I'm getting tired of hearing from Protestants that we worship Mary and the saints!

[SIA]

Wouldn’t that be true for everyone, every denomination who interprets Scripture differently than you?

When I read statements like this I think; “Isn’t Jesus is the Word of God? And wouldn’t that make Scripture inspired quotes?” There’s a difference in venerating the bible and making an idol out of it. I’m assuming you know the difference.

This is another point that doesn’t make sense. Scripture - specifically the New Testament is born from Tradition and it took nearly four centuries to put Old and New Testament scripture into one volume. How can this statment be true?

This is another sweeping generalization that astonishes me… How does your interpretation of Scripture “square” with Anglicans, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Eastern Orthodox, Baptists, Methodists and etc.? Is your interpretation better than their’s? Surely it can’t be the same…

I’m sorry, but your mental gymnastics don’t pass for logic. There is no sweeping generalization. It is a fact that much of the Catholic doctrines and dogma do not square with Scripture. And as for Tradition, of course the Scriptures were built upon much tradition, but here and again if you are coming out with so called traditions that do not square with Biblical teachings, the so called traditions then would not be truth. And the the revolving door game with Scripture interpretation doesn’t cut it either. I can show you a dozen Catholics right now in my old parish that have six different points of view on Scripture and Tradition and a couple of them that are not too fond of Benedict XVI!

 

[Chris_LaRock]

“The foundation of all our confidence is found in the Blessed Virgin Mary. God has committed to her the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is His will: That we obtain everything through Mary.”
Pope Pius IX

“Sinners receive pardon by the intercession of Mary alone.”
St. John Chrysostom

“All those who seek Mary’s protection will be saved for all eternity.”
Pope Benedict XV

“As St. Bernard declares, ‘it is the will of God that we obtain favors through Mary, let everyone hasten to have recourse to Mary.”
Pius XII, Superiore Anno, 1940

 

[VARC]

Technically catholics do worship Mary and the saints. The seventh Ecumenical Council just split hairs over what worship means. Catholics worship (latria) God alone but they also worship (dulia) the saints as well. They worship (hyperdulia) Mary more than the saints but less than God. If I’m not mistaken, the words latria and dulia were interchangable before the Council but the Church needed to make a distiction. In English, catholics often say they worship God but they also honor or rever the saints. In the English dictionary these terms are all synonomous.

 

[SIA]

“The foundation of all our confidence is found in the Blessed Virgin Mary. God has committed to her the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is His will: That we obtain everything through Mary.”
Pope Pius IX

“Sinners receive pardon by the intercession of Mary alone.”
St. John Chrysostom

“All those who seek Mary’s protection will be saved for all eternity.”
Pope Benedict XV

“As St. Bernard declares, ‘it is the will of God that we obtain favors through Mary, let everyone hasten to have recourse to Mary.”
Pius XII, Superiore Anno, 1940

On what authority are these claims made? It surely is not Scripture.

 

[mmplps7783]

I am fed up with the false misconceptions by Protestant Christians who insist that we worship Mary and the saints. I will put this in plain English.

Catholics DO NOT worship Mary and the saints. It is veneration and honor due to them because they lived out the life that Jesus Christ taught them! They are also in Heaven with God. They are much closer to God than you and me.

Who are you to judge us that we worship saints and Mary? Do you think you an expert in Catholicism. Do you have proof from a Catholic document permitting the worship of saints and Mary?

You won’t find it. We believe these saints are more alive than you and me. It benefits us to ask the entire of the people of God to help us while we are still in this world which is full of temptation and sin. We ask the saints to “pray for us.”

Many times here on Catholic Answers Forums. Some Newbie self-proclaimed Christian declares, I say many Catholics worship Mary. Not all do, and maybe it’s not in the instruction manual, but many do. Every Catholic will come to these idoloters’ defense and say, “Oh, it’s not worship, it’s veneration.” Sorry, not buying it, and nobody should.

Oh, please. You will probably start searching for the truth and use Catholic prayer books on saints and Mary as proof text. Prayer Books however, are not Church documents.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church forbids worshipping idols. Worship is due to God alone.

Must we Catholic force you to type, “Catholics do not worship Mary.”

If you continue on this persistence, I might as well say that “Protestants worship the Bible, or the roof during their Sunday worship at Church.”

After all they raise hands up towards the ceiling. So they worship ceilings of the Church. Of course, I don’t think they worship ceiling just because they had their hands raised up high in adoration.

I don’t mean to get on the defensive but I will since you seem to already be there. As a protestant (I guess since I don’t believe in organized religion) I must say that the reason that we think the things we do is because of, like you said, misconceptions. If you would only calm down and get off of your high horse about the whole thing and realize that that could be the perfect opportunity that God has given you to witness then maybe you would be sending more souls to heaven instead of just your own.
One reason that we feel you worship the saints is because of the candles that you light before you pray to them (that has already been explained to me by others). The other reason is because many of us are afraid of angering God and that since he is a jealous God he might be alittle upset that instead of saying “oh dear God hear my prayer” you are saying “hail mary mother of God hear my plea” (I think that’s close right?).
And yes we raise our hands because in heaven is where He is and although the ceiling is there we believe that when praises go up blessings come down. We don’t do this to a picture or to a cross because once again we are afraid that God woud see that as worshiping graven images. I am so sorry that our “IGNORANCE” irritates you so but instead of taking that attitude you should really take it as a blessing. Even Jesus was tested.

 

[mmplps7783]

“The foundation of all our confidence is found in the Blessed Virgin Mary. God has committed to her the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is His will: That we obtain everything through Mary.”
Pope Pius IX

“Sinners receive pardon by the intercession of Mary alone.”
St. John Chrysostom

“All those who seek Mary’s protection will be saved for all eternity.”
Pope Benedict XV

“As St. Bernard declares, ‘it is the will of God that we obtain favors through Mary, let everyone hasten to have recourse to Mary.”
Pius XII, Superiore Anno, 1940

I keep getting confused here. Are these quotes supposed to make me turn to the catholic religion or run away as fast as I can? I am still trying to learn and these quotes are contradictory to what I was taught from the Bible.

 

[SIA]

“

“Sinners receive pardon by the intercession of Mary alone.”
St. John Chrysostom

This is pure unadulterated blasphemy against the words of Christ. Sorry about that.

 

[Pokedaughter]

“…it is still through Jesus that they reach the Father”

This is a very true statement because the bible mentions only Christ as the one who intercedes for us.

Hebrews 7 states that Jesus “lives” to intercede for us as our one and true permanent High Priest.

 

[mmplps7783]

I think you can get over this hurdel by having a protestant explain to you wha they mean by worship. Then explain what you mean by worship and show from your definition that what your doing is not worshiping.

To start off I am not speaking for every protestant only for myself. That being said, I think of worship as bowing down, singing songs to, and praying to them. I now know that your prayers to the saints are only for intercessory assistance. But us protestants only hear that you are praying to someone that is not God.

 

[SIA]

“…it is still through Jesus that they reach the Father”

This is a very true statement because the bible mentions only Christ as the one who intercedes for us.

Hebrews 7 states that Jesus “lives” to intercede for us as our one and true permanent High Priest.

Amen to that!

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

A lot of Catholics simply adore and love Mary. What Mary went through watching her Son’s passion, that willingness to give Him to us for our salvation, and how she points to the Lord all through His life, it’s a powerful thing.

But I will say that SOME Catholics bring these stereotypes and false impressions on themselves. I have gone into my church and seen Mexican folks kissing Mary statues, putting roses at her feet on statues and bowing over and over, kissing her hand then kissing her feet then kissing her crown and then bowing, etc.

I have read Medievel Marian prayers that are very objectionable to me and I’m Catholic! They talk about her as the light of the world and how salvation is impossible without her intercession, the world revolves around her and that only through Mary can we find hope, etc. Some idolotrous behavior, excessive devotion, and people who actually do borderline worship Mary have given bad names to folks who just admire and adore her as a saint, a powerful saint closer to Jesus than anyone ever.

 

[adstrinity]

mmplps7783, I am happy to have helped you out before. Permit me to try again pertaining to the jealous God concern. If I recall correctly, God decreed that in regards to putting idols above/worshiping things above Him. That’s not how praying to the Saints works because we ask them to pray to God with us/help us. We do this in God’s Will and it is still up to Him if He will answer our prayers. We do not take anything from God that is due to Him, we participate with those who do NOTHING BUT worship Him.

 

[mmplps7783]

A lot of Catholics simply adore and love Mary. What Mary went through watching her Son’s passion, that willingness to give Him to us for our salvation, and how she points to the Lord all through His life, it’s a powerful thing.

But I will say that SOME Catholics bring these stereotypes and false impressions on themselves. I have gone into my church and seen Mexican folks kissing Mary statues, putting roses at her feet on statues and bowing over and over, kissing her hand then kissing her feet then kissing her crown and then bowing, etc.

I have read Medievel Marian prayers that are very objectionable to me and I’m Catholic! They talk about her as the light of the world and how salvation is impossible without her intercession, the world revolves around her and that only through Mary can we find hope, etc. Some idolotrous behavior, excessive devotion, and people who actually do borderline worship Mary have given bad names to folks who just admire and adore her as a saint, a powerful saint closer to Jesus than anyone ever.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!! As I have said before my in-laws scare the **** out of me. They are all catholics and yes they do everything you described above. So,as a protestant (I know it’s wrong to generalize) I thought that was what all of you guys did and how you all acted. That is why I was saying to some other guy that everyone should calm down and instead of going on the defensive try to figure out where these assumptions are coming from. What behaviors are being displayed to give creedence to this widespread assumption about how catholics worship mary.

 

[mmplps7783]

mmplps7783, I am happy to have helped you out before. Permit me to try again pertaining to the jealous God concern. If I recall correctly, God decreed that in regards to putting idols above/worshiping things above Him. That’s not how praying to the Saints works because we ask them to pray to God with us/help us. We do this in God’s Will and it is still up to Him if He will answer our prayers. We do not take anything from God that is due to Him, we participate with those who do NOTHING BUT worship Him.

please read what I wrote to gurneyhallek1. That should clear up where most of the misconceptions come from.

 

[Chris_LaRock]

I keep getting confused here. Are these quotes supposed to make me turn to the catholic religion or run away as fast as I can? I am still trying to learn and these quotes are contradictory to what I was taught from the Bible.

Show me in scripture where it says we go to mary alone for mercy and intercession.

 

[Chris_LaRock]

“…it is still through Jesus that they reach the Father”

This is a very true statement because the bible mentions only Christ as the one who intercedes for us.

Hebrews 7 states that Jesus “lives” to intercede for us as our one and true permanent High Priest.

That’s my point exactly.

 

[Chris_LaRock]

A lot of Catholics simply adore and love Mary. What Mary went through watching her Son’s passion, that willingness to give Him to us for our salvation, and how she points to the Lord all through His life, it’s a powerful thing.

Why give her credit for ‘giving her son’? Did she have a choice in the matter?

 

[Peter_J]

To start off I am not speaking for every protestant only for myself. That being said, I think of worship as bowing down, singing songs to, and praying to them. I now know that your prayers to the saints are only for intercessory assistance. But us protestants only hear that you are praying to someone that is not God.

With respect to whether “praying to them” counts as worship or not, it’s important to note that our disagreement lies in how we each define “pray to”.

I said something about this on the “Co-redemptrix” thread, but I’d like to repeat it here (along with the post I was responding to):

…

And I’ll give another.

If I say that the word ‘pray’ historically means to ask, and that most Christian writings and teachings and documents (including the Bible) use the word ‘pray’ in that sense (which is true). . .

I think you hit on an important point here: the English word “pray” was once used to mean “ask”. Hence not only would people use “pray” in reference to God, Mary, and other Saints, but also in reference to our fellow man in general (“I pray you bear me henceforth from the noise and rumour of the field, where I may think the remnant of my thoughts in peace, and part of this body and my soul with contemplation and devout desires.” - William Shakespeare. And also “Speak the speech, I pray you, as I pronounced it to you – tripping on the tongue”)

It seems clear that if the usage of “pray” were the same now as it was then, the idea of “praying to Mary” would be less of an issue.

 

[Cat]

Why give her credit for ‘giving her son’? Did she have a choice in the matter?

Actually, yes.

IF you believe that Mary was a sinful woman like every other human being, then you will have to admit that it is possible that Mary could have indoctrinated Jesus from Day One with various false teachings.

E.g., she could have told Him constantly, “Don’t EVER let anyone hurt you. You’re too valuable to the world to be killed.” etc.

These teachings could have corrupted Jesus–He did have the free will to give in to temptation as a man. He could have told God, “Hey, I really don’t want to suffer and die. I think it would be better if I lived on earth forever and just taught good things.”

I am a mother of grown daughters. I have known MANY mothers and sadly, I have watched in horror as mothers have destroyed their children by constantly indoctrinating them with bad teachings.

Mothers of sons can turn their sons into “mama’s boys” or “Peter Pans” by not allowing them to do anything for themselves, by not allowing them to take risks, and by not allowing them to get involved with any other woman except “mom.” These helpless man-boys still live at home with mommy and are virtually useless to society. Occasionally they rebel and find a woman to fall in love with, but more often than not, they make the woman’s life a hell because they are in love with only one woman–their mother.

This is probably one of the main reasons that I believe in the Catholic teaching of the Immaculate Conception of Mary. I do not believe it is possible for a mere woman to do a perfect job of mothering and transmit only good and perfect things to her child. I can see many good things in my daughters that I personally taught them or role-modeled for them. But sadly, I can see faults, sins, and flaws in my daughters that I am responsible for. I taught them these bad habits, sinful tendencies, and faults in their character.

I believe that without the Immaculate Conception, it is possible that Mary could have imparted bad things to God Himself. Perhaps that is giving too much power to human beings, but after all, WE are the ones who sent God Himself to His death on the cross, so I think it is fair to say that we are more than just beasts. I think that the Immaculate Conception was necessary for God’s Redemption plan to succeed, and I think that those who question the doctrine should speak to God about it. We need to allow Him to work in the lives of others according to His plan, and not question why His plans are different than our plans.

 

[Cat]

To mmplps7783,

I think that rather than looking at other people and deciding that Catholicism is not true, it would be better for you to study Catholicism itself.

If a million Catholics are incorrectly practicing Catholicism, that does not make Catholicism false.

Another thing to think about–the Catholic Church does not require anyone to pray for a saint’s intercession. That is just one of the devotional options that is available to Catholics (and Protestants, too–I know Protestants that pray to relatives in heaven). But it is not a requirement for a Catholic to pray to a saint. The Rosary, e.g., is not required.

The candle is a visible reminder not to the saint, but to us. Have you never seen the “cross in my pocket” used by some evangelical Protestants, e.g., my father-in-law, a staunch Pentecostal? He knows that this little metal cross has no magic powers and it doesn’t bring him closer to God. It’s just a reminder to my father-in-law of the nearness of God and the love that He demonstrated when He died on the cross.

In the same way, the candle is just a reminder to me, a sinful, forgetful, silly-minded human being that I did pray a prayer and that even if I forget all about that prayer, GOD will always remember it and answer it.

I am a convert to Catholicism from evangelical Christianity. I personally find the Communion of the Saints to be one of the most Biblical of the doctrines of the Catholic church. I look at the story of the Transfiguration. Jesus was clearly speaking to Moses and Elijah about His upcoming trip to Jerusalem and what would happen to Him there. Peter, James, and John actually SAW these Old Testament people.

From this story, I conclude that 1) the saints are real and alive right now in heaven 2) the saints are aware of what is happening here on this earth 3) the saints are available to humans and can be used by God in His service if this is God’s will and plan and 4) humans can speak with saints.

I personally do not abase myself before saints, although I have no objection to what others do in their pursuit of God. I think we need to be careful not to criticize the physical devotional acts of others. When I was evangelical Protestant, I was very critical of Pentecostal emotionalism–hand-raising, slaying in the Spirit, and dancing in the aisles. Now I feel that this is between them and God. I don’t need to do the Holy Spirit’s work for Him; if He wants someone to stop a certain devotional practice, He is perfectly capable of telling that person to stop.

I talk to saints–as fellow human beings. I call St. Anthony of Padua “my buddy,” and I often ask him to step in. He is not Christ, and therefore, although I show him common respect that I would show any human being, I do not feel that it is necessary to revere him as a “god” or to bow before him or to use high language in speaking to him. He isn’t a God, he is a human being like me.

So is Mary, and I think that she must be embarrassed when some Christians mistakenly consider her a “goddess.” She is not.

Finally, in the hope that it will help you, I’ll tell you about a “vision” that I had shortly after becoming Catholic. It was just a glimpse, not even a second long. I was at Mass, and I saw a glimpse of my ancestors in heaven. They were dressed in the clothing styles of pre-Reformation Europeans, mainly peasants. But they were cheering because FINALLY, one of their family members had returned to the Catholic Church, the True Church, after being gone for centuries in the various Reformation churches (most of the Germans on my family tree were Reformed, and most of the Irish on my family tree were–believe it or not–Baptists!). I knew that these ancestors that I was seeing had been praying for centuries for someone in their family to return to Catholicism. And when if finally happened they were rejoicing in heaven over the soul of their descendant.

Like I said, I saw it in the blink of an eye, but the costumes and the faces were real people, my people.

One more thing to think about–even if you don’t quite believe in them, they believe in you. And they aren’t mad that you don’t believe, since to them, the important thing is that you believe in Jesus.