I'm getting tired of hearing from Protestants that we worship Mary and the saints!

[davidv]

No, a newborn inherits this sinful fallen world by birth.

only when they are sleeping!

(kidding)

OK. Then I will use another example:

Where Adam and Eve sinless before the “fall”?
Where they divine?

If the answer is yes in both cases. sinlessness does not equal divinity.

only when they are sleeping!

 

[justasking4]

sambos671;4304494]Catholics do pray to Mary. They don’t think she is divine. But they look at it like this.

I agree the church claims it does not claim Mary is divine but the things written about her show otherwise. Take this short hymn to her:

**Hail, Holy Queen Enthroned Above **

Hail, holy Queen enthroned above, O Maria.
Hail, Queen of mercy and of love, O Maria.
Triumph, all ye cherubim, Sing with us, ye seraphim,
Heaven and earth resound the hymn:
Salve, salve, salve Regina!
The cause of joy to men below, O Maria.
The spring through which all graces flow, O Maria.
Angels, all your praises bring, Earth and heaven, with us
sing,
All creation echoing:
Salve, salve, salve Regina!

This kind of hymn should only be said of Christ.

There is a pit you and I are saved out of the pit (sin) but Mary was stopped before she fell in so we are both saved by the same Jesus.

This sounds great and convincing but there is no evidence for this. Not one writer of the NT ever claims this of her and they were the ones who knew her best. Jesus never says such a thing about her and He of all would have known if this was the case.

Catholics pray to Mary because they believe she is still a part of the Body of Christ and had a better understanding of our needs and Gods will so prays accordingly.

Again this is a speculative claim. It was not Mary who promised to be with us to the end but the Lord Jesus. See Matthew 28:20

Do you think when you die and go to heaven your ministry will stop? Catholics say no it continues

.
There is no reason in Scripture that tells us this.

 

[adrift]

I agree the church claims it does not claim Mary is divine but the things written about her show otherwise. Take this short hymn to her:

Nope! Nothing in this hymn claims her to be a god. It hails her as our queen which of course she is. The mother of the king was always the queen. It seems so strange to me that a special relationship would not be seen by all. It really makes me feel sorry for your mothers. My mother was special because she was my mother. I would give her many honors when she was with me. I still honor her. Jesus would not have felt differently and I cannot see why He would fail to honor her.

 

[justasking4]

Nope! Nothing in this hymn claims her to be a god. It hails her as our queen which of course she is. The mother of the king was always the queen. It seems so strange to me that a special relationship would not be seen by all. It really makes me feel sorry for your mothers. My mother was special because she was my mother. I would give her many honors when she was with me. I still honor her. Jesus would not have felt differently and I cannot see why He would fail to honor her.

This hymn goes far beyond any special honor anyone would ever give their mothers. What is being claimed here is only to be given to God Himself.

Would you ever say this of your own mother:

Hail, enthroned above,
Hail, queen of mercy and of love,
Triumph, all ye cherubim, Sing with us, ye seraphim,
Heaven and earth resound the hymn:
Salve, salve, salve Regina!
The cause of joy to men below,
The spring through which all graces flow,
Angels, all your praises bring, Earth and heaven, with us
sing,
All creation echoing:
Salve, salve, salve Regina!

If someone to were to praise their mother with these words in your presence what would you think?

 

[justasking4]

RobGentner;4303277]**Pixie what a really nice thing to say:thumbsup: You are wrong, but it was nice of you to think that.
I think Fr John Corapi expressed it best when he said “All protestants are heretics” **
Huh? I thought the Catholic church referrred to Protestants as “separated brethern” and not heretics. Am i correct?

During your swim did they cover excommunication? If we don’t follow the beliefs of the Catholic Church we can be removed from the Body of christ. even if baptised. Some Protestants say they believe OSAS, but even they know that isn’t true! If we commit an grave or mortal sin, such as abortion , we automatically remove ourself from the body of Christ. Do you agree with that? You can look it up if you desire. I wouldn’t lie to you.

If you have been baptized in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, you are a christian. not necessary member of any Church. Yes, everyone could be saved through the authority of the Catholic Church and yes there are more that “Roman” Catholics" in the Catholic Church. We consider them all brothers. They are “real” Catholic, just as we are. Some of our beliefs differ but not the ones that decide if you are saved or not. Like with the Heritics! The heretics can’t be saved without the mercy of the Catholic Church because God gave His Church the authority to tie or untie sins her on earth. Yes, even heresy! Praise to God! As they stand now all 59,999 christian denominations that go against God’s real church and may be damned even though they have been baptised. Why some of them never ate The Body or drank the Blood of Jesus as He personally commanded that they must do to have eternal life~:tsktsk: . How could they realy expect to be saved Bu denying that Jesus said that? He commanded them to do it and because of being blinded by the devil they refuse to believe it even though they read it. How foolish is that?

Where in the Scriptures do we find that a person must beong to a church to be saved? If there is such a verse where is it identified as the Roman Catholic church?

Now I know it seems harsh, and you want to be nice. Because you are a nice person. That is commendable! :flowers: That is not really charitable, I don’t think it is fair to them. I believe that
God wants us to try and get them to realize that they are wrong. To help them be saved to eternal life! Their salvation depends on it! We are not being correct if we say that they are saved when in fact they were called but did not answered Jesus. They probably won’t be recognized by Jesus later. He said that in the Bible. I really try not to judge anyone, that isn’t my job. We have to leave that to God and His mercy to perhaps forgive their rejection of His Church here on earth. :dts:
I think my job is just to attempt to open their eyes the best I can, and to love them. No matter what they call themselves , or how very close to the devil they may be because of their false beliefs, they still deserve our love!
God Bless

 

[RobGentner]

**Huh? I thought the Catholic church referrred to Protestants as “separated brethern” and not heretics. Am i correct? **

**HAHAHA! :extrahappy: NOPE! Of course not, JA4! Boy that was easy. Thanks! OK I will explain. AZttempt to stay up with me OK?

Your question is simular to someone asking “I thought the Catholic Church referred to Protestants as “Sons of Vipers” or “Children of the Devil” or even “Separated Brethern” Am I correct?”

Partially, but that doesn’t mean Protestants can’t also be Heretics.does it? Why look at Jesus. He referred to the Pharisees as Hypocrites, Snakes, Sons of Vipers! - Matthew 23. ( Oh my gosh! I just noticed some similarities! )

No Protestants do not follow the “true” church.:tsktsk: That makes everyonein addition to anything else **“Heretics”.
I suppose we could call you “Fish” if we desired. What different would that make? You are what you are! One word use to accurately describe you doesn’t prohib you from also being something else does it?
You are wrong! Your belief are wrong! I am sorry, there isn’t any getting around it by attempting to sugarcoating what you actually are. :frighten: I pray for all of you.:console: I love you therefore it would be wrong not to correct you. I owe that to you!

Where in the Scriptures do we find that a person must beong to a church to be saved? If there is such a verse where is it identified as the Roman Catholic church?

**
Sorry!:bighanky: Question asked and answered many times by many people. I don’t play those games. :tsktsk:
You already know that answer. You reject the answer.
You are wrong. We both realize that! The RCC knows that and sorry to tell you, most importantly ,God knows that and in the Bible He tells you of your “reward”. Hint: It isn’t eternal happiness!

Now Go play with someone else! I gave you all the time I desire today.

God Bless, Good day! Don’t be a stranger!**

 

[Peter_J]

If there is such a verse where is it identified as the Roman Catholic church?

So basically, you’re looking for a bible verse that says “In the year 2008, the Church will be identified as the communion of Christians who are in full communion with Joseph Ratzinger (who will then be known as Pope Benedict XVI)”?

 

[hays1122]

Robgentner, I pray for you too.
Who convinced you that the Roman Catholic church is the “true church”?
I’d be curious to know just how long you’ve been a catholic.
The reason I ask is because I was born and raised outside the catholic church. It’s not my fault that I am afraid to my core to have anything to do with the catholic church.
I’m here to learn about your church. I don’t appreciate being condemned to hell by you.
You are being insensitive,rude and arrogant.
When you write,“No Protestants do not follow the “true” church. That makes everyone in addition to anything else “Heretics”.
You are wrong! Your belief are wrong! I am sorry, there isn’t any getting around it by attempting to sugarcoating what you actually are.”
I haven’t even heard the Pope talk like that.

 

[Scientiphic]

Nope! Nothing in this hymn claims her to be a god. It hails her as our queen which of course she is. The mother of the king was always the queen. It seems so strange to me that a special relationship would not be seen by all. It really makes me feel sorry for your mothers. My mother was special because she was my mother. I would give her many honors when she was with me. I still honor her. Jesus would not have felt differently and I cannot see why He would fail to honor her.

Thanks for highlighting this. Which means Mary is NOT good.

Mark 10:18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.

.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

I agree the church claims it does not claim Mary is divine but the things written about her show otherwise. Take this short hymn to her:

**Hail, Holy Queen Enthroned Above **

Hail, holy Queen enthroned above, O Maria.
Hail, Queen of mercy and of love, O Maria.
Triumph, all ye cherubim, Sing with us, ye seraphim,
Heaven and earth resound the hymn:
Salve, salve, salve Regina!
The cause of joy to men below, O Maria.
The spring through which all graces flow, O Maria.
Angels, all your praises bring, Earth and heaven, with us
sing,
All creation echoing:
Salve, salve, salve Regina!

This kind of hymn should only be said of Christ.

Actually, that hymn is saying something about Christ. “All graces flow” to us from Christ, who came to earth by way of Mary’s womb. That’s what that line is saying, not that she is the source of grace, but that Christ (grace) came to us because she said, “Behold I am the handmaid of the Lord, let it be done to me according to thy word.” to the Angel Gabriel when he visited her and gave her the message that she would bear God Incarnate.

 

[RobGentner]

So basically, you’re looking for a bible verse that says “In the year 2008, the Church will be identified as the communion of Christians who are in full communion with Joseph Ratzinger (who will then be known as Pope Benedict XVI)”?

**
Hi Pete, :tiphat:
I think that book is being written by the Benedictian monks right now. The Dominicans wrote the last three new books and said they aren’t going to write The Book of George.:bounce: Remember what the Pope said, don’t tell the Protestants! :tsktsk: You know how they like to borrow our stuff. They never give anything back!

And actually SA4 would find fault if that was written in a verse of the bible. He would say it didn’t mean that! **

 

[RobGentner]

Thanks for highlighting this. Which means Mary is NOT good.

Mark 10:18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.

.

**
Finally, I can utterly agree with you Scientiphic. I also agree with what Jesus said: "No one is good—except God alone. Now I am sure you realize that in the “No Good” catagory there are four classes:

Just No good = Mary
Worse than Just No good = All Catholics
The worse of the worse No good (You knew this one = Protestants!

No Scientiphic, JA4 it isn’t in the bible. Let’s just say I have a feeling? Like when you protestants "know you are corrrect!’ Hahahaha…eeeeerrrr:extrahappy:

You guys are so funny!

God Bless**

 

[Pixie_Dust]

**Pixie, As stated 100% of what you said is correct. I applaude you. :clapping: The only minor thing I might argue with you was about is the " may not qualify as formal heretics" remark. I am sorry, they are heretics/ There isn’t gray in this matter. You are still trying to be nice. My dear, that isn’t a sin! We need nice people!

God Bless. and remember no only to be kind. But atempt to help out brothers and sisters find the River!**

They may hold to heretical beliefs, but again, that is not necessarily their fault. A heretic in the truest sense of the word knows the true teachings of the Catholic Church and rejects them for another faith tradition. Yes, we can preach the truth in love, clear up misconceptions, and educate those who have ears to hear; and pray that the Holy Spirit leads them 'cross the Tiber. I just happen to believe that name-calling is not an effective way to do this.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Any organization or individual for that matter, that claims that they alone have the sole right to God’s word and its interpretation is either lying and has been corrupted as you say by “religious error” and is being misled by the devil - or is a fool.:sad_yes:

And anyone that claims that the Catholic church, as we know it today, is the one true church that Jesus established, has indeed been blinded by a LOT of “religious error”, as is evident when some of their adherents are confused about the teachings and dogmas that have been instituted over the centuries, in some cases to the point of placing all their faith and focus on Mary, and their “implicit faith” in the “Church”…instead of on God….where it should be.

The Catholic Church is the Church that Jesus established. Lutherans, Presbyterians, Methodists, Baptists, etc…came into being about 1500+ years too late to be the Church founded by Christ and His Apostles. It’s not a point of pride, it’s historical fact. A historical fact that this staunchly “Landmark” Baptist girl couldn’t argue with and gave me my first nudge towards coversion.

No Catholic places all of their faith and focus on Mary, we know full well she’s not divine. In fact, we are forbidden to worship anyone but God. To do so places us outside the true Faith. We ask Mary to pray for us because we believe her to be a powerful prayer warrior, alongside the other saints who offer prayers before the throne of God in Heaven.

You seem to have some misunderstandings about the Catholic Church and I hope and pray that you check out the Library at Catholic Answers (linked at the top of this page), and the Catholic Bridge to help you understand that the Catholicism you seem to be so very opposed to is not true Catholicism, but a caricature. If I can help any, feel free to PM me.

 

[Cinette]

Hi Folks!

I came across something pertinent and very interesting. I have also posted this elsewhere.

St Irenaeus of Lyons (AD189) - “But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the successions of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious Apostles, Peter and Paul – that church which has the Tradition and which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. For with this Church, because of its superior origin, all churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world. And it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the Apostolic Tradition.” (Against Heresies 3:3:2)

St Irenaeus of Lyons - “Since therefore we have such proofs, it is not necessary to seek the truth among others which it is easy to obtain from the Church; since the Apostles, like a rich man (depositing his money) in a bank, lodged in her hands most copiously all things pertaining to the truth, so that every man, whosoever will, can draw from her the water of life……For how stands the case? Suppose there arise a dispute relative to some important questions among us, should we not have recourse to the most ancient churches with which the apostles held constant conversation, and learn from them what is certain and clear in regard to the present questions? It is incumbent to obey the presbyters who are in the Church – those who, as I have shown, possess the succession from the apostles; those who, together with the succession of the episcopate, have received the infallible charism of truth, according to the good pleasure of the Father. But (it is also incumbent) to hold in suspicion others who depart from the primitive succession and assemble themselves together in any place whatsoever, either as heretics of perverse minds, or as schismatics puffed up and self-pleasing, or again as hypocrites, acting thus for the sake of lucre and vainglory. For all these have fallen from the truth” (Against Heresies 4:26:2)

These quotes were found in “Why Is That in Tradition?” by Patrick Madrid. Excellent resource.

 

[RobGentner]

** This hymn goes far beyond any special honor anyone would ever give their mothers.** I will type slowly. Mary is the Mother of the RCC. If we honored her with that song it would be the special honor that we gave her. So that makes you WRONG! Doesn’t it?What is being claimed here is only to be given to God Himself.**Well, thats is one wrong opinion! Are there any others? How about you Scientiphic? **

**Would you ever say this of your own mother:

Hail, enthroned above,
Hail, queen of mercy and of love,
Triumph, all ye cherubim, Sing with us, ye seraphim,
Heaven and earth resound the hymn:
Salve, salve, salve Regina!
The cause of joy to men below,
The spring through which all graces flow,
Angels, all your praises bring, Earth and heaven, with us
sing, All creation echoing:
Salve, salve, salve Regina!

If someone to were to praise their mother with these words in your presence what would you think?**

** One of three things: They had seen Sister Act? or that they were over 300 years old ,we don’t talk that way anymore or finally that they loved their Mother!**!

** Now answer one for me: What do you think of Jesus Star Superstar with Ted Neeley, a Protestant? You guys must be so Proud of that work of art! Now it that isn’t praising Jesus what is?

Isn’t Mary GREAT??? God Bless her and may we always keep her name on our lips

God Bless all of you. **

 

[I_am_Me]

**
Finally, I can utterly agree with you Scientiphic. I also agree with what Jesus said: "No one is good—except God alone.** Now I am sure you realize that in the “No Good” catagory there are four classes:

Just No good = Mary
Worse than Just No good = All Catholics
The worse of the worse No good (You knew this one = Protestants!

No Scientiphic, JA4 it isn’t in the bible. Let’s just say I have a feeling? Like when you protestants "know you are corrrect!’ Hahahaha…eeeeerrrr:extrahappy:

You guys are so funny!

God Bless

You know what i dont need a label like protestant or catholic. I have what i need and that is Jesus my savior. Your comments are very rude. We both love Christ cant we treat each other the way Jesus would have us too with love? I had always thought the catholic church had some wonderful and loving people in it .This board is an eye opener for me. Its heart breaking on both sides when we treat each other this way.Deb

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

You know what i dont need a label like protestant or catholic. I have what i need and that is Jesus my savior. Your comments are very rude. We both love Christ cant we treat each other the way Jesus would have us too with love? I had always thought the catholic church had some wonderful and loving people in it .This board is an eye opener for me. Its heart breaking on both sides when we treat each other this way.Deb

What do these verses mean to you?

Matthew 18

17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Luke 10
16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

John 20
21Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

1 Timothy 3
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

2 Thes 2
15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

Matthew 16

17Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

 

[RobGentner]

They may hold to heretical beliefs, but again, that is not necessarily their fault.**Fault is not the issue Pixie:tsktsk: ** A heretic in the truest sense of the word knows the true teachings of the Catholic Church and rejects them for another faith tradition. **Now you made that up! :sad_bye:
There is no source for: “A heretic in the truest sense of…” Oh, sorry Pixie, I have been around these Heretics so long, I am even starting to think like them …MEDIC!I:frighten:
**Yes, we can preach the truth in love, clear up misconceptions, and educate those who have ears to hear; and pray that the Holy Spirit leads them 'cross the Tiber.
**:hug3: Yes, as we should do! **
I just happen to believe that name-calling is not an effective way to do this.

** Pixie! I so agree with you and I wish they would stop do it! Darn Heretics! **

 

[Cinette]

You know what i dont need a label like protestant or catholic. I have what i need and that is Jesus my savior. Your comments are very rude. We both love Christ cant we treat each other the way Jesus would have us too with love? I had always thought the catholic church had some wonderful and loving people in it .This board is an eye opener for me. Its heart breaking on both sides when we treat each other this way.Deb

I don’t know how long you have been visiting these threads but Rob is really very loving.

But when you get an itch and it gets more itchy you begin to scratch it. That is all he is doing. :yup: