I'm getting tired of hearing from Protestants that we worship Mary and the saints!

[notsmart]

“My question is above…let me ask it this way…who are you consecrated wholely too notsmart - Jesus or Mary?”

Well, let me try to answer you as a non christian who finds beauty and wonder and grace all around me now, that I never did before.

I think the large part of your concern is confusion I saw a few posts back about making a comparison to Mary that one just can not make with Jesus Christ. I tried, and failed to express to you that Jesus Christ is God, Mary is created, and not a deity. I tried and failed to express that the Eucharist (which catholics consider to be the source and summit of their faith in Christ) is Jesus, and Mary is not a part of the Eucharist. Its His blood, His body.
It’s the heart and core of the Catholic Faith. Obedience to Christ, worship of only Jesus Christ, and hope in sharing with Him eternity by the grace God makes available to us (I think that is correct, but I am learning so bear with me)

Having said all that, now you should ask me who is the central focus of the Catholic Faith.

Now, if you want me to tell you all the very good reasons you should see Mary as catholics do, I will be happy to (from my viewpoint of course) as long as you know I have a distrust of apparitions, and in those matters, I would not be helpful to you.

 

[RobHom]

To be honest, it isn’t a point I’m particularly enthusiastic about arguing – theoretically, the usage of “adore” could change in the future such that we would speak of “adoring Mary”. (We could start about that, if you’d like.)

But for what it’s worth, I’ll give you a few quotes:

“Catholics do not worship or adore Mary the Mother of God and the saints. Rather, we honor and praise Mary and the saints because of their great love and faithfulness to God.”

• from Catholics United For The Faith

“God alone, the Supreme, Infinite Being, must be adored. To adore any creature, however exalted, would be to commit idolatry. It is simply absurd and also grossly unfair to say that Catholics adore Mary.”

• from This Rock

“This worship called forth by God, and given exclusively to Him as God, is designated by the Greek name latreia (latinized, latria), for which the best translation that our language affords is the word Adoration.”

• from the 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia
• from The Coming Home Journal

(Please note that I’m quoting these on a “for what it’s worth” basis. I make no claim that these are authoritative.)

Peter, I understand exactly what you are saying, I really do. I think that you and I are very much on the same page. Where I see the problem existing is that where you and I would view something as Catholics…others…especially non-Catholics do not have the learned perspectives that we have, but they have their own learned perspectives as taught to them by persons with no real grasp of Catholicism.

Unfortunately it would seem that some Catholic authors take “license” to use certain words in an improper context or direct usage. While you and I and other Catholics would rightly discern the real intent, non-Catholics do not. They tend to use literal meanings or misunderstand the meanings of words altogether based on their own biases.

I realize that your desire is as mine…to separate the wheat from the chaff, the truth from error… I pray we are both “successful”!!

 

[notsmart]

Metaphors and analogies have been very good ways of expressing the faith when in many cases, certain words just did not exist to describe some spiritual reality. A good example would be the objection by some non catholics to the word- the word transubstantiation. Now, when you really look at that whole topic it’s very clear to me anyway that this was the only and best way to express the thought in any kind of understandable way.
I don’t understand why people object to things without fully understanding what it is they are in fact objecting to.

 

[RobHom]

Metaphors and analogies have been very good ways of expressing the faith when in many cases, certain words just did not exist to describe some spiritual reality. A good example would be the objection by some non catholics to the word- the word transubstantiation. Now, when you really look at that whole topic it’s very clear to me anyway that this was the only and best way to express the thought in any kind of understandable way.
I don’t understand why people object to things without fully understanding what it is they are in fact objecting to.

I think that some people actually have a sort of fear of things they do not understand. It causes them doubt. It closes the mind. I believe it takes a strong mind to be open to things that are not familiar in some instances.

I was required to take classes is Humanities in College…one of the courses was about “Eastern Religions”…Buddhism, etc… and it was a comparative course. I think some people would be actually frightened to study it…because it is so alien to their own thoughts, even though no-one was trying to convert anyone…it was just a college course learning about something different than Western Religions and different cultures.

Some people are so closed minded that they will absolutely refuse to consider or think about anything outside of their immediate sphere of life. I think “narrow-minded” is one term that applies.

 

[notsmart]

I think that some people actually have a sort of fear of things they do not understand. It causes them doubt. It closes the mind. I believe it takes a strong mind to be open to things that are not familiar in some instances.

I was required to take classes is Humanities in College…one of the courses was about “Eastern Religions”…Buddhism, etc… and it was a comparative course. I think some people would be actually frightened to study it…because it is so alien to their own thoughts, even though no-one was trying to convert anyone…it was just a college course learning about something different than Western Religions and different cultures.

Some people are so closed minded that they will absolutely refuse to consider or think about anything outside of their immediate sphere of life. I think “narrow-minded” is one term that applies.

I think I have seen this type of mind here.

I want to learn about Eastern Religions once I get an opportunity to. However, I really think Judaism would be the first one to delve into for my studies in addition to what I am biting off now.
I actually think I learn more from going to Mass, praying and THEN study. Because when I skip the first 2, the last is a bit harder to do for me anyway.
Mary is loved by muslims also, and I would like to explore that more. Protestants have revered her and shown great piety in their devotions to her…
She had to have taught Jesus how to pray. I think mothers had that role in a child’s life. She must have taught him the psalms. (amoung other things)

 

[Thing]

Oh okay Peter J - thank you for that, I wasn’t aware of that.

I put the word “adoration” in with “veneration” and “hyper dulia”, as this is what some other Catholics have used themselves to distinguish from the “worship” Mary…so there you go Thing - I guess if you use this interpretation given for the word “adoration”, it would appear that some Catholics do indeed worship Mary.

Could you possibly rewrite that sentence, I cannot understand it.

And, I am asking you, personally, what you believe. I am not asking what you think or what you’ve heard somewhere or other.
I am asking you personally, Leeann, what you believe.

Do we worship Mary?

 

[Leeann]

Originally Posted by Leeann
With regards to not posting #4 and #5 - it wasn’t based on any “biase” - they simply did not address the “topic” of this thread…as to why some Protestants believe that Catholics worship Mary. I only posted 2 - I stopped short of posting other prayers that also point in the direction of “worship” towards Mary.

Whether it is “one” prayer or thirty, makes no difference,
it doesn’t take much to contaminate or misdirect people’s faith.

Douay Rheims online bible
Galatians 5 :V9
9 A little leaven corrupteth the whole lump.

I am still interested in what your thoughts are with regards to the prayer that I posted.

Robhorn

I have no problem with any of it, then again… I am a Catholic and I understand the subject at
hand. One prayer or 1,000,000 it makes no difference when you split things away and try to use them out of context. You are operating with a “preconceived bias” or prejudice. That’s your way… But in the Catholic “way” there is no “misdirecting or contamination of people’s faith”. Catholics are not “buffoons” (What an odd thing to say)… and unless you have learned about the Catholic Religion and its beliefs…you really should refrain from being “judgemental”. Did not Christ Himself say: Judge not lest ye be judged?

Yes….I believe He did…but I’m not certain that we “understand” it the same way…… or perhaps it’s just different “perspectives” as is evident from some of your own previous comments that you posted to me:

*“I do believe that you are somewhat “biased” in your “reading” and “discerning”, but that is to be expected.”

“Perhaps if you set aside your preconceived notions and prejudices…and took some time to read up on the CATHOLIC perspective with an open mind… you might be able to understand.”*

Also, I find it interesting that you took a snippet of scripture and used it entirely out of context. Wasn’t Paul talking about “circumcision” and what not, then moving on and talking about all kinds of evil stuff? I think your out of context example proves your entire point… (why thank you…then it was well worth posting, does this mean that you were able to understand that even though it was in reference to other evil stuff that was going on at that time…that this “phrase” can be applied to other things as well) You shouldn’t do things like you do, it makes you look as though you are attempting to mislead people and bearing false witness…yes? (well….that would be totally up to the “understanding” and “perspective” of the person who was reading it…and how, in their “open mindedness” they would choose to receive it)
Non-Catholics “think, believe or surmise” that Catholics worship Mary and whoever else on the planet y’all think we worship…because you listen to people who are wrong to begin with. They were taught falsehoods by others who were wrong. Any “non-Catholic” who believes, thinks or surmises that we worship Mary or the saints…is entirely in error. It would seem that the error is compounded by non-Catholics being wholly unable to accept and grasp the truth when it is handed free of charge to them by Catholic after Catholic after Catholic after Catholic, etc…
COLOR=“purple”]yes, I can see the problem there, however, I did not write that prayer, it was handed to me free of charge by an official Catholic website…I simply posted it……and of course there are a number of Catholic friends that I’ve know for over twenty odd years that have handed me, free of charge their own “understandings” and “perspectives”, both in discussion and by example, on where Mary stands in their lives…perhaps they were taught falsehoods)

I think were I you and other “non-Catholics”…I would be more concerned about how y’all have been misled and astray and your beliefs contaminated by many for the past 500 years… Seriously… were I in your shoes… I would be greatly concerned about that.

I answered your questions, move on.

I appreciate your genuine and heart felt concern, especially when it has been offered so graciously…is this also some your “Catholic way” as you described above?

I believe there are others in this thread that I have been in discussion with on this topic….if you feel that you have answered my question sufficiently and have posted everything that you feel compelled to post……then I thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut and time taken.

Peace and God Bless

 

[Leeann]

Could you possibly rewrite that sentence, I cannot understand it.

And, I am asking you, personally, what you believe. I am not asking what you think or what you’ve heard somewhere or other.
I am asking you personally, Leeann, what you believe.

Do we worship Mary?

Hi Thing

Peter J had pointed out to me that the use of the word “adoration” should not be used for Mary - but for God only and posted Catholic source definitions to back it up.

I had grouped the words “adoration/veneration/hyper dulia” all together- as some Catholics have used all of these words to explain to me the difference between the kind of worship afforded to Mary as to the kind of worship given to God.

I then quickly added a line to you in that response to Peter J - (which I shouldn’t have done – I should have answered you separately) to answer your question if I believed that Catholics worshipped Mary – my response being - that some Catholics then indeed do worship Mary if they use “adoration” as their form of communion with her.

For what I personally believe - I will refer again to the prayers I posted originally:

Act of Oblation to the Blessed Virgin Mary

My Queen! my Mother!
I give thee all myself, and,
to show my devotion to thee,
I consecrate to thee my eyes,
my ears, my mouth, my heart, my entire self.
Wherefore, O loving Mother,
as I am thine own,
keep me, defend me,
as thy property and possession.
Amen.

To me, this is worship, not simple veneration, but full on worship as is given to Jesus in this prayer:

Act of Consecration to Jesus

Lord Jesus Christ, I consecrate myself today anew and without reserve to your divine Heart. I consecrate to you my body with all its senses, my soul with all its faculties, my entire being. I consecrate to you all my thoughts, words and deeds, all my sufferings and labors, all my hopes, consolations and joys. In particular I consecrate to you this poor heart of mine so that it **may love only you **and may be consumed as a victim in the fire of your love.
**I place my trust in you without reserve **and I hope for the remission of my sins through your infinite mercy. I place within your hands all my cares and anxieties. I promise to love you and to honor you till the last moment of my life, and to spread, as much as I can, devotion to your most Sacred Heart.

Do with me what you will, my Jesus. I deserve no other reward except your greater glory and your holy love. Take this offering of myself and give me a place within your divine Heart forever. Amen.

And now my question to you – again – what would these prayers indicate to you?

Peace and God Bless

 

[Leeann]

Originally posted by Leeann:
My question is above…let me ask it this way…who are you consecrated wholely too notsmart - Jesus or Mary?"

Response by Not Smart

Well, let me try to answer you as a non christian who finds beauty and wonder and grace all around me now, that I never did before.

I think the large part of your concern is confusion I saw a few posts back about making a comparison to Mary that one just can not make with Jesus Christ. I tried, and failed to express to you that Jesus Christ is God, Mary is created, and not a deity. I tried and failed to express that the Eucharist (which catholics consider to be the source and summit of their faith in Christ) is Jesus, and Mary is not a part of the Eucharist.

**Check out the Vatican website **– www.vatican – and the **Encyclical Letter by Pope John Paul ****II - “Ecclesia De Eucharistia” – Chapter Six **under the heading of “At the School of Mary” – **“Woman of the ****Eucharist”. **In it he clearly states, a few times, that Mary was at the “last supper” with the apostles and partook of the first “eucharist” and goes on to state:
(Note: the underlined portions are mine)

1. “Do this in remembrance of me” (Lk 22:19). In the “memorial” of Calvary all that Christ accomplished by his passion and his death is present. Consequently all that Christ did with regard to his Mother for our sake is also present. To her he gave the beloved disciple and, in him, each of us: “Behold, your Son!”. To each of us he also says: “Behold your mother!” (cf. Jn 19: 26-27).

Experiencing the memorial of Christ’s death in the Eucharist also means continually receiving this gift. It means accepting – like John – the one who is given to us anew as our Mother. It also means taking on a commitment to be conformed to Christ, putting ourselves at the school of his Mother and allowing her to accompany us. Mary is present, with the Church and as the Mother of the Church, at each of our celebrations of the Eucharist. If the Church and the Eucharist are inseparably united, the same ought to be said of Mary and the Eucharist. This is one reason why, since ancient times, the commemoration of Mary has always been part of the Eucharistic celebrations of the Churches of East and West.

Its His blood, His body.
It’s the heart and core of the Catholic Faith. Obedience to Christ, worship of only Jesus Christ, and hope in sharing with Him eternity by the grace God makes available to us (I think that is correct, but I am learning so bear with me)
I think you’ve described it beautifully - as it should be done if done at all and as many Catholics indeed do observe it, however, it is apparent from Pope John Paul’s letter, (the whole chapter -not just what I’ve posted here) that the focus must be shared and with the guidance of Mary and encourages the Bishops, Priests, Deacons, Men and Women in the consecrated life and all the Lay Faithful to do the same.
Mary is very much a part of the Eucharist.

Having said all that, now you should ask me who is the central focus of the Catholic Faith.
I understand now… with regards to you being non Christian…about the re-phrasing of the question I posed to you above.

Now, if you want me to tell you all the very good reasons you should see Mary as catholics do, I will be happy to (from my viewpoint of course) as long as you know I have a distrust of apparitions, and in those matters, I would not be helpful to you.
I’d welcome your viewpoint Not Smart, thanks for your time and (name removed by moderator)ut.

Peace and God Bless

 

[LilyM]

Hi Thing

Peter J had pointed out to me that the use of the word “adoration” should not be used for Mary - but for God only and posted Catholic source definitions to back it up.

I had grouped the words “adoration/veneration/hyper dulia” all together- as some Catholics have used all of these words to explain to me the difference between the kind of worship afforded to Mary as to the kind of worship given to God.

I then quickly added a line to you in that response to Peter J - (which I shouldn’t have done – I should have answered you separately) to answer your question if I believed that Catholics worshipped Mary – my response being - that some Catholics then indeed do worship Mary if they use “adoration” as their form of communion with her.

For what I personally believe - I will refer again to the prayers I posted originally:

Act of Oblation to the Blessed Virgin Mary

My Queen! my Mother!
I give thee all myself, and,
to show my devotion to thee,
I consecrate to thee my eyes,
my ears, my mouth, my heart, my entire self.
Wherefore, O loving Mother,
as I am thine own,
keep me, defend me,
as thy property and possession.
Amen.

To me, this is worship, not simple veneration, but full on worship as is given to Jesus in this prayer:

Act of Consecration to Jesus

Lord Jesus Christ, I consecrate myself today anew and without reserve to your divine Heart. I consecrate to you my body with all its senses, my soul with all its faculties, my entire being. I consecrate to you all my thoughts, words and deeds, all my sufferings and labors, all my hopes, consolations and joys. In particular I consecrate to you this poor heart of mine so that it **may love only you **and may be consumed as a victim in the fire of your love.
**I place my trust in you without reserve **and I hope for the remission of my sins through your infinite mercy. I place within your hands all my cares and anxieties. I promise to love you and to honor you till the last moment of my life, and to spread, as much as I can, devotion to your most Sacred Heart.

Do with me what you will, my Jesus. I deserve no other reward except your greater glory and your holy love. Take this offering of myself and give me a place within your divine Heart forever. Amen.

And now my question to you – again – what would these prayers indicate to you?

Peace and God Bless

These prayers indicate to me someone who devotes themselves wholeheartedly to Jesus - both directly and THROUGH Mary, as St Louis de Montfort named his formula of consecration.

Again, there simply isn’t any competition or conflict between the ideas of consecration to Jesus and Mary - both are aimed at the same goal, leading us to God. For this reason it is entirely possible to be devoted to - and consecrated to - both at the same time.

To draw an analogy from real life - I have just a few months ago completed my law degree. The University that I did the majority of my studies at, and which ultimately awarded me my degree, we’ll call University X. But I didn’t BEGIN my degree there - I did slightly less than half of it at University Y and then transferred to University X. To add to the complication, I ALSO did a particular subject of that degree, which no other university offered, at a third place, University Z.

So can I say that I am an alumnus of University X AND University Y AND University Z? Absolutely. There is no conflict in saying this. And it doesn’t mean that my ATTITUDE towards all three, or my level of involvement and/or affection for all three is precisely the same, even though I use precisely the same word to describe my relationship to all three. Sometimes language is imprecise like that, sometimes I just can’t be bothered explaining to outsiders the intricacies of my studies nor the exact nature and level of my relationship to each place.

Now IMHO worship would be if we consecrated ourselves to Mary as an end in itself - and if we thought that she alone was required for our salvation apart from Christ. And we don’t.

The thing is, we just don’t see her as EVER being apart from Christ. Never. Just as the wise men in Bethlehem found ‘the child together with His mother’, so we believe we will always find Him TOGETHER WITH her, and her together with Him. Not as equals, but inseparably together nonetheless. Just as bodily, His physical matter and hers were inseparably linked (I’m guessing you don’t want to argue that He had none of her genetic matter - He wouldn’t be truly human if He didn’t, neither would there be any point whatsoever to the Incarnation.)

Possibly the prayer doesn’t absolutely make this creaturehood and essentially inferior degree of any consecration to Mary explicit, but nor does it have to - any more than when you say ‘I’ll kill you!’ in anger to your husband you don’t need to explain to him or anyone else that you don’t LITERALLY iintend to do murder upon his person. Any more than when you kneel at your bedside you need to explain to anyone that you’re not actually praying to nor worshipping the bed as a deity, nor are you kneeling before it because you believe God resides therein.

 

[Leeann]

Leeann,Just a couple of questions out of curiosity.
Have you ever visited the website, “In Defense of the Cross” ?
What do you think of all those people who have seen visions of Mary through out the years? Fatima is the most popular one but there are 9 more listed on this site.
And how long have you been a protestant?
What brings you to this site?
I’ve been a protestant all my life. My mother would flip out if she was around to know I was even looking into the catholic religion.
I am glad I am not being kept in a little box anymore. Being told not to read about other religions or asking questions of interest.
I thank God for this website and catholic radio.

A “couple of questions”…hahaha…what are you doing…writing a book???" (I’m just kidding!)

1. Yes (since you posted it - I went to look at it - had never seen it before.)
2. My hope and prayer is that they keep focussed on their devotion to Christ and are able to discern His truth. A good friend of mine has been caught up in the Medjugorje apparition claims and made a pilgrimage there…her focus is now centred totally on Mary - little if any mention is made of Jesus and His atoning sacrifice - her time spent in prayer and devotion is centred on Mary and the “benefits” derived from what can be “obtained”.
3. I personally stopped using the term “Protestant” long ago…I’m a Christian, a believer…if it needs to be defined in threads or chat rooms…“Protestant” is better than some of the other titles given…ie: hereitc, etc.
4. See answer #2

I’m sorry that you were “kept in a box” - that happens quite a lot in all religions - another of my Catholic friends wasn’t sure if she could attend the wedding of one of my daughters years ago, because it was not held in a Catholic church. (She came anyway)
It’s good to ask questions and to examine things carefully with an open mind and to be exposed to various cultures and their beliefs and to not be afraid. If you are sincere - God will direct your ways.

Peace and God Bless

 

[Leeann]

These prayers indicate to me someone who devotes themselves wholeheartedly to Jesus - both directly and THROUGH Mary, as St Louis de Montfort named his formula of consecration. I’m not familar with this “formula of consecration”, could you elaborate or post a site where I could read about it? Does it differ in “meaning” of the word itself?
Again, there simply isn’t any competition or conflict between the ideas of consecration to Jesus and Mary - both are aimed at the same goal, leading us to God. For this reason it is entirely possible to be devoted to - and consecrated to - both at the same time.

To draw an analogy from real life - I have just a few months ago completed my law degree. The University that I did the majority of my studies at, and which ultimately awarded me my degree, we’ll call University X. But I didn’t BEGIN my degree there - I did slightly less than half of it at University Y and then transferred to University X. To add to the complication, I ALSO did a particular subject of that degree, which no other university offered, at a third place, University Z.

So can I say that I am an alumnus of University X AND University Y AND University Z? Absolutely. There is no conflict in saying this. And it doesn’t mean that my ATTITUDE towards all three, or my level of involvement and/or affection for all three is precisely the same, even though I use precisely the same word to describe my relationship to all three. Sometimes language is imprecise like that, sometimes I just can’t be bothered explaining to outsiders the intricacies of my studies nor the exact nature and level of my relationship to each place.

Now IMHO worship would be if we consecrated ourselves to Mary as an end in itself - and if we thought that she alone was required for our salvation apart from Christ. And we don’t.
Does that mean then that you believe that Christ alone is required for your salvation - apart from Mary?
The thing is, we just don’t see her as EVER being apart from Christ. Never. Just as the wise men in Bethlehem found ‘the child together with His mother’, (well He was an infant and it would be usual for the mother to be with Him…but let’s not forget when Mary and Joseph were NOT with Him…for 3 days…when they had to go back and look for Him …and found Him already ‘going about His Father’s work’ in the temple…in fact He asked them why they were seeking Him…and they, both Mary and Joseph,didn’t understand Him when He explained He was ‘going about His Father’s business’…How in tune was Mary?) so we believe we will always find Him TOGETHER WITH her, and her together with Him. (My own analogy from real life - is that of my own son - who is 33 years of age - he goes about his business without my assistance or more importantly - his need of my assistance - he is quite capable of fullfilling all those obligations on his own - he has done the work and by his own efforts and sacrifices in his life, has accomplished what I could never do for those who go to him, in my capacity as his mother - I simply do not have the skills and if any should come to ME, praising me for what all that HE’s accomplished - and seeking through me or my efforts a closer relationship to him…I’d wonder first at how well they actually know him and I would be devastated to think that he was not getting the full honour that he so rightly deserves.) Not as equals, but inseparably together nonetheless. Just as bodily, His physical matter and hers were inseparably linked (I’m guessing you don’t want to argue that He had none of her genetic matter - He wouldn’t be truly human if He didn’t, neither would there be any point whatsoever to the Incarnation.)

Possibly the prayer doesn’t absolutely make this creaturehood and essentially inferior degree of any consecration to Mary explicit, but nor does it have to - any more than when you say ‘I’ll kill you!’ in anger to your husband you don’t need to explain to him or anyone else that you don’t LITERALLY iintend to do murder upon his person. Any more than when you kneel at your bedside you need to explain to anyone that you’re not actually praying to nor worshipping the bed as a deity, nor are you kneeling before it because you believe God resides therein.

Hi LilyM
I do understand what you are trying to say here…however by comparing a sacred prayer to that of an everday common statement, (which I’ve never used by the way…but have been tempted too many times…) just doesn’t seem to address the gravity of the situation.
Kind of like our analogies.

As for the “explicitness” of the prayer and the possibility of it not making clear the “inferior degree of any consecration to Mary”…well I think it’s pretty explicit…“my entire self”…“thy property and possession”…

Which brings to mind another question…if Mary and Jesus are inseparable, always together, then is it now:
The Father/The Son/The Son’s Mother/and The Holy Spirit?

 

[LilyM]

Does that mean then that you believe that Christ alone is required for your salvation - apart from Mary?

But He ISN’T apart from Mary! Like He isn’t apart from His left big toe! And He chose to use her as an essential instrument in His plan for salvation - why SHOULD we think salvation doesn’t happen BY His gracious gift and action, but in part THROUGH her, even if it isn’t her doing at all?

Well He was an infant and it would be usual for the mother to be with Him…but let’s not forget when Mary and Joseph were NOT with Him…for 3 days…when they had to go back and look for Him …and found Him already ‘going about His Father’s work’ in the temple…in fact He asked them why they were seeking Him…and they, both Mary and Joseph,didn’t understand Him when He explained He was ‘going about His Father’s business’…How in tune was Mary?)

And what WAS His Father’s business? Wasn’t the first order of that business, once He’d been found, to go straight back to Nazareth with them, and moreover submit Himself to them and be obedient to them? Imagine that - God SUBMITTING Himself and being obedient to a human!

You possibly think she can have been an ordinary human for God incarnate to submit Himself to her? And His Father’s business was then for Him to grow in grace and wisdom under her care and supervision - not just for a few years until His earliest opportunity of independence, but until He was 30.

No, Mary and Joseph didn’t always understand. And it’s lucky for us that our holiness, and our salvation, doesn’t depends on understanding, but on acceptance and belief. Otherwise we’d all be going to heck in a handbasket - since not a one of us has any hope of understanding God!

Even though there may have been things, being a creature, that Mary didn’t comprehend about her creator, she certainly was much more ‘in tune’ than you or I will ever be.

My own analogy from real life - is that of my own son - who is 33 years of age - he goes about his business without my assistance or more importantly - his need of my assistance - he is quite capable of fullfilling all those obligations on his own - he has done the work and by his own efforts and sacrifices in his life, has accomplished what I could never do for those who go to him, in my capacity as his mother - I simply do not have the skills and if any should come to ME, praising me for what all that HE’s accomplished - and seeking through me or my efforts a closer relationship to him…I’d wonder first at how well they actually know him and I would be devastated to think that he was not getting the full honour that he so rightly deserves.

Yes, a good mother makes sure honour always rightfully goes to her Son. So does Mary make us realise that everything we do in her honour really honours God through her, just as any praise or compliment paid to an artwork is really praise and compliments to the artist!

Being a daughter myself, although 35 rather than 33, I know that although physically independent, I am still extremely close spiritually and emotionally to my mother, for example I seek (and follow) her advice on a lot of things. (Hmmm, didn’t Jesus perform His first miracle ahead of its due time - at Mary’s request, following her advice as to the necessity and advisability of doing so?)

I also know that I could never be jealous of her, that I want her to have the highest possible honour, and would never resent anything by way of honour (short of being actually called divine or a Goddess) that anyone cared to give her - that nothing I’ve achieved would even be possible without her having borne and raised me.

Hi LilyM
I do understand what you are trying to say here…however by comparing a sacred prayer to that of an everday common statement, (which I’ve never used by the way…but have been tempted too many times…) just doesn’t seem to address the gravity of the situation.
Kind of like our analogies.

How is it graver than the many other ways in which, when we express our beliefs in language which is never 100% adequate for the purpose, we get misunderstood?

Are you saying that you have never had your beliefs misunderstood simply because language doesn’t perfectly express them? You certainly have - for one Muslims call you a polytheist because language can’t and doesn’t express the reality of the Trinity in such a way that they, having been brought up in a non-Trinitarian mindset, can understand. I can list several other Christian teachings that run into similar problems.

As for the “explicitness” of the prayer and the possibility of it not making clear the “inferior degree of any consecration to Mary”…well I think it’s pretty explicit…“my entire self”…“thy property and possession”…

What, like the ‘explicitness’ of the wedding vows which say ‘with my body I thee WORSHIP’??? All those idolatrous wedding ceremonies over the centuries - tsk tsk! Again, language is a wonderful but very imprecise and often very INexplicit thing.

Which brings to mind another question…if Mary and Jesus are inseparable, always together, then is it now:
The Father/The Son/The Son’s Mother/and The Holy Spirit?

No - no more than it’s
‘The Father/The Son/The Son’s pinky finger/and the Holy Spirit’. Mary, although an essential part of God’s plan and united in will with her Son, is CREATURE. Why do you have more problems, it seems, grasping the BIG difference between creature and creator than we supposedly idolatrous Catholics? Again, inseparable doesn’t mean that they are equal or the same.

 

[hays1122]

Personally, I think who ever started this thread should have just answered the question or “cleared the air” right off the bat.
How you ask?
By pointing out all the visions and miracles that have occurred.
Tell people right up front about how Mary herself appeared to many and instructed them to call her Mother, and to say the rosary many times. Everyone of the prayers about Mary are found in the witness testimonies.
Non-Catholics ask where did this (about Mary) come from, I don’t find it in the bible. Just direct them to the website where all these visions are covered.
I think it’s very interesting that this thread has gotten so many hits and Catholics answer with “we don’t worship Mary it’s adoration”
I can’t wait till I hear Father Corapi or one of the many other great speakers talk on this topic.
Why isn’t this information in the catechism. I got a copy of the catechism and didn’t find anything on these visions. Maybe that’s a whole other book I should be looking for.
I’ve said it before but I’ll say it again. I am very glad I found EWTN and this website.

 

[RobHom]

Leeann,

You posted this:

**"I appreciate your genuine and heart felt concern, especially when it has been offered so graciously…is this also some your “Catholic way” as you described above?

I believe there are others in this thread that I have been in discussion with on this topic….if you feel that you have answered my question sufficiently and have posted everything that you feel compelled to post……then I thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut and time taken.**

Now, if you happened to take umbrage to what I said previously, please read this cautiously and without inserting emotion.

You asked a question. I answered it. Others have answered it. It has been answered. Yet you still want to persist in trying to push the boulder up the mountain, as did Sisyphus.

I think I detected a little “snideness”, or was that an attempt to “condescend”? I made the point about you hijacking a snippet of scripture out of context, because that is precisely what you did. The context you placed it in had absolutely nothing relative to the origin of the passage. Its as wrong and silly as saying “money is the root of all evil”…which is an entirely wrong statement.

If by your other comment you were trying to allude to Catholic veneration of Mary as being “evil”, then I think you are very much out in left field…not to mention “wrong”. That you do not agree with the Catholic position where Mary is concerned is a problem that is yours.

If you choose to…you are free to expend as much energy as Sisyphus… or do this: :banghead: Its your life.

As to my “Catholic way”… Mmmmm, yes…and I have been very “charitable” and kind…actually. Far more charitable and kind than “Protestants” on their forums… The forum rules here require it. I abide by their rules.

Like I said, the “OP’s” question was answered. Move on.

 

[Leeann]

Leeann,

You posted this:

**"I appreciate your genuine and heart felt concern, especially when it has been offered so graciously…is this also some your “Catholic way” as you described above?

I believe there are others in this thread that I have been in discussion with on this topic….if you feel that you have answered my question sufficiently and have posted everything that you feel compelled to post……then I thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut and time taken.**

Now, if you happened to take umbrage to what I said previously, please read this cautiously and without inserting emotion.

You asked a question. I answered it. Others have answered it. It has been answered. Yet you still want to persist in trying to push the boulder up the mountain, as did Sisyphus.

I think I detected a little “snideness”, or was that an attempt to “condescend”? I made the point about you hijacking a snippet of scripture out of context, because that is precisely what you did. The context you placed it in had absolutely nothing relative to the origin of the passage. Its as wrong and silly as saying “money is the root of all evil”…which is an entirely wrong statement.

If by your other comment you were trying to allude to Catholic veneration of Mary as being “evil”, then I think you are very much out in left field…not to mention “wrong”. That you do not agree with the Catholic position where Mary is concerned is a problem that is yours.

If you choose to…you are free to expend as much energy as Sisyphus… or do this: :banghead: Its your life.

As to my “Catholic way”… Mmmmm, yes…and I have been very “charitable” and kind…actually. Far more charitable and kind than “Protestants” on their forums… The forum rules here require it. I abide by their rules.

Like I said, the “OP’s” question was answered. Move on.

Hi RobHorn

Would it be all right for me to answer LilyM…we are in the middle of discussing this topic still…of course if that’s all right with you…wouldn’t want to be too “emotional” about it or anything…and I’m sorry if your answer just wasn’t good enough, I know that might be astounding for you to comprehend, but there you have it.

 

[RobHom]

Hi RobHorn

Would it be all right for me to answer LilyM…we are in the middle of discussing this topic still…of course if that’s all right with you…wouldn’t want to be too “emotional” about it or anything…and I’m sorry if your answer just wasn’t good enough, I know that might be astounding for you to comprehend, but there you have it.

“Your true character starting to eke out…?”

 

[Mannyfit75]

Which brings to mind another question…if Mary and Jesus are inseparable, always together, then is it now:
The Father/The Son/The Son’s Mother/and The Holy Spirit?

That is a false misconception. Mary is not the Fourth Person of the Trinity. That itself is a heretical doctrine. The Catholic Church has never taught that.

I do like to note that when we are baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ, we become a member of family of God. Jesus is the Head of the Church. We are his body. This mystical Body of Christ include the prophets of old, the Patriarchs, and the saints both living and dead.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states gives a good explanation:

Para 2009 Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God’s gratuitous justice. This is our right by grace, the full right of love, making us “co-heirs” with Christ and worthy of obtaining “the promised inheritance of eternal life.” The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness. “Grace has gone before us; now we are given what is due. . . . Our merits are God’s gifts.”

“Us” is the Entire People of God. The Church and Her children.

Mary was always there with Jesus in the beginning of his life and to his end or ascension into heaven. She was always the faithful “handmaid of the Lord.” She was not “unfaithful” handmaid of the Lord.

Her unity with her son is due to her obedience to God’s calling by her FIAT, “Be it done onto me according to your word” and “Do whatever he tells you”

Each Christians has an important role for building up the Church, which Jesus Christ founded. Mary’s role is to bring God’s children closer to her son. She is the Mother of the Church. Like any mother, she wants what is best for her children. Mary seeks all mankind to be brought to Jesus Christ.

Mary have a much more personal relationship with Jesus than us. For one thing. She knows Jesus for 33 yrs, or should I say she knows her son for more than 2,000 yrs.

She was the proto-Christian. The first who accepted Jesus.

Many of the Early Church Fathers often describe Mary as the

1. Daughter of the God, the Father.
2. Spouse of the Holy Spirit, because through the Holy Spirit, Mary became pregnant with Jesus Christ.
3. Mother of God, Jesus, 2nd Person of the Trinity, or Theotokos.

She has a relationship with the Trinity much deeper sense than we can comprehend.

 

[Leeann]

Hi LilyM

But He ISN’T apart from Mary! Like He isn’t apart from His left big toe! And He chose to use her as an essential instrument in His plan for salvation - why SHOULD we think salvation doesn’t happen BY His gracious gift and action, but in part THROUGH her, even if it isn’t her doing at all.

Because His gracious gift and action was totally independent of Mary….the blood that was shed on the cross was HIS…and this is very clear in every gospel message that is preached……if it was “in part THROUGH her”….then the following passage would have read:

Rom 5 V8 - 11 (Douary Rheims online)

8 But God commendeth his charity towards us; because when as yet we were sinners, according to the time,
9 Christ died for us; much more therefore, being now justified by his blood, (and by Mary’s participation by saying yes when asked to be His mother) shall we be saved from wrath through him. (and in part through Mary).
10 For if, when we were enemies, **we were reconciled to God by **the death of his Son; much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.
11 And not only so; but also we glory in God, **through our Lord **Jesus Christ, (and through Mary) by whom we have now received reconciliation. (and in part through Mary because they are inseparable).

Lilym: And what WAS His Father’s business? Wasn’t the first order of that business, once He’d been found, to go straight back to Nazareth with them, and moreover submit Himself to them and be obedient to them? Imagine that - God SUBMITTING Himself and being obedient to a human!

You possibly think she can have been an ordinary human for God incarnate to submit Himself to her? And His Father’s business was then for Him to grow in grace and wisdom under her care and supervision - not just for a few years until His earliest opportunity of independence, but until He was 30.

No, Mary and Joseph didn’t always understand. And it’s lucky for us that our holiness, and our salvation, doesn’t depends on understanding, but on acceptance and belief. Otherwise we’d all be going to heck in a handbasket - since not a one of us has any hope of understanding God! Amen to that!!!

Do you think Mary was not an ordinary human being? What then of the human aspect of Jesus becoming man and once again, the example of her and Joseph having to go back and look for Him points out their ordinary humanity – if God incarnate would submit Himself to being born of a human that could misplace Him as a child – then I believe God incarnate would not have a problem of submitting Himself to that same human being.
As to the “grace and wisdom” that Jesus grew in……are you inferring that Mary was responsible for imbuing this “grace” and this “wisdom” to Him….she alone, under her care and supervision - which would no doubt include her own obvious limited, human understanding of things?

(cont’d next post)

 

[Leeann]

(cont’d)

Hi LilyM

Yes, a good mother makes sure honour always rightfully goes to her Son. So does Mary make us realise that everything we do in her honour really honours God through her, just as any praise or compliment paid to an artwork is really praise and compliments to the artist!

Except in the prayer I posted….there is no mention of God/Jesus/The Holy Spirit…it’s all “to Mary”.

Being a daughter myself, although 35 rather than 33, I know that although physically independent, I am still extremely close spiritually and emotionally to my mother, for example I seek (and follow) her advice on a lot of things. (Hmmm, didn’t Jesus perform His first miracle ahead of its due time - at Mary’s request, following her advice as to the necessity and advisability of doing so?)

What "advice as to the necessity and advisability of doing so”…???..Mary went to Jesus and said “They have no wine”.

**John 1:V3 – 5 **(Douay Rheims online)

3 And the wine failing, the mother of Jesus saith to him: **They have no wine. **
4 And Jesus saith to her: Woman, what is that to me and to thee? My hour is not yet come.
5 His mother saith to the waiters: Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye.

While Catholics refer to the importance of Mary’s contribution in relation to Jesus’ first miracle….it is interesting to note that her request was a very “human” one – a very “motherly” one as it fulfilled the need of saving face for the host at a wedding banquet. To the average onlooker, how much more indicative would it have been of the holiness and abundance of grace she is supposed to have had at that time - if her request for this first miracle had been that of a perhaps a seemingly more purposeful one – that of healing a blind or crippled person perhaps… however, IMHO, the “setting” of the wedding feast and the miracle of changing the water into wine by Jesus has a symbolic meaning, as one commentary indicates:

“The water pots were provided for Jewish rituals of purification, such as the washing of hands before meals. The master of the feast was the one in charge of providing food and drink. The joyful good wine of the gospel has replaced the water of Jewish legalism.”
Gene Miller, M.Div.,Ph.D, Assoc Prof of NT – Anderson School ofTheologyAffiliated with CTT (Christian Churches Together) a ecumenical group of which the Catholic church is a member.

The main reason, for the mentioning of this first miracle, is not to draw attention to Mary or her ability of being able to get her son to do things for her because of her relationship to Him ….but to establish “the beginning of signs” – as stated further on in the chapter :

11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee; and manifested his glory, and his disciples believed in him.

Nevertheless….I do love how her understanding and faith had grown more by the time of this wedding and is evident in her expectancy of knowing that her son was able to do something about the situation at hand. I don’t believe that she herself knew of the “symbolic” meaning that could be drawn from this event ….but I do believe that Jesus was aware of it and that is why He complied to this request. In this respect, I can truly say that I can and always have identified with Mary and her love for her son and her understanding that she had of His capabilities at that moment in time. Mary’s humanness, if anything makes me respect and identify with her.

I also know that I could never be jealous of her, that I want her to have the highest possible honour, and would never resent anything by way of honour (short of being actually called divine or a Goddess) that anyone cared to give her - that nothing I’ve achieved would even be possible without her having borne and raised me.

And this is admirable and attests that your mother is a wonderful woman and has raised a caring and considerate and rightfully grateful daughter.
However, I believe that Jesus would have been born and would have been raised, if not by Mary, by someone else and He would have achieved all that He set out to do, with or without her assistance or that of Joseph’s as His earthly “parents”…and He would indeed love and honour the wishes of His parents dutifully as He grew up and continue to respect and love them as He went about His mission here on earth and hold them in the highest regard and He would want others to respect them and love them also.