I'm leaving Catholicism

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“Would that make God a mere man?”
Because Father said that Jesus is his Son, yet Jesus said he is son of “a man”.
Yes, the holy spirit IS the power of God - His active force which is manifested through the 7 spirits of God.
That makes God composite much more than Trinity would…
Of course he was just a man as every other man is when born of a woman.
He was a Messiah, yet John the Baptist was greatest of those who have come from woman. That means either of two things;
  1. Jesus did not come from woman.
  2. John the Baptist was greater than Jesus.
Which one do you believe it is?
 
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The Trinity doctrine developed from a power struggle between Arius and Athanasius. Arius was non-trinitarian and Athanasius - largely developed Trinitarianism.
Completely incorrect. Trinitarianism was a common belief in the early Church, and the council was called because of a struggle between the heretic Arius and his bishop, St. Alexander of Alexandria. St. Athanasius was a prominent figure, yes, but the Trinitarians were lead by St. Alexander himself. There was no politics involved here, nobody stood to gain by putting their theological opponents down. In the end, the Nicene Creed was ratified by a massive majority of those in attendance. Oh, and one last thing? Christianity was not the state religion of Rome under Constantine. That’s an old misunderstanding. One your falsehoods rely on to sound reasonable.

Your entire post was filled with lies. Do better.
 
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Before you leave:
  1. Inability to understand does not affect truth - only one’s perception of it.
  2. Words and arguments fail to convince.
  3. Please pray for enlightenment.
  4. The Holy Spirit will convict you of truth - if given the chance.
If you leave:
  1. The lights will be on for you.
  2. Know that, both now and later, many are praying for you, so valuable are you to the Lord God.
 
If Jesus was not fully God and fully man from his conception, then his death on the cross was merely an execution and we do not have any salvation. Only a God-man’s sacrifice would be sufficient atonement for the sins of the world. A mere man cannot do it.

The Holy Spirit is a Person, not a force. Holy Spirit a Person, Not a Force | Catholic Answers
 

This means that a real distinction between the persons is a distinction in being, which has to turn God into an act/potency composite, which could not be God (since he is Pure Act)
The unique contribution of Saint Thomas Aquinas was separation of the two notions of form and act. Also universal hylomorphism provides a way to distinguish the simplicity of God from simplicity of angelic or intellectual beings since God is pure form, whereas angelic or intellectual beings are composed of spiritual matter and form.
 
i’m sorry you’ve joined those who in many different ways claim, “well since i can’t understand it must not be true”. God is and always will
be a Mystery to us humans and the Holy Trinity has often been
attacked throughout history just for that reason–we cannot understand the ways of God because we are humans and not gods.
if we spent as much time growing in our faith, seeking humility
and obedience and all the other virtues we would be welcoming God’s mysteries into our lives, because it is not so easy.
God loves us more than we realize and His love for you—well
i’m sure He’ll be shedding a tear or tears if you leave. i hope
that you may see that the evil one is rejoicing while our Lord
is crying.
 
that’s when Jesus became God.

Im afraid not.
  1. Jesus was always God. No act of any council can create or negate that fact.
  2. The earliest statement of this fact was in John Chapter 1 which states “the Word was God… and the Word became flesh.”
 
The unique contribution of Saint Thomas Aquinas was separation of the two notions of form and act.
??? This isn’t true. Act and form were concepts that Aquinas got from Aristotle.
Also universal hylomorphism provides a way to distinguish the simplicity of God from simplicity of angelic or intellectual beings since God is pure form, whereas angelic or intellectual beings are composed of spiritual matter and form
I’m guessing you take Bonaventure’s view that angels have “spiritual matter.” For the Thomist, this is absurd because immateriality means to lack matter. So, in Aquinas’ view, Angels are pure form, but in Angels there is still a distinction between essence and existence, and thus between act and potency, whereas in God that is not distinct.

Nothing you’ve said directly refutes what I said. In fact, I don’t even understand how they are related
 
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Inability to understand does not affect truth - only one’s perception of it.
Yes. Wow. It is not false that there are married bachelors. It’s only that you don’t understand. clap clap clap
Words and arguments fail to convince.
What do you mean by this?
  1. Please pray for enlightenment.
  2. The Holy Spirit will convict you of truth - if given the chance.
If you leave:
  1. The lights will be on for you.
  2. Know that, both now and later, many are praying for you, so valuable are you to the Lord God.
All of this is, once again, presupposing that what you take to be the Divine Revelation is true, which is what I’m arguing against
 
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(Your brain on Sensus Fidelium youtube videos)
 
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Yes, you’re right; I see I made a few mistakes in what I said. I’m no philosopher, and as we’re celebrating the national holiday in my country today I’m not entirely focused on this discussion. I’ll try to reaffirm my basic position.
If you agree that God’s simple existence is personal, or that it is personhood, then it would have to follow that there could not be a multiplicity in persons
I agree that God is personal, and I agree that Gods Simple Existence is the Person(s). I don’t agree that there can’t be several Persons because I don’t think a Personhood is its own entity. What I mean by that is that I think the Entity is God, and the Personhood derives its existence from that and it is that Entity. To put it vulgarly, the Personhood is the personification of Gods Essence. If one such Personification can exist, then so can three; provided they are perfectly the same. But if there is three, then they cannot be perfectly equal; since a person always forms relationships to other persons they are in contact with, and so we have three perfectly united Persons of the same Essence differentiated by their relationships to each other.
Now, personhood as defined by the Aristotelian-Thomistic tradition, is a rational nature , specifically, an intellect and a will. What this means is that for there to be a multiplicity in persons entails multiple intellects and wills,
Which comes first, the person or the rational nature? If the Intellect and Will is first and drives us to define their combination as a Person it is perfectly possible to define another Person from the same rational nature. These Persons would initially only be distinguished logically, but once the logical distinction is made by one of the involved Persons a real relationship ensues between them and the distinction is now real.

If the Person is first then it is as you say, a different person would have to define a different Intellect and Will (and thus existence).
If you deny that any of these are causing the other in God, then aren’t you denying the very concept of a definable Personhood in Him? I don’t mean this last one rhetorically, by the way, I am not well read on this subject and I don’t have time right now to think about what a “both, and” position would really entail.
 
Ok, just off the top of my head, a person is any being with the potential for rational thought. Rational thought being the capacity to make decisions, ask questions, etc.
 


Nothing you’ve said directly refutes what I said. In fact, I don’t even understand how they are related
My supports your post that there is no composite of act and potency in God. There is an earlier post I made that you did not comment on that addresses another concern of yours with composition.

Summa Theologiae > First Part > Question 50 The substance of the angels absolutely considered
Article 2. Whether an angel is composed of matter and form?
Reply to Objection 3. Although there is no composition of matter and form in an angel, yet there is act and potentiality. …
The second sentence is not from Aquinas who did not adopt universal hylomorphism – which is a Neoplatonic idea (Avicebron), but also Bonaventure favored it. Saint Augustine also speaks of spiritual matter (Confessions XII.17.25).

The reference for “The unique contribution of Saint Thomas Aquinas was separation of the two notions of form and act.” is : Etienne Gilson, Being and Some Philosophers, 2nd Edition (Toronto: Pontifical Institute of Mediaeval Studies, 1952), 174.
But Thomas Aquinas could not posit esse as the act of existence of a substance itself actualized by form without making a decision which, with respect to the metaphysics of Aristotle, was nothing less than a revolution. He had precisely to achieve the dissociation of the two notions of form and act. This is precisely what he has done and what probably remains, even today, the greatest contribution ever made by any single man to the science of being.
Real distinction is not the same as real difference. Saint Thomas Aquinas uses Aristotle’s idea of relation. It does not import composition. Relation doe not need to denote a property allaying different substances, but can refer to distinctions that are internal to a substance.
 
I did. If formal distinctions are incoherent, then I shouldn’t have any reason to use it when thinking about the Trinity.
Ed Feser saying it’s so doesn’t an incoherence make (although I am, admittedly, a fan of his). He’s just towing the Thomistic line here, but I can’t blame him. I tow a lot of Thomistic lines too… It is very likely that an insistence on a “real” distinction between the divine Persons lends itself to such troublesome issues as the ones you’ve enumerated here.
I might have to read more into these arguments, but the Aristotelian-Thomistic understanding of personhood is that a person is a being with a rational nature (an intellect and a will).
So far, so good. But, if we think deeply about being a human, we arrive quite naturally at the conclusion that everyone exists as a person in relation to others. As John Donne accurately put it, “no man is an island.” At the very, very beginning of your life, your “self” (identity, mind, etc) is wrapped up in (at a minimum) that of your “mother.” The mother-child relation is the vehicle through which you develop at all, and your two selves become entangled and co-identified, in point of fact. Since humans uniquely among the animals are born with so very little instinct, infants are utterly dependent on the mother for, not merely survival, but for everything, to include coming to know the world around them. And this entire child-rearing process initiates a sustained relationhood-of-persons that never ceases to be. Your mother quite literally and indelibly forms your “self” (and you do the same to her)… Anyway, I have written about this in sustained detail in an older thread. If you’re curious, I direct you there.
 
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Ok, just off the top of my head, a person is any being with the potential for rational thought. Rational thought being the capacity to make decisions, ask questions, etc.
Great! But see how you’ve already contradicted @Theban who removed the “being” requirement from personhood in order to avoid the contradiction @TheDefaultMan pointed out?
I hold that a person is not an entity on its own, it is an aspect of an independently defined being.
So if you want to stick with the “a person is a being” requirement let me know and we can go from there!
 
a person is any being with the potential for rational thought…how is this removing the being requirement lol?

there is no contradiction.
 
a person is any being with the potential for rational thought…how is this removing the being requirement lol?

there is no contradiction.
As I said, Theban is the one who removed the being requirement, in order to avoid a contradiction. I suggest reviewing the context in which he removed it to see the contradiction he was avoiding. But if you want to stick with “A being” that’s fine.
 
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I am not Theban, I don’t even know who that is or where his comment is. I stand by what I said. You however have not provided any definition as to why my statement is false. The only thing you’ve done is say that I’m wrong without supporting it.
 
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