Illegal immigrant rights

[Fremont]

Sorry Fremont, you’ve been allowed plenty of leeway but you really do need to address the issue. Is what was quoted about unsurrenderable, inviolable rights TRUE OR NOT?

**If **they are not true, why not?

If they are true, then our immigration laws violate those rights.

Let’s get one thing straight.

This forum is supposed to be about immigration, not human rights. If you or anyone else wants to have dialog about human rights go to the proper forum.

The Church has consistently held that rights, even rights we consider most basic such as the right to life and the right to liberty, are subject to forfeit by deeds by the individual.

Our immigration laws do not violate the rights of anyone. The Church has never ruled that they do.

Any so called inviolable rights do not include the right to violate US immigration laws – or any other US laws the Church has not specifically ruled as unjust.

The Church holds that all law comes from God and laws are to be respected unless and until determined to be unjust by appropriate ecclesiastical authority.

That does not include any individual’s erroneous, distorted and self-serving interpretation of Church principles so as to promote their personal agenda.

 

[Ituyu]

Let’s get one thing straight.

This forum is supposed to be about immigration, not human rights. If you or anyone else wants to have dialog about human rights go to the proper forum.

The Church has consistently held that rights, even rights we consider most basic such as the right to life and the right to liberty, are subject to forfeit by deeds by the individual.

Our immigration laws do not violate the rights of anyone. The Church has never ruled that they do.

Any so called inviolable rights do not include the right to violate US immigration laws – or any other US laws the Church has not specifically ruled as unjust.

The Church holds that all law comes from God and laws are to be respected unless and until determined to be unjust by appropriate ecclesiastical authority.

That does not include any individual’s erroneous, distorted and self-serving interpretation of Church principles so as to promote their personal agenda.

Sorry Fremont but this thread is based upon your parameters:

"“There have been several postings in this forum claiming the Church teaches illegal immigrants have rights such as the right to immigrate and the right to a job.

I suggest it is time to expose the truth. Those who make such claims can post those teachings here so the wording of those supposed teachings could be seen by all of us.”

It’s contradictory and self-serving of you to say otherwise. Your challenge has been met. You’ve lost!!

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Post #97

… No illegal immigrant has any “inviolable rights”… …

…
Post #120

… The Church has consistently held that rights, even rights we consider most basic such as the right to life and the right to liberty, are subject to forfeit … …

 

[Texas_Roofer]

…
The Church holds that all law comes from God and laws are to be respected unless and until determined to be unjust by appropriate ecclesiastical authority.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Post #36

…
Local bishops? You have to be kidding.

They emphasize why I am so very grateful that we have the rule of law in the US and not the rule of men, laws that apply equally to everyone.

These are the guys that **aid child-abusing priests **and then use donations from the faithful to bribe the victims and their families to not tell the police. They then **lied repeatedly **to the police and the community about what they had done.

They have repeatedly shown a distain and lack of respect of our laws…

Post #42

… I believe we are now in a period of too many bad bishops. …

Post #45

… As I said you are free to blindly follow your bishops if that makes you feel good and picture yourself as pious. In my opinion there are too many dishonest bishops for me to put much credence in anything they say on any topic.

It is heartening to me to see Pope Benedict starting to punish some of the ]dishonest

and **sexually abusing bishops **that JP II protected./B]…

 

[Jeffrey]

So why don’t they try to fix whatever country they’re from instead of breaking our laws to get here? They have no respect for our country or our laws.

Seem to remember that we are supposed to obey the law. The immigration laws are just IMO. So unless they come over legally they have no rights IMO.

Ah geez! Okay, another one for you Jeff:

"Therefore a human being also has the right to security in cases of sickness, inability to work, widowhood, old age, unemployment, or in any other case in which he is deprived of the means of subsistence through no fault of his own.[8]

“.[7] And as these rights and obligations are universal and inviolable so they cannot in any way be surrendered.

It’s there Obligation to survive. Face it you haven’t provided a Catholic argument against Natural Law and the Inviolable rights of Man. Saying that you don’t agree, with no reason why (We’re talking about the Laws of God), does not support your position. It just proves my point.

Usually, those with your views will resort to a defense about Man Made law, the law and/or costs, the costs without regard to how the law (Justice/ Harm) applies or a cost/benefits evaluation. Looking at only one side of an equation will not allow for a valid look at a problem. It will only yield conclusions based upon a distorted picture. Resorting to biased and/or unverifiable sources also points to a lack of objectivity in your side’s approach. Accept that the majority of Americans rejects your approach. The results of the recent elections will only move the country in the direction of s.2611.

 

[Ituyu]

So why don’t they try to fix whatever country they’re from instead of breaking our laws to get here?

For one, they don’t have the power to change their country overnight. Second, even if their leadership were willing and had that capacity today, it wouldn’t help these people today or in the near future. Third, we need them here. Fourth, there is no legitimate reason to ask or encourage the vast majority of those already here to leave. Lastly, it is our system that needs reform to realistically conform to our market needs as well promote the growth we will continue to need in the future. Our current laws fail miserably and most Americans agree that these people deserve a chance to become Americans.

They have no respect for our country or our laws.

Absolutely! But our laws are supposed to be fair and Just and most people can see that they’re not. We have an obligation to fight the injustice in our laws not only because we are Catholic but because we are Americans.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Thank you Jeffery
This post seems genuine so I will give you some ideas I have on the questions asked.

So why don’t they try to fix whatever country they’re from instead of breaking our laws to get here? They have no respect for our country or our laws.

Seem to remember that we are supposed to obey the law. The immigration laws are just IMO. So unless they come over legally they have no rights IMO.

In my opinion The best opportunity for these people to fix their country is to do it from the US, which is part of the reason they get here by the best method available to them. The fact simply is the best method they can achieve is illegal. The biggest problem I have with the US Immigration Laws is I truly believe they are wink and nod laws, which mean the Politicians, wish to have stringent laws but plan to never enforce these laws. Similarly immigrates appear to follow practically ever law outside of the wink and nod immigration laws. In fact my opinion is immigrates and the politicians are the best experts at understand how are immigration laws are intended to work.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Post 120 & 121

…This forum is supposed to be about …

Actually

Post #97

…
No illegal immigrant has any “inviolable rights” …

Once the Freudian slip(?) #97 was posted you had just as well chiseled granite

 

[Fremont]

I will withdraw from this foolishness just for today in honor of our veterans.

They all deserve our appreciation and respect. A big thank you from me to all veterans as well as the wonderful men and women now serving our country in the military. God bless America.

I will pass along a comment I received form a friend that served with pride and honor in the US Navy.​

New Immigration Plan

Bring our troops home from Iraq to guard the border. When they catch an illegal immigrant crossing the border, hand him a canteen, rifle and some ammo and ship him to Iraq.

Tell him if he wants to come to America, then he must serve a tour in the military. Give him a soldier’s pay while he’s there and tax him on it.

After his tour, he will be allowed to become a citizen since he defended this country. He will also be registered to be taxed and be a legal patriot.

This option will probably deter illegal immigration and provide a solution for the troops in Iraq, and the aliens trying to make a better life for themselves.

If they refuse to serve, ship them to Iraq anyway, without the canteen, rifle or ammo.

Problem solved.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

…
I never mentioned anything about beating, murdering or kidnapping. Your assertions that I did are completely false…

…If they refuse to serve, ship them to Iraq anyway, without the canteen, rifle or ammo.…

 

[Texas_Roofer]

It is Veterans’ day :clapping: :clapping:

*We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men *are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.–Thomas Jefferson this guy wrote it]

[These guy’s signed it]
Button Gwinnett, Lyman Hall, George Walton, William Hooper, Joseph Hewes John Penn , Edward Rutledge, Thomas Heyward, Jr. Thomas Lynch, Jr. Arthur Middleton, John Hancock, Samuel Chase, William Paca, Thomas Stone, ,Charles Carroll of Carrollton, George Wythe, Richard Henry Lee, Benjamin Harrison, Thomas Nelson, Jr., Francis Lightfoot Lee, Carter Braxton, Robert Morris, Benjamin Rush, Benjamin Franklin, John Morton, George Clymer, James Smith, George Taylor, James Wilson, George Ross, Caesar Rodney, George Read, Thomas McKean, William Floyd, Philip Livingston, Francis Lewis, Lewis Morris, Richard Stockton, John Witherspoon, Francis Hopkinson, John Hart, Abraham Clark, Josiah Bartlett, William Whipple, Samuel Adams, John Adams, Robert Treat Paine, Elbridge Gerry, Stephen Hopkins, William Ellery, Roger Sherman, Samuel Huntington, William Williams, Oliver Wolcot, Matthew Thornton
– archives.gov/national-archives-experience/charters/declaration_transcript.html

:clapping: :clapping:

 

[Jeffrey]

:clapping:

I will withdraw from this foolishness just for today in honor of our veterans.

They all deserve our appreciation and respect. A big thank you from me to all veterans as well as the wonderful men and women now serving our country in the military. God bless America.

I will pass along a comment I received form a friend that served with pride and honor in the US Navy.​

New Immigration Plan

Bring our troops home from Iraq to guard the border. When they catch an illegal immigrant crossing the border, hand him a canteen, rifle and some ammo and ship him to Iraq.

Tell him if he wants to come to America, then he must serve a tour in the military. Give him a soldier’s pay while he’s there and tax him on it.

After his tour, he will be allowed to become a citizen since he defended this country. He will also be registered to be taxed and be a legal patriot.

This option will probably deter illegal immigration and provide a solution for the troops in Iraq, and the aliens trying to make a better life for themselves.

If they refuse to serve, ship them to Iraq anyway, without the canteen, rifle or ammo.

Problem solved.

 

[Ituyu]

:clapping:

Explain to me how there can be “pride” and “honor” in promoting violence against innocent, unarmed, and untrained civilians.

 

[Fremont]

Sorry Fremont but this thread is based upon your parameters:

"“There have been several postings in this forum claiming the Church teaches illegal immigrants have rights such as the right to immigrate and the right to a job.

I suggest it is time to expose the truth. Those who make such claims can post those teachings here so the wording of those supposed teachings could be seen by all of us.”

It’s contradictory and self-serving of you to say otherwise. Your challenge has been met. You’ve lost!!

It has been established that Rome has not interpreted the broad range of Church teachings to declared any current US immigration laws, rules or regulations as unjust, unfair or in any way contrary to Church teaching.

Thus those US immigration laws, rules and regulations are to be respected by all foreign nationals as well as citizens and legal residents of the US. Also it is just for the US to enforce those laws, rules and regulations as it sees fit.

It has been established that Rome has not interpreted the broad range of Church teachings to declared any current US labor laws, rules or regulations as unjust, unfair or in any way contrary to Church teaching.

Thus those US labor laws, rules and regulations are to be respected by all residents of the US.

Noting posted in this forum changes these facts.

There has been no indication that Rome has authorized any individual in the US to use a narrow view of Church teachings to determine which Church teachings should be applied to illegal immigration or which Church teachings should be ignored in that regard.

There has been no indication that Rome has authorized any individual in the US to develop their personal interpretation any Church teachings or to determine how such personal interpretations should be applied to illegal immigration into the US.

The world community has to continually endure religious zealots of all persuasions – Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, etc. – who distort and corrupt the teachings of the religious beliefs they claim to subscribe to. These zealots try to use such distortions and corruptions as a weapon to further their personal agenda. We even see such antics here in this forum. Sad but true.

 

[Fremont]

Originally Posted by Fremont
…
The Church holds that all law comes from God and laws are to be respected unless and until determined to be unjust by appropriate ecclesiastical authority.

​

Originally Posted by Fremont
…
Local bishops? You have to be kidding.

They emphasize why I am so very grateful that we have the rule of law in the US and not the rule of men, laws that apply equally to everyone.

These are the guys that aid child-abusing priests and then use donations from the faithful to bribe the victims and their families to not tell the police. They then lied repeatedly to the police and the community about what they had done.

They have repeatedly shown a distain and lack of respect of our laws…​

Originally Posted by Fremont
… I believe we are now in a period of too many bad bishops. …​

Originally Posted by Fremont
… As I said you are free to blindly follow your bishops if that makes you feel good and picture yourself as pious. In my opinion there are too many dishonest bishops for me to put much credence in anything they say on any topic.

It is heartening to me to see Pope Benedict starting to punish some of the dishonest and sexually abusing bishops that JP II protected.… :

It is nice to see your endorsement of these postings. Maybe we have some common ground after all.

 

[Ituyu]

It has been established that Rome has not interpreted the broad range of Church teachings to declared any current US immigration laws, rules or regulations as unjust, unfair or in any way contrary to Church teaching.

I’ve cited the Pope’s, the Bible and the Catechism. The Pope has said that ALL people have inviolable RIGHTS that not only cannot be taken away but cannot be surrendered. Where have you established that the Church contradicts its teachings? Your rants and ramblings have only demonstrated your willingness to promote ideas that are diametrically opposed to Church Teaching regarding Love, The Poor, Mercy, Charity and Justice. You’ve said that “illegal” immigrants have NO RIGHTS and that we have the right to cause them grave harm for pursuing their God Given rights and obligations. You haven’t established that Church Teachings are in error. Your source please.

 

[Jeffrey]

What violence? You mean the criminals sneaking over the border?

If you’re talking about having them serve in our military… they’d be trained and have weapons.

Explain to me how there can be “pride” and “honor” in promoting violence against innocent, unarmed, and untrained civilians.

 

[Ituyu]

What violence? You mean the criminals sneaking over the border?

If you’re talking about having them serve in our military… they’d be trained and have weapons.

You really should be more careful about what you choose to re-post. What I am referring to is this:

If they refuse to serve, ship them to Iraq anyway, without the canteen, rifle or ammo.

Problem solved

Kidnapping and unjustly endangering a people in such a way as could reasonably cause grave harm because they come to work is VIOLENCE. What was said does not even choose to keep women, children or the elderly from harm.

 

[Jeffrey]

You should make sure what you are referring to is clearly stated.

At any rate… if they don’t try to come over the border illegally… there wouldn’t even be this disuccion.

Trying to sneak over the border thru a desert does not keep women children and the elderly from harm.

The illegals should try to make changes in thier country. Not sneak over here illegally.

You really should be more careful about what you choose to re-post. What I am referring to is this:

Kidnapping and unjustly endangering a people in such a way as could reasonably cause grave harm because they come to work is VIOLENCE. What was said does not even choose to keep women, children or the elderly from harm.