Illegal immigrant rights

  • Thread starter Thread starter Fremont
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Texas_Roofer said:
Are you sure some one said he church supports such activities?

So now you are implying stealing, beating, murdering, kidnapping or any other such activity is not illegal provided it is done to a person you believes is illegally in this country? See your statement implies no law of any kind applies; however you are clear no one can prevent their return, how do you balance that? If a vigilante is beating a person and the person says “I want to go home” does the vigilante have to stop the beating? Did you consider your claim that even being processed through the legal system is out side of rights (you personally) granted?
Click to expand...
Where is Walt Oliver when we need him? Mr. Oliver posted a stern warning about not posting false claims about what others have said. It seems you have chosen to ignore him.

I never mentioned anything about beating, murdering or kidnapping. Your assertions that I did are completely false.

I never said any evil activity is not illegal if committed by an illegal immigrant. Your assertions that I did are completely false.

I never said anything about a vigilante beating anyone. Your assertions that I did are completely false.

I did say that I believe the Church does not condone or encourage lying, cheating and stealing.

An illegal immigrant applying for a job who presents false credentials and signs the I-9 employment form attesting they have a right to work in the US is lying and cheating. An illegal immigrant working as a day laborer, fee for personal services or other form of independent contractor and refuses to pay self-employment taxes is stealing.

I see these as illegal activities and I do not believe the Church condones or encourages such behavior.

In the post you referenced I said that nothing listed by that poster changes my beliefs.
 
Ituyu said:
I can’t help it if you choose not to accept Church teaching. The fact is EVERY THING in my post indicates that considering people as “Illegal” is unthinkable via Church Teaching. We are ALL children of GOD with inalienable and inviolable rights. Moving from one country to find work does not cause them to surrender those rights.
Click to expand...
I stand by my statements. I reject what seems to be your interpretation of the items you posted.

Yes everyone has the right to work but that right has to be exercised within the rules and regulations governing work.

The US has numerous and various requirements that a person must have official permission to work. No matter how skilled or capable the worker might be they still need official permission to work.

If someone wants to work as a pharmacist and dispense controlled substances they need official permission to do so. If someone wants to work as a physician and perform major surgery and prescribe controlled substances they need official permission to do so. If someone wants to work as an attorney and represent others in a court of law and other legal matters they need official permission to do so. If someone wants to work for many government contractors they need official permission to do so. If a non-citizen wants to work in the US they need official permission to do so. The list can go on and on.

I do not believe the Church teaches that such rules and regulations are in conflict with Church teaching. Nothing in your post changes that view.

It seems you choose to interpret the statements in your post to fit your agenda. That does make your interpretation right and that does not make it the only interpretation.
 
40.png
Fremont:
(Reference Post # 97 )

No illegal immigrant has any “inviolable rights” except to return to their place of origin and proceed with the normal and legal immigration process…
Click to expand...
In reference to post # 97 you were asked some questions, as it appears you misunderstood such I will ask again.

So now you are implying stealing, beating, murdering, kidnapping or any other such activity is not illegal provided it is done to a person you believes is illegally in this country? See your statement implies no law of any kind applies; however you are clear no one can prevent their return, how do you balance that? If a vigilante is beating a person and the person says “I want to go home” does the vigilante have to stop the beating? Did you consider your claim that even being processed through the legal system is out side of rights (you personally) granted?
 
Fremont said:
I stand by my statements. I reject what seems to be your interpretation of the items you posted.

Do you not understand that you keep contradicting yourself and putting meaning into what I’ve posted that is not even implied?
Yes everyone has the right to work but that right has to be exercised within the rules and regulations governing work.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Texas_Roofer said:
In reference to post # 97 you were asked some questions, as it appears you misunderstood such I will ask again.

So now you are implying stealing, beating, murdering, kidnapping or any other such activity is not illegal provided it is done to a person you believes is illegally in this country? See your statement implies no law of any kind applies; however you are clear no one can prevent their return, how do you balance that? If a vigilante is beating a person and the person says “I want to go home” does the vigilante have to stop the beating? Did you consider your claim that even being processed through the legal system is out side of rights (you personally) granted?
Click to expand...
I covered those issues in post # 101.
 
Ituyu said:
Do you not understand that you keep contradicting yourself and putting meaning into what I’ve posted that is not even implied?

Where do my posts from Pope John XXIII say that a person must be given a job for which he does not qualify in terms of skills? What he is saying is that we cannot make laws that deny him the the God given right and obligations of Natural Law to better his condition in life. So that person may never be a brain surgeon, that’s not the same thing. The laws that allow us to deport or would “encourage” them to leave (through some sort of harm) are contrary to our Catholic beliefs. There already exists the natural laws of Supply and Demand. Those laws have ALWAYS worked! We don’t need a set of draconian laws that seem to set a course for 'mediocrity". One of the underlying principles of our success as a country has been ‘competition’. We seem to be undermining that very important prinicple.

Yes, but laws that set legitimate “skill” or “knowledge” requirements are not a problem because they serve the “Common Good”. Laws that violate HUMAN RIGHTS ARE CONTARY to Church Teaching and do not serve the “Common Good”:

"Any human society, if it is to be well-ordered and productive, must lay down as a foundation this principle, namely, that every human being is a person, that is, his nature is endowed with intelligence and free will.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Ituyu said:
In Church teaching, it is unthinkable that a person be “illegal”. We are all EQUAL and we all have the same “Inviolable rights”. Coming to this country DOES NOT cause them to surrender those rights.
Click to expand...
Whether or not the US has adjusted immigration quotas up or down based on labor needs or for any other reasons does not justify or give any right to any foreign national to enter the US illegally.
 
Fremont said:
Whether or not the US has adjusted immigration quotas up or down based on labor needs or for any other reasons does not justify or give any right to any foreign national to enter the US illegally.
Click to expand...
Then does the Church lie? It says that EVERY Person is endowed with inalienable and inviolable rights. Is that a lie in your view Fremont? It says that they have the right to seek the opportunity to work without coersion. Is that a lie too Fremont? It says that not only do they have the right to better their situation and that of their children but they have an OBLIGATION to do so. Another lie Fremont?

What have you offered as proof that the Church is wrong Fremont?
 
That does not mean they can break our Federal laws by comming over here illegally.

Seems to me you are twisting the words into lies… Fremont is telling the truth.

All thier OBLIGATIONS are to change THIER country. Not ours.
Ituyu said:
Then does the Church lie? It says that EVERY Person is endowed with inalienable and inviolable rights. Is that a lie in your view Fremont? It says that they have the right to seek the opportunity to work without coersion. Is that a lie too Fremont? It says that not only do they have the right to better their situation and that of their children but they have an OBLIGATION to do so. Another lie Fremont?

What have you offered as proof that the Church is wrong Fremont?
Click to expand...
 
Jeffrey said:
That does not mean they can break our Federal laws by comming over here illegally.

Seems to me you are twisting the words into lies… Fremont is telling the truth.

All thier OBLIGATIONS are to change THIER country. Not ours.
Click to expand...
Jeffrey
Mr Fremont made post #97 and said
Originally Posted by Fremont
(Reference Post # 97 )
Click to expand...
No illegal immigrant has any “inviolable rights” except to return to their place of origin and proceed with the normal and legal immigration process…
Click to expand...
Are you sure this does not contridict the Catholic Church teachings??
 
Jeffrey said:
That does not mean they can break our Federal laws by comming over here illegally.

Seems to me you are twisting the words into lies… Fremont is telling the truth.

All thier OBLIGATIONS are to change THIER country. Not ours.
Click to expand...
Ah geez! Okay, another one for you Jeff:

"Therefore a human being also has the right to security in cases of sickness, inability to work, widowhood, old age, unemployment, or in any other case in which he is deprived of the means of subsistence through no fault of his own.[8]

“.[7] And as these rights and obligations are universal and inviolable so they cannot in any way be surrendered.

It’s there Obligation to survive. Face it you haven’t provided a Catholic argument against Natural Law and the Inviolable rights of Man. Saying that you don’t agree, with no reason why (We’re talking about the Laws of God), does not support your position. It just proves my point.

Usually, those with your views will resort to a defense about Man Made law, the law and/or costs, the costs without regard to how the law (Justice/ Harm) applies or a cost/benefits evaluation. Looking at only one side of an equation will not allow for a valid look at a problem. It will only yield conclusions based upon a distorted picture. Resorting to biased and/or unverifiable sources also points to a lack of objectivity in your side’s approach. Accept that the majority of Americans rejects your approach. The results of the recent elections will only move the country in the direction of s.2611.
 
Ituyu said:
Then does the Church lie? It says that EVERY Person is endowed with inalienable and inviolable rights. Is that a lie in your view Fremont? It says that they have the right to seek the opportunity to work without coersion. Is that a lie too Fremont? It says that not only do they have the right to better their situation and that of their children but they have an OBLIGATION to do so. Another lie Fremont?

What have you offered as proof that the Church is wrong Fremont?
Click to expand...
Your insinuations are ridiculous.

I will repeat my statement -

Whether or not the US has adjusted immigration quotas up or down based on labor needs or for any other reasons does not justify or give any right to any foreign national to enter the US illegally.

And again, adjustments or non-adjustments of our immigration quotas do not confer any right to any foreign national to enter the US illegally.

I do not believe the Church has never stated our immigration quotas are unfair or in any sort of conflict with Church teaching. Nor do I believe the Church has ever stated that any or all foreign nationals have the right to violate our immigration laws just because the quota system has not been adjusted to your personal satisfaction.

This has nothing to do with accusing the Church of lying.
 
Ugh!!! It sickens me to see how people actually take it against the poor immigrants who are in need of a better life. Agh!!! I am sick and tired of these so-called racist, chauvinistic, and xenophobic people making dim-witted remarks about how immigrants have come to this country to steal jobs and welfare, cause trouble and how they are criminals for trying to feed their families either here or at home!

Don’t these people remember that the ONLY naturals of this country are the Native Americans??? We all migrated to this country too!! We all did!! This country has far less history than any other country in this world. What, so coming here in the 1700’s makes us the “legal” citizens of this land? No way! First… if it weren’t because of the Natives, most of the immigrants wouldn’t have survived back then. Second… w/o all of us, legal or not, this country would lose more than it would gain.

Isn’t this country supposed to love God and value Him? Well, God never said to be cruel and be prejudiced against your neighbor. Absolutely cold-blooded!!

I wish people in the US would remember that EVERYONE in this place has migrated from another country!!!

I found this article online which I thought was a great argument pro-immigrant. Please, if you have read this far, read this too, maybe you’ll gain some insight on the issue and might change your mind if you are one of those people who have it against immigrants. I’m pretty sure your great great great grandparents came here from somewhere to find a better future.

yourimmigrationcenter.com/news_salem.html
 
Fremont said:
I do not believe the Church has never stated our immigration quotas are unfair or in any sort of conflict with Church teaching. Nor do I believe the Church has ever stated that any or all foreign nationals have the right to violate our immigration laws just because the quota system has not been adjusted to your personal satisfaction.

This has nothing to do with accusing the Church of lying.
Click to expand...
Sorry Fremont, you’ve been allowed plenty of leeway but you really do need to address the issue. Is what was quoted about unsurrenderable, inviolable rights TRUE OR NOT?

**If **they are not true, why not?

If they are true, then our immigration laws violate those rights.
 
Texas_Roofer said:
Jeffrey
Mr Fremont made post #97 and said

Are you sure this does not contridict the Catholic Church teachings??
Click to expand...
Since you seem to be so hung up on my statement lets get one thing straight.

This forum is supposed to be about immigration, not human rights. If you or anyone else wants to have dialog about human rights go to the proper forum.

The Church has consistently held that rights, even rights we consider most basic such as the right to life and the right to liberty, are subject to forfeit by deeds by the individual.

Any so called inviolable rights do not include the right to violate US immigration laws – or any other US laws the Church has not specifically ruled as unjust.

The Church holds that all law comes from God and laws are to be respected unless and until determined to be unjust by appropriate ecclesiastical authority.

That does not include any individual’s erroneous, distorted and self-serving interpretation of Church principles so as to promote their personal agenda.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top