops with holding from our checks? Are you sure that worksApparently you misunderstand how the “illegal immigrant” scene works. I am not talking about people who come to this country and work hard and receive benefits that are due to them.
I am talking about illegals who are working and being paid under the table or through the use of false documents. These people are either not having taxes withheld or are just plain not filing income tax returns since **their social security numbers are:
A) Stolen
B) Made up **(a common trick I used to catch was people using phone numbers to fill in the ssn block of job applications)
I am aware that children born here are citizens, and I am also aware that if those children have parents here illegally, this country reserves the right to deport all of them, the legal children may return when they become of age, but we cannot just let everyone stay because they had children on US Soil.
The reference I posted was authored by Congressman Charlie Norwood, 9th District, Georgia.Thank you Mr. Fremont
These articles have the same authors. One article is Posted April 8, 2005 but contains the project conclusions - the project did not end until April 30, 2005 the final report was scheduled for issue May 2, 2005. Mr. Fremont can you explain the how an April 8th post contained the finding which had not yet been made? Let me be very clear the report you sight says
excerpt 1) " Fort Huachuca: The U.S. Army maintains its own security and patrols over the base area, frequently used by illegal immigrants. ROTC Cadets from Arizona State University on training duty at the base apprehended and detained 16 illegal immigrants earlier this week; 513 illegals were apprehended on base in March. "
excerpt 2) “Prior to the Minuteman Project observation posts becoming active on April 4,…”
excerpt 3) “Leaders of the Minutemen Project say they currently have around 450 volunteers in the field. They have been in the field since Monday, April 4,”
excerpt 4)" While that hasn’t slowed the Minutemen down in bringing their 30-day project to reality"
excerpt 5)"* But both stories have the same ending: illegal activity in this, the heaviest illegal immigration border sector in America, has been brought to a screeching halt*. "
excerpt 6) *“An on-going miracle is occurring this month in America’s Southwest” *
Mr. Fremont the report says 513 people were apprehended in March, the investigation they were to conduct did not start until April 4 by on April 8th the 30 day conclusion was not just reached but published! Mr. Fremont I make no apology, and flatly condemn actions of this type.
I disagree. We have people entering this country legally all the time. People from every nation of the world choose to make America their home. When you fail to move through appropriate channels, when you just decide you are going to cross the border then are going to forge or steal social security numbers so you can work, we have cause to deny legalization proceedings. In fact, we have the OBLIGATION to deny legalization proceedings.
Don’t we have a GREATER obligation?
ecclesiainamerica.org/EIA/Documents/EcclesiaInAmericaFullDocument.pdf
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/messages/migration/documents/hf_jp-ii_mes_20031223_world-migration-day-2004_en.html
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_01051991_centesimus-annus_en.html
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_14091981_laborem-exercens_en.html
home.earthlink.net/~viessman/Math25.html
Catechism of the Catholic Church, Love for the Poor 2443-2449
scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a7.htm
Actually your link in post #57 is functioning. If you study the report which states “their initial findings” this can not be a personal pronoun for Mr. Norwood. Let me list the quote for you: “Their final and full report will be filed May 2, but their initial findings need to be known immediately”.(2) As has been repeatedly asked how such findings could be the work of men of character, and moral standing. For those who have not read the report the project was a 30 day assessment with a start date of April 1, but the report states the project was not in place until April 4th yet this report is typed and delivered by April 8th.The reference I posted was authored by Congressman Charlie Norwood, 9th District, Georgia.
It contains none of the wild claims you made about weapons, racism or mental problems. It does not mention any of the other charges you make against the Minuteman organization.
To the best of my knowledge Congressman Norwood did not author any of the articles you mention.
I repeat – no meaningful dialog is possible until you calm down and cease making false claims and accusations that the honorable and respected members of our legislature hate all immigrants and false claims about the contents of the references I have posted.
I have no intention to continue until you grow up and take a mature attitude and withdraw your false claims.
Promote your views and positions as you see fit but the use of such false claims and accusations does not help this forum go forward.
Don’t we have a GREATER obligation?
ecclesiainamerica.org/EIA/Documents/EcclesiaInAmericaFullDocument.pdf
Ituyu;1618393:
I agree, BUT I am not allocating a thing! I am simply advocating, there’s a difference. So are you saying that the USCCB is wrong in its advocacy and wrong on the basis of Church teachings?Yes, WE as Catholics have an obligation. However, that does not give us, or any other minority group the right to allocate the tax dollars of the majority to take a moral stance. We are not Robin Hood.
TimOliv;1618825:
Yes, I feel that the USCCB is wrong in its advocacy.I agree, BUT I am not allocating a thing! I am simply advocating, there’s a difference. So are you saying that the USCCB is wrong in its advocacy and wrong on the basis of Church teachings?
While these are things that Catholics should have strong feelings for, we, as Americans, should not be forcing (or attempting to force) charity using other people’s money.
This isn’t about rights, this is about justice. We’re giving away tax money in the form of grants (not loans) for illegal immigrants or the children of illegal immigrants to go to college, we are pouring our welfare as though it is from an endless supply, now it is the fault of the schools that the children are failing (because they are being taught in English instead of Spanish), and you are telling me this amounts to a moral obligation for me to keep on going, no, do even more?
The church also teaches justice, and when we tell a child who was born in America to American born parents that they cannot receive a grant for school, only a loan, because the child in the same economic situation as he sitting beside him had parents who entered the country illegally, that is not justice.
When an immigrant can receive Social Security benefits for time he was in the country illegally, time in which he was not paying into the system, mind you, that is not fair to the people who were working, paying their taxes and paying into Social Security and OBEYING THE LAW.
Then when you tell me that people can come into this country, a country which they know has an official language, and now they can sue our schools because we are not reprinting all course materials in Spanish and providing bi-lingual teachers?
And with all of these injustices, you think that you are going to convince me because of a USCCB Advocacy initiative?
Sorry, I’m not sold. As this is the same USCCB that has told people that the orans posture is not only permissable, but REQUIRED, despite the contrary being declared by Rome.
I am not answerable to the USCCB, I am answerable to God, and of the church that Christ founded, I am bound by the Magisterium and the Holy Father.
The USCCB can say what they want, that does not make it official church teaching, and they can violate the rubrics all they want, as individuals they will be held accountable at the time of their judgement, but individuals aside, the church will endure.
…its America that I think is going to implode as we try to weaken our government more and more every day.
Ituyu;1618862:
Amen. You are so right.Yes, I feel that the USCCB is wrong in its advocacy.
While these are things that Catholics should have strong feelings for, we, as Americans, should not be forcing (or attempting to force) charity using other people’s money.
This isn’t about rights, this is about justice. We’re giving away tax money in the form of grants (not loans) for illegal immigrants or the children of illegal immigrants to go to college, we are pouring our welfare as though it is from an endless supply, now it is the fault of the schools that the children are failing (because they are being taught in English instead of Spanish), and you are telling me this amounts to a moral obligation for me to keep on going, no, do even more?
The church also teaches justice, and when we tell a child who was born in America to American born parents that they cannot receive a grant for school, only a loan, because the child in the same economic situation as he sitting beside him had parents who entered the country illegally, that is not justice.
When an immigrant can receive Social Security benefits for time he was in the country illegally, time in which he was not paying into the system, mind you, that is not fair to the people who were working, paying their taxes and paying into Social Security and OBEYING THE LAW.
Then when you tell me that people can come into this country, a country which they know has an official language, and now they can sue our schools because we are not reprinting all course materials in Spanish and providing bi-lingual teachers?
And with all of these injustices, you think that you are going to convince me because of a USCCB Advocacy initiative?
Sorry, I’m not sold. As this is the same USCCB that has told people that the orans posture is not only permissable, but REQUIRED, despite the contrary being declared by Rome.
I am not answerable to the USCCB, I am answerable to God, and of the church that Christ founded, I am bound by the Magisterium and the Holy Father.
The USCCB can say what they want, that does not make it official church teaching, and they can violate the rubrics all they want, as individuals they will be held accountable at the time of their judgement, but individuals aside, the church will endure.
…its America that I think is going to implode as we try to weaken our government more and more every day.
You have made several significant and meaningful posts here and I applaud you for your wisdom and efforts. I not only fully support your positions, I admire them.
You keep your cool and you keep focus on the point. Unlike others, you do not vent emotional outbursts.
Congratulations and keep up the good work.
God Bless.
Hi TimYes, I feel that the USCCB is wrong in its advocacy.
While these are things that Catholics should have strong feelings for, we, as Americans, should not be **forcing (or attempting to force) charity using other people’s money. **
This isn’t about rights, this is about justice. We’re giving away tax money in the form of grants (not loans) for illegal immigrants or the children of illegal immigrants to go to college, we are pouring our welfare as though it is from an endless supply, now it is the fault of the schools that the children are failing (because they are being taught in English instead of Spanish), and you are telling me this amounts to a moral obligation for me to keep on going, no, do even more?
The church also teaches justice, and when we tell a child who was born in America to American born parents that they cannot receive a grant for school, only a loan, because the child in the same economic situation as he sitting beside him had parents who entered the country illegally, that is not justice.
When an immigrant can receive Social Security benefits for time he was in the country illegally, time in which he was not paying into the system, mind you, that is not fair to the people who were working, paying their taxes and paying into Social Security and OBEYING THE LAW.
Then when you tell me that people can come into this country, a country which they know has an official language, and now they can sue our schools because we are not reprinting all course materials in Spanish and providing bi-lingual teachers?
And with all of these injustices, you think that you are going to convince me because of a USCCB Advocacy initiative?
Sorry, I’m not sold. As this is the same USCCB that has told people that the orans posture is not only permissable, but REQUIRED, despite the contrary being declared by Rome.
I am not answerable to the USCCB, I am answerable to God, and of the church that Christ founded, I am bound by the Magisterium and the Holy Father.
The USCCB can say what they want, that does not make it official church teaching, and they can violate the rubrics all they want, as individuals they will be held accountable at the time of their judgement, but individuals aside, the church will endure.
…its America that I think is going to implode as we try to weaken our government more and more every day.
TimOliv;1622270:
Now that is funnyAmen. You are so right.
You have made several significant and meaningful posts here and I applaud you for your wisdom and efforts. I not only fully support your positions, I admire them.
You keep your cool and you keep focus on the point. Unlike others, you do not vent emotional outbursts.
Congratulations and keep up the good work.
God Bless.
Fremont;1622832:
Now that is funny
Mr. Roofer (?),Hi Tim
Tim, we continue to have a problem in which various people come into the thread and make comments as the ones highlighted above. They are then asked about documentation. The documentation usually is never produced, on occasions when some documentation is produced, others as myself begin to break it down to look at the validity of such. However this is usually met with personal attacks, name calling, and emotional out burst. (The currently most common emotional outburst is to call the others poster emotional, I find this rather funny). Tim if you could document these claims that would be most helpful- thanks
None of these articles offer any clue as to why this advocacy would be found to be “wrong” by our Pope on the basis of Church teachings on the matters of Immigrants, Labor, the Poor, Charity or any of the published Encyclicals on these topics.Ituyu;1618862 said:Yes, I feel that the USCCB is wrong in its advocacy.
The Church has an obligation to inform and to teach. None of this “attempts to force or forces” anything on anyone.While these are things that Catholics should have strong feelings for, we, as Americans, should not be forcing (or attempting to force) charity using other people’s money.
This is about both Human Rights and Justice for which references have been previously been given but I’ll gladly repost them for you if you would like.This isn’t about rights, this is about justice.
Well I would agree that this is an issue of Justice as your first citation suggests. Sheila Jackson Lee, D-Houston, stipulates that punishing the “illegal” student would not be fair just because they were brought here “illegally” by their parents as children.We’re giving away tax money in the form of grants (not loans) for illegal immigrants or the children of illegal immigrants to go to college, we are pouring our welfare as though it is from an endless supply, now it is the fault of the schools that the children are failing (because they are being taught in English instead of Spanish), and you are telling me this amounts to a moral obligation for me to keep on going, no, do even more?
Your first citation also speaks to this issue. It indicates that over 80,000 freshmen were denied state grants because there was not enough money and that it is not possible to tell how many “Illegal” students benefited.The church also teaches justice, and when we tell a child who was born in America to American born parents that they cannot receive a grant for school, only a loan, because the child in the same economic situation as he sitting beside him had parents who entered the country illegally, that is not justice
It goes on to say that there are approximately 4,000 “illegals” enrolled in higher education schools and that most are in community colleges. If one bothers to do the math, it becomes apparent that the increased enrollment has actually increased revenues by millions of dollars by allowing these students to enroll as state residents.
It is also clear that these students have no impact on tens of thousands of students who were denied state grants. Though, it is true that at least some grants went to “illegals”, it is also true that the schools determined via whatever set criteria that the funds went to the most deserving.
None of your citations supports the idea that “illegals” are suing. It’s the school districts that are suing under the “No Child Left Behind” law.
But your claims are not uncommon:
“As for complaints that many critics of immigration cite - demand for social and government services by immigrants - most economists believe that is outweighed by the increased economic activity, even if some specific school districts or public hospitals struggle with the costs associated serving the immigrant community”
money.cnn.com/2006/05/01/news/economy/immigration_economy/index.htm?cnn=yes
You didn’t provide support for this claim but here is a reference for you:When an immigrant can receive Social Security benefits for time he was in the country illegally, time in which he was not paying into the system, mind you, that is not fair to the people who were working, paying their taxes and paying into Social Security and OBEYING THE LAW.
I wasn’t aware that English as the Official Language had been approved yet but I don’t think it will create more “English” speakers.As far as schools that enrolled “Illegal” students, they point out that they are OBEYING THE LAW.
Then when you tell me that people can come into this country, a country which they know has an official language, and now they can sue our schools because we are not reprinting all course materials in Spanish and providing bi-lingual teachers?
You’ve not made your case for “injustices”. SORRY! Now for the issues regarding the USCCB.And with all of these injustices, you think that you are going to convince me because of a USCCB Advocacy initiative?