Illegal immigrant rights

[Contarini]

US immigration laws are reasonable and just. The US welcomes over 1 million legal immigrants every year – many more than any other country in the world.

That’s hardly the point. The U.S. is an extremely large and prosperous nation–of course it’s going to have more immigrants. Simply citing the number of immigrants doesn’t address the question of whether immigration laws are just.

Expecting all those who wish to immigrate to the US to follow our laws is not unreasonable.

But this is a catch-22, because the laws effectively prevent most of them from immigrating at all.

Local bishops? You have to be kidding.

No, because as an Anglican I take the historic witness of Christian tradition seriously, and this witness tells me to obey my local bishop unless that bishop is flatly contradicting the universal Church. Catholics are supposed to do so as well, last I heard. Treating the authority of local bishops as a joke is not orthodox Christianity.

These are the guys that aid child-abusing priests and then use donations from the faithful to bribe the victims and their families to not tell the police. They then lied repeatedly to the police and the community about what they had done.

So don’t be a Catholic. But as a Catholic you are obliged to respect the authority of your bishop.

They have repeatedly shown a distain and lack of respect of our laws.

As a Christian, your first loyalty is to your bishop, with the government a very distant second. The fact that you can speak of bishops as “they” and the secular government as “us” shows just how far from orthodox Christianity you are.

And are you seriously going to tell me that secular leaders are free from corruption?

I sure do not want such people making public policy.

And you do want Congress making public policy? Come on now. Are you seriously trying to tell me that the secular government is more to be trusted than the Church?

Power corrupts. It corrupts everyone. But this corruption is certainly not confined to ecclesiastical leaders.

Edwin

 

[Fremont]

That’s hardly the point. The U.S. is an extremely large and prosperous nation–of course it’s going to have more immigrants. Simply citing the number of immigrants doesn’t address the question of whether immigration laws are just.

But this is a catch-22, because the laws effectively prevent most of them from immigrating at all.

To me that is precisely the point.

Us immigration policy is fair and just. It is also skewed heavily toward nationals of countries whose nationals are commonly considered minorities in the USA. Over 80% of the immigrants come from Latin America, South America, Asia, India and Africa.

Our government has made decisions based on the needs of the immigrants and the best interests of the US of how many immigrants should be welcomed each year. If you are unhappy about that you have the right to petition your congressperson, you senator and the president with you arguments as why that number should be larger or smaller and/or whether the preferences to various countries should altered.

No one is preventing anyone. There is a procedure for potential immigrants to follow. It may take a while but so what?

No, because as an Anglican I take the historic witness of Christian tradition seriously, and this witness tells me to obey my local bishop unless that bishop is flatly contradicting the universal Church. Catholics are supposed to do so as well, last I heard. Treating the authority of local bishops as a joke is not orthodox Christianity.

So don’t be a Catholic. But as a Catholic you are obliged to respect the authority of your bishop.

As a Christian, your first loyalty is to your bishop, with the government a very distant second. The fact that you can speak of bishops as “they” and the secular government as “us” shows just how far from orthodox Christianity you are.

You can view your Episcopalian bishops as you please. The Catholic Church has enjoyed good bishops and Popes and endured bad bishops and Popes.

I believe we are now in a period of too many bad bishops. Earlier this year in the Catholic Answers magazine, This Rock, there was an article entitled, What can we do about Bad Bishops? You might want to read it.

As a Catholic I guess I have to tolerate bad bishops but that does not mean I have to respect them

And are you seriously going to tell me that secular leaders are free from corruption?

And you do want Congress making public policy? Come on now. Are you seriously trying to tell me that the secular government is more to be trusted than the Church?

Power corrupts. It corrupts everyone. But this corruption is certainly not confined to ecclesiastical leaders.

Edwin

No one said secular leaders are free of corruption. Regardless of that, of course I want Congress to establish our laws. That is how our government is set up. They are elected officials, sworn to uphold the Constitution and with checks and balances on their authority. Again I will emphasize that I am so very grateful that we have the rule of law in the US and not the rule of men, laws that apply equally to everyone.

Let’s remember this forum is about immigration, not bishops. You posted the bishop point, I responded. Let’s get back on topic.

 

[Jedi_Master]

You can view your Episcopalian bishops as you please. The Catholic Church has enjoyed good bishops and Popes and endured bad bishops and Popes.

I believe we are now in a period of too many bad bishops. Earlier this year in the Catholic Answers magazine, This Rock, there was an article entitled, What can we do about Bad Bishops? You might want to read it.

As a Catholic I guess I have to tolerate bad bishops but that does not mean I have to respect them

you completely ignored his point. Let me repost it for you

<< I take the historic witness of Christian tradition seriously, and this witness tells me to obey my local bishop unless that bishop is flatly contradicting the universal Church. Catholics are supposed to do so as well, last I heard. Treating the authority of local bishops as a joke is not orthodox Christianity.>>

Can you demonstrate for us where these local Bishops have disobeyed or veered away from Catholic teaching on this topic of immigration for you to disobey?

 

[davy39]

US immigration laws are reasonable and just. The US welcomes over 1 million legal immigrants every year – many more than any other country in the world.

Expecting all those who wish to immigrate to the US to follow our laws is not unreasonable.

Local bishops? You have to be kidding.

They emphasize why I am so very grateful that we have the rule of law in the US and not the rule of men, laws that apply equally to everyone.

These are the guys that aid child-abusing priests and then use donations from the faithful to bribe the victims and their families to not tell the police. They then lied repeatedly to the police and the community about what they had done.

They have repeatedly shown a distain and lack of respect of our laws.

I sure do not want such people making public policy.

Maybe the Bishops should be taking care of the priest-child abuse situation more, than worrying about every illegal alien that crosses the border. The illegals have said repeatedly that they don’t want to assimulate into our country, they want Mexico transplanted here. Also, why do they want to come here for jobs, when most of our major corporations have moved most of their jobs to Mexico?

 

[Fremont]

you completely ignored his point. Let me repost it for you

<< I take the historic witness of Christian tradition seriously, and this witness tells me to obey my local bishop unless that bishop is flatly contradicting the universal Church. Catholics are supposed to do so as well, last I heard. Treating the authority of local bishops as a joke is not orthodox Christianity.>>

Can you demonstrate for us where these local Bishops have disobeyed or veered away from Catholic teaching on this topic of immigration for you to disobey?

I read you thoughts before. As I said you are free to blindly follow your bishops if that makes you feel good and picture yourself as pious. In my opinion there are too many dishonest bishops for me to put much credence in anything they say on any topic.

It is heartening to me to see Pope Benedict starting to punish some of the dishonest and sexually abusing bishops that JP II protected. I am very happy to see that phase of our Church changing for the better.

Let us get back on the topic of this forum – immigration.

The US generally requires a valid passport and visa (permission to enter) from all persons desiring to enter the US. The authorities in Rome have never said that law and policy is unjust or in conflict with Church teaching. In my opinion no Bishop has the authority to override that.

US immigration laws and policy determines the number of immigrants welcomed each year. That is an average of well over 4,000 per day. The authorities in Rome have never said that law and policy is unjust or in conflict with Church teaching. In my opinion no Bishop has the authority to override that.

US immigration policy gives preferences to countries whose nationals are generally considered minorities in the US, with the largest preferences provided to Mexico. The authorities in Rome have never said that law and policy is unjust or in conflict with Church teaching. In my opinion no Bishop has the authority to override that.

US immigration policy requires that immigrants desiring permanent residence in the US must have permission, and there are procedures for obtaining that, a government issued residency card, a government issued right to work card, a government issued social security number or ITIN number. The authorities in Rome have never said that law and policy is unjust or in conflict with Church teaching. In my opinion no Bishop has the authority to override that.

To the best of my knowledge the authorities in Rome have never said that certain groups based on race, ethnicity, country of origin, economic status, etc. are free to make unilateral decisions to ignore or violate any US immigration laws or policies as well as other US laws while other groups based on different race, ethnicity, country of origin, economic status, etc. are not free to do so.

To the best of my knowledge the authorities in Rome have never said that individuals, no matter what their race, ethnicity, country of origin, economic status, etc., are free to make unilateral decisions to ignore or violate any US immigration laws or policies as well as other US laws.

I am open to being enlightened if you have information to the contrary.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

From the eariler sighted url http:// www. house.gov/ list/speech/ga09_norwood/MinutemanReport.html*(remove * and “spaces” )

The purpose of the references I posted was to illustrate the basis for my position on illegal immigration in response to your request.

The Church defines Hate as wishing evil on another and desiring great harm to them. There is nothing in any of the references that state any such thing. To profess you can see into someone else’s soul and see hatred is at least a bit presumptuous. Hate is a very serious matter in my mind and your charges are unjust and unfounded.

Thanks Fremont I have no reason to assume you are not seeing the “hate” but frankly this is obvious. I continue to ask you to speak on this issue, rather than sight others, because it might reveal your true concern. See these people attempting to come to the U.S. to work actually improve your life, so what in the problem? (Please skip the illegal is illegal) Fremont I will bet in the town you live people drive drunk, speed in cars, run red lights, husband & wives fight? So where is the push to send armed civilians after these people’s illegal acts? Which is a bigger danger to you a drunk driver or a man moving grass? Yet armed civilians marching up and down the border is one of your posts. To be fair let me expand to actual quotes from the article and add my thoughts

“-Internet ads of the Minutemen for volunteers Volunteers participated from virtually all states, and every racial and ethnic group.” Why would you recruit radical groups from the internet? I simply see this as a call to extremists.

"-Leadership determined that several smaller groups that arrived were likely racist in nature, and were accordingly not allowed to participate in the project. Those individuals reportedly moved to the far end of the valley, where they said they intended to “do their own thing” in observing the border, outside the Minutemen’s operational area, and were not heard from again. " As mentioned before the Minutemen report shows no need to report this type of activity even though they acknowledge recruiting radical groups from the internet. See if the minuteman were anti -crime (illegal is illegal) then this have been issue for them. I submit to you this is not a big issue to them because they have a secret agenda which radical group’s and non-reported racist help them achieve. Please also not the judge and jury actions taken here by the Minutemen.

“-One would-be member was evicted for brandishing a M-16;” well should we add words? let’s assume this is misstated lets assume this person was banished for having an M-16 which if automatic(as designed) is illegal. Thus I will assume having an illegal gun is not okay with the Minutemen even if you do not brandish it. Now let’s also assume the Minutemen actually follow the law themselves. See they have no legal authority to evict anyone from land they do not own. But let’s assume this figurative speech is not literal speech- 1) Why is this language being used “radical”, “brandish”, “evict”. I tell you it is to convey a message concerning their hidden agenda. 2) Why again confronting a highly likely illegal action did the Minutemen fail to see this as a reportable issue. Again I tell you it not illegal action which is their concern it only certain types of illegal actions.
(cont)

 

[Texas_Roofer]

(cont)
“- another was sent home after leadership determined he was experiencing stress-related emotional problems.” Well can we just say a repeat of above and once again note the Judge and Jury affect.

“- At one point, a debate was held over whether the Mississippi state flag should be allowed to fly alongside the 49 other state flags outside Project headquarters” This is sad and funny at the same time, see the problem is the conscious which has the subject on the mind so strongly to both address such a non-issue and to write about it to!

“-By observation, about two-thirds of personnel were armed with handguns.” Why if their true role was to observe and report for apprehension what are you doing with ALL these guns? Can we accept honesty - guns only do one thing and that is not to provide water, food or shade. Also in understanding this you may wish to read the section in which lost immigrant come to the Minutemen for help. The immigrate is given water and Border Patrol is called. The Minutemen report this incident as a rule violation. See if giving water is a rule violation but stalk with guns is planned activity the message is clear.

"- The perpetrators of this jamming operation remain unknown, with speculation leading from “coyotes” and drug smugglers, to Mexican military and civil authorities. " Sounds as though the paranoid are in charge and what a range of dispersion! see this is extremely dangerous because it again shows the work of the subconscious.

“- Opposing groups included the ACLU; La Raza; Hispanic separatist Dr. Armando Navarro; Salvadoran street gang MS-13; Mexican drug and human trafficking rings, and Earth Liberation.” The subconscious says those people must be. How do Minutemen speak for the Street Gang? How do Minutemen speak for the drug traffickers? How do Minutemen speak for the human trafficker?

“- Vehicles filled with apparently young Hispanic males were frequently observed cruising by Tombstone Tumbleweed offices at all hours, menacing, glaring and pointing at newspaper and MMP personnel” The subconscious says those people are not men but Hispanic

I do not know where you are coming from but as far as I know the only reference I posted that says much about the Minuteman organization is the one shown below. I find nothing in that reference stating anything about M-16 weapons, racist elements or emotionally disturbed people.

see above

--------. Further there are references about how Minuteman members give aid – water, food, etc. – to illegal’s trying to sneak into the US. Of course then they report them to US officials.

The article actually sighted this as a violation of the Minutemen rules - had they stalked this fellow with guns that would be acceptable and desired behavior. The providing water and having interaction was deemed as the rule violation. The article also indicated this man was lost and came to them for help.

Hope that helps explain the comments

 

[TimOliv]

When my family came from Italy, they were starving, and yet, they went through appropriate channels to become citizens. When they were finally permitted entry to the US, they served in the Armed Forces, they paid their taxes, they learned the new language of the land, they sent their children to American schools so that they would grow up to be Americans, but they still held onto their Italian values and taught their children always to appreciate their culture.

Enter present day…

People are sneaking in, they are not paying taxes, yet, politicians want to make them eligible for social security, they use false documents to obtain employment, sometimes they never learn the language, they teach their children spanish instead of English, then sue the schools for not teaching and testing in Spanish.

We are under an obligation to help those in need. Those in need, however, are also under an obligation to obey the laws of the land. To style a person an “illegal alien” is not meant to identify a group that needs people fighting for their equality. It is a group comprised of people, from any country in the world, who are in this country illegally, entered the country illegally, or are presently working in this country illegally.

Every human being has basic rights. The United States also has rights. One such right is to not hand out passports as a reward for breaking the rules. One such right is to not pay people from the retirement system we have in place to the detriment of those who contribute to it. To do so would not be christian charity, it would not be the just thing to do, to do so would be a miscarriage of justice.

This country was founded on principles of freedom. It is that freedom that enabled so many poor immigrants to rise up and succeed. No longer did you have to be the child of an upper-class family to have a fighting chance, there was no feudal titles that clearly distinguished the elite from the outcasts. This country was not founded on the principle of “work hard, pay your taxes, then we are going to give your retirement check to this guy, because some people say he had a tougher life than you”

Shame on all of you who think that this is a matter of racism. We exclude nobody, and the result is many successful people in America from varied cultural backgrounds. And shame on you for insisting that to use other people’s money (tax dollars) to make your moral statement. Show me where in any religious text it tells you that you are supposed to involuntarily remove funds from a person so that you can turn around and use those funds for your idea of charity, and I will show you a text as flawed as the book of Mormon.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Thanks TimOliv

Not sure if you are writing to me but I would ask you to review post #8 and also Post #42 . I am not really into the evaluation of the immigration laws, but I find Post #42 odd in that regard?

 

[TimOliv]

Thanks TimOliv

Not sure if you are writing to me but I would ask you to review post #8 and also Post #42 . I am not really into the evaluation of the immigration laws, but I find Post #42 odd in that regard?

Beyond evaluating immigration laws, we need to look at the rules governing life in America, not just the laws that get you in. If you are here illegally, why are you getting benefits that should be entitlements only to US Citizens?

There are many countries with less freedom of religion than America and a much higher Catholic population that do not afford retirement benefits, free healthcare, free education or financial assistance to those who are in the country illegally.

Go to Italy, start living and working there, then demand that the schools teach your children in English. Go to Austria and tell them that you have been living there illegally for many years and you’d like to start collecting retirement benefits from the government even though you never paid into the system, then go to Vatican City and demand welfare because no one will hire you because you are not authorized to work, see how far you get.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

…
There are many countries with less freedom of religion than America and a much higher Catholic population that do not afford retirement benefits, free healthcare, free education or financial assistance to those who are in the country illegally.

are they really getting “free” stuff? is the retirement free? or do you mean some immigrates. I know a family of refuges from the Bosnian war. When their child broke an arm, they were recently here with no money so is that typical of what you thinking of?

Go to Italy, start living and working there, then demand that the schools teach your children in English. Go to Austria and tell them that you have been living there illegally for many years and you’d like to start collecting retirement benefits from the government even though you never paid into the system, then go to Vatican City and demand welfare because no one will hire you because you are not authorized to work, see how far you get.

Is that the same as if I go there and work hard for years, pay taxes, and never ask them for these items? I do not see many immigrate making these requests. I see American teachers doing this and some smart financial people having these discussion but not “illegal” immigrates, does that matter? Are you aware children born in the U.S. are U.S. Citizen whether they speak English or not.

 

[Jedi_Master]

Maybe the Bishops should be taking care of the priest-child abuse situation more, than worrying about every illegal alien that crosses the border. The illegals have said repeatedly that they don’t want to assimulate into our country, they want Mexico transplanted here. Also, why do they want to come here for jobs, when most of our major corporations have moved most of their jobs to Mexico?

Maybe you should address the argument and not go off on a tangent

 

[Fremont]

(cont)
“- another was sent home after leadership determined he was experiencing stress-related emotional problems.” Well can we just say a repeat of above and once again note the Judge and Jury affect.

“- At one point, a debate was held over whether the Mississippi state flag should be allowed to fly alongside the 49 other state flags outside Project headquarters” This is sad and funny at the same time, see the problem is the conscious which has the subject on the mind so strongly to both address such a non-issue and to write about it to!

“-By observation, about two-thirds of personnel were armed with handguns.” Why if their true role was to observe and report for apprehension what are you doing with ALL these guns? Can we accept honesty - guns only do one thing and that is not to provide water, food or shade. Also in understanding this you may wish to read the section in which lost immigrant come to the Minutemen for help. The immigrate is given water and Border Patrol is called. The Minutemen report this incident as a rule violation. See if giving water is a rule violation but stalk with guns is planned activity the message is clear.

"- The perpetrators of this jamming operation remain unknown, with speculation leading from “coyotes” and drug smugglers, to Mexican military and civil authorities. " Sounds as though the paranoid are in charge and what a range of dispersion! see this is extremely dangerous because it again shows the work of the subconscious.

“- Opposing groups included the ACLU; La Raza; Hispanic separatist Dr. Armando Navarro; Salvadoran street gang MS-13; Mexican drug and human trafficking rings, and Earth Liberation.” The subconscious says those people must be. How do Minutemen speak for the Street Gang? How do Minutemen speak for the drug traffickers? How do Minutemen speak for the human trafficker?

“- Vehicles filled with apparently young Hispanic males were frequently observed cruising by Tombstone Tumbleweed offices at all hours, menacing, glaring and pointing at newspaper and MMP personnel” The subconscious says those people are not men but Hispanic

see above The article actually sighted this as a violation of the Minutemen rules - had they stalked this fellow with guns that would be acceptable and desired behavior. The providing water and having interaction was deemed as the rule violation. The article also indicated this man was lost and came to them for help.

Hope that helps explain the comments

There is nothing more for me to say here.

You see hate in legitimate observations and constructive dialog on how matters can proceed.

You claim my references contain wild statements about the Minuteman organization that simply are not there. Your claims are false.

If you have your objections to that organization that is your problem. But to falsely claim my postings contain the issues about M-16 weapons, racism, mental instability, etc. is false and seems to show your lack of respect for the truth.

No reasonable dialog can continue until this sort of pattern ceases.

 

[Jedi_Master]

I read you thoughts before. As I said you are free to blindly follow your bishops if that makes you feel good and picture yourself as pious. In my opinion there are too many dishonest bishops for me to put much credence in anything they say on any topic.

I find it rather amusing that you put more credence on our President than your do on our Holy Bishops. A President that used false information to convince us to go to war. A President that has done nothing but lie to us. Amazing!

To the best of my knowledge the authorities in Rome have never said that individuals, no matter what their race, ethnicity, country of origin, economic status, etc., are free to make unilateral decisions to ignore or violate any US immigration laws or policies as well as other US laws.

The Catechism tells us Catholics what to do. There are Priests and Bishops that have led the flock to protest abortion clinics which our US Laws defend and support. They have even caused many of our brethren to be arrested and abused because of their pro-life stance. So what is more important? Uphold Christian Values or American ones?

 

[Texas_Roofer]

There is nothing more for me to say here.

You see hate in legitimate observations and constructive dialog on how matters can proceed.

You claim my references contain wild statements about the Minuteman organization that simply are not there. Your claims are false.

If you have your objections to that organization that is your problem. But to falsely claim my postings contain the issues about M-16 weapons, racism, mental instability, etc. is false and seems to show your lack of respect for the truth.

No reasonable dialog can continue until this sort of pattern ceases.

Mr Fremont
I must say I take umbrage to your current post. If you look at the top of post #46 it is very clear where this information came from. Similarly if you look at post #32 the link third from bottom, it is very clear. You sir posted the website not I. The link you posted does not actually work however it clearly shows the web page and the reference “Minutemen” in post #46 the link is reposted in broken form to prevent a repeat of #32. In post #46 and #47 actual quotes are taken from that report and placed in quotation marks. Mr. Fremont you may have any personal opinion you wish. You may state opinions in which strapping on guns and following people into the desert are acts of love in your opinion, however I must insist the comments you make are truthful in nature particularly when such are accusatory toward me.

 

[Fremont]

I find it rather amusing that you put more credence on our President than your do on our Holy Bishops. A President that used false information to convince us to go to war. A President that has done nothing but lie to us. Amazing!

The Catechism tells us Catholics what to do. There are Priests and Bishops that have led the flock to protest abortion clinics which our US Laws defend and support. They have even caused many of our brethren to be arrested and abused because of their pro-life stance. So what is more important? Uphold Christian Values or American ones?

I said I wanted our social values and laws established by authorities who are elected by the people, authorities who swear to uphold our constitution and authorities who are in accountable positions controlled by checks and balances. I do not want any sort of bishop, any sort of Rabbi, any sort of Muslim cleric, any sort of Hindu cleric - none of whom fit any of those criteria - to have any authority to set our social values or our laws.

To that end, yes I certainly do trust President Bush more than most bishops.

Don’t be naïve. Certainly we uphold Christian values – and American values – and both within the laws of our nation.

I have not heard of anyone who was arrested for protesting abortion when the protest was conducted in a legal way. We all have the right to assembly and to speak our thoughts but that has to be done within the rules.

 

[Fremont]

Mr Fremont
I must say I take umbrage to your current post. If you look at the top of post #46 it is very clear where this information came from. Similarly if you look at post #32 the link third from bottom, it is very clear. You sir posted the website not I. The link you posted does not actually work however it clearly shows the web page and the reference “Minutemen” in post #46 the link is reposted in broken form to prevent a repeat of #32. In post #46 and #47 actual quotes are taken from that report and placed in quotation marks. Mr. Fremont you may have any personal opinion you wish. You may state opinions in which strapping on guns and following people into the desert are acts of love in your opinion, however I must insist the comments you make are truthful in nature particularly when such are accusatory toward me.

I am sorry if the reference did not work for you. It worked for me.

Here it is again and I will try to assure it works.

house.gov/list/speech/ga09_norwood/Minutemen.html

There is nothing in this reference about M-16 weapons, racism or mental deranged people.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

I am sorry if the reference did not work for you. It worked for me.

Here it is again and I will try to assure it works.

house.gov/list/speech/ga09_norwood/Minutemen.html

There is nothing in this reference about M-16 weapons, racism or mental deranged people.

Thank you Mr. Fremont

These articles have the same authors. One article is Posted April 8, 2005 but contains the project conclusions - the project did not end until April 30, 2005 the final report was scheduled for issue May 2, 2005. Mr. Fremont can you explain the how an April 8th post contained the finding which had not yet been made? Let me be very clear the report you sight says

excerpt 1) " Fort Huachuca: The U.S. Army maintains its own security and patrols over the base area, frequently used by illegal immigrants. ROTC Cadets from Arizona State University on training duty at the base apprehended and detained 16 illegal immigrants earlier this week; 513 illegals were apprehended on base in March. "

excerpt 2) “*Prior to the Minuteman Project observation posts becoming active on April 4,…” *

excerpt 3) "Leaders of the Minutemen Project say they currently have around 450 volunteers in the field. They have been in the field since Monday, April 4,"

excerpt 4)" While that hasn’t slowed the Minutemen down in bringing their 30-day project to reality"

excerpt 5)"* But both stories have the same ending: illegal activity in this, the heaviest illegal immigration border sector in America, has been brought to a screeching halt*. "

excerpt 6) *“An on-going miracle is occurring this month in America’s Southwest” *

Mr. Fremont the report says 513 people were apprehended in March, the investigation they were to conduct did not start until April 4 by on April 8th the 30 day conclusion was not just reached but published! Mr. Fremont I make no apology, and flatly condemn actions of this type.

 

[Jedi_Master]

I said I wanted our social values and laws established by authorities who are elected by the people, authorities who swear to uphold our constitution and authorities who are in accountable positions controlled by checks and balances. I do not want any sort of bishop, any sort of Rabbi, any sort of Muslim cleric, any sort of Hindu cleric - none of whom fit any of those criteria - to have any authority to set our social values or our laws…

I just realized what a complete waste of time it was to dialogue with you. I thought you were a Catholic. My bad.

I have not heard of anyone who was arrested for protesting abortion when the protest was conducted in a legal way. We all have the right to assembly and to speak our thoughts but that has to be done within the rules.

I have seen videos of some having their arms broken by the police. Some hit by billy clubs. It is not pretty. I see you have nothing to base your argument on.

 

[Walt_Oliver]

WARNING

Please stay on topic.

Do not question the faith of other posters.

Do not make personal attacks.

Your cooperation is requested and required. Thanks.

Walt