I'm not a Catholic because

[pablope]

CopticChristian;8502173:

You still haven’t addressed as to why Catholics still bow and worship to statues of Mary in the 20th century as my link clearly shows. As for the link you’ve provided:shrug:, it proves nothing.

Bowing does not mean worship…a devout catholic deep in prayer may bow their head in church…a sign of humility before God. There may be a statue nearby…but it does not mean he is worshipping the statue.

You are seeing externals…and you are seeing or implying something wrong with bowing…which seems to indicate that all you see is evil.

When the British bow or curtsy before the Queen of England…does that mean they are worshipping her?

 

[joe370]

The Pine Cone was a pagan symbol of fertility/ the all seeing eye dates back to Egyptian mythos. They are all related to the Catholic Church because you can find all of these in cathedrals across the world. As well as many other forms of ancient pagan worship.

Of course we both agree that the Pine Cone is not a pagan symbol of fertility to the CC - right? Nor does the CC embrace silly Egyptian mythos- right?

The CC is all about worshiping Jesus the Christ. The CC teaches nothing about those silly forms of ancient pagan worship.

 

[fbl9]

I can understand expecially with the papal infallibility and the celibate priesthood as these are things that I find hard about the faith.

…snip.

For without it the Church would be blowing in the breeze. With papal infabllibilty God has given me a sure guide.
For example without papal infallibility how can you be certain of the consecration of the host?

 

[joe370]

Welcome to the thread Prodigal! And Telestia, if you too find these issues difficult, then this response is for you too. Tackling these one at a time…

Papal infallibility: it may be helpful to read the conversation I have been having with dingodile on this subject in this very thread.

Marian dogmas:
-Immaculate Conception and sinlessness: Luke 1:28.
Mary is “full of grace” and “the Lord is with you”. Not partially graced, but fully graced. If you were full of grace, would you a) ever be in sin or b) ever have any desire to go against the will of God? It is only fitting that our Lord be conceived, developed, and born from the purest of wombs.

-Perpetual Virginity: Luke 1:34.
Mary’s questioning of the angel of how she might conceive would be preposterous had she not been and intending to remain a virgin. Anyone who is engaged knows exactly how one will be able to conceive in the near future. And the fact that Jesus gives Mary to the apostle John (John 19:26-27) indicates that there were no other siblings to entrust the care of His mother to.

-Assumption into Heaven, Queen of Heaven, Mother of the Faithful: Revelation 12
Who is the woman who gave birth to the “male child, destined to rule all the nation with an iron rod” if not Mary? And who but a queen wears a crown? And she is there is bodily form (stars under her feet), and the rest of her offspring are “those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus” (v. 17). Bear in mind Revelation was written by John, the same John who Jesus gave Mary to.

Marian Apparitions: Because if “every fact may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses” according to Jesus (Mt 18:16), how much more 70,000+ witnesses in the 20th century (Our Lady of Fatima) ewtn.com/fatima/apparitions/October.htm

"Dogmas About Relics": Matthew 9:20-22, Acts 5:15-16, Acts 19:11-12
Physical objects can be a means of grace.

Purgatory: Matthew 12:32 (implies that there are sins that can be forgiven “in the age to come”), Luke 17:19-31 (Jesus hadn’t risen, so Abraham and Lazarus are not in heaven, and the rich man is clearly in hell), 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 (salvation only after purification), 2 Maccabees 12:38-46 (unfortunately, the book was removed from the Bible by Luther, largely on account of this passage), 1 Peter 3:19-20 (“the spirits in prison”: not hell, for what good would preaching to damned souls do; not heaven, because heaven isn’t prison), Revelation 21:27 (nothing unclean enters heaven, period. Whether it be instantaneous or a drawn-out process, there is a step that purifies someone’s imperfections between death and entry into heaven).

The Celibate Priesthood: Jesus was celibate, and the priest acts in persona Christi, the person of Christ. They also model the call of St. Paul (also celibate): 1 Corinthians 7:25-38, see especially the end of v. 38.

Indulgences: 1 Peter 4:8, James 5:20, and 2 Corinthians 2:5-11 in reference to 1 Corinthians 5:3-5.

Hope that helps. Any questions?

Awesome post.

 

[joe370]

David89;8502205:

miztyz you quoted the following:

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth"

Catholics do not worship graven images or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. My mom, every Christmas, (just as my protestant relatives do) - pulls out her nativity set comprised of statues. What’s wrong with that?

 

[CopticChristian]

miztyzo562;8502218:

Catholics do not worship graven images or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. My mom, every Christmas, (just as my protestant relatives do) - pulls out her nativity set comprised of statues. What’s wrong with that?

You all may want to visit this website and listen to the long video on Easter where you will see where this nonsense about pine cones, etc comes from. You will also see the use of “yeshua”. I think I cracked the code.

What we have here is a follower of Jim Staley.

passion-for-truth.com/sta…of-beliefs.htm

We may want to ask miztyzo562 if we should celebrate Easter or Christmas?

 

[pablope]

miztyzo562;8502218:

Catholics do not worship graven images or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. My mom, every Christmas, (just as my protestant relatives do) - pulls out her nativity set comprised of statues. What’s wrong with that?

And how about those who go to the Washington Monument…the Lincoln Memorial or Mount Rushmore?

 

[joe370]

joe370;8502376:

You all may want to visit this website and listen to the long video on Easter where you will see where this nonsense about pine cones, etc comes from. You will also see the use of “yeshua”. I think I cracked the code.

What we have here is a follower of Jim Staley.

passion-for-truth.com/sta…of-beliefs.htm

We may want to ask miztyzo562 if we should celebrate Easter or Christmas?

I;ll check it out Coptic…

I just tried but the link doesn’t open…

 

[CopticChristian]

CopticChristian;8502387:

I;ll check it out Coptic…

I just tried but the link doesn’t open…

Passion for Truth in the non-catholic forums on this site you will see a posting.

getridofeaster.com/

passion-for-truth.com/statement-of-beliefs.htm

Go to Non-Catholic Forums. bbarrick8383 put up these links to the site. The first of the two will explain all the pine cone stuff. It is a non-denominational site, Protestant, with a new look at get rid of everything and get in the Word.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=610344

It does not open when you copy. You can open it up from bbarrick’s post above or just look for Jim Staley, Passion for Truth, and add get rid of Easter…you’ll find the kook.

 

[miztyzo562]

miztyzo562;8502189:

Bowing does not mean worship/why don’t you go through word for word at the Catechism of the Catholic Church

Again the Scriptures are clear, “Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me”.

 

[miztyzo562]

miztyzo562;8502189:

In your opinion it proves nothing. You refuse to acknowledge that the Catholic Church does not teach Mary worship. I have no idea what your Protestant mind wants to prove to you that Catholics do not worship Mary. So you are comparing what Paul is telling the Judaizing Christians why God does what he does.We may want to ask miztyzo562 if we should celebrate Easter or Christmas?

Exactly how does it prove anything?? My link clearly shows masse’s bowing to a statue of Mary, yet you still refuse to admit this is going on. And how is it that you derive that I’m protestant??
I dont agree with them either, nor modern Judaism.

If you can’t pick up on the contradictory teachings of Paul, then it would be no surprise to me that you couldnt realize this is the “Non Catholic Religions thread” and cared to comment on a post titled “I’m not a Catholic because” which would clarify that Non Catholics exist on this site, hence negating your inquiry as to why I’m here.

Interesting thing about Christmas, does the scriptures allude to a December birth? Funny thing is the only birth on record for any diety on December 25th is Mithras.

 

[PJM]

***My Dear friends in Christ;

Here is evidence that two wrongs don’t make it right***: RIGHT

Originally Posted by Heuchler
I can understand expecially with the papal infallibility and the celibate priesthood as these are things that I find hard about the faith.

***My dear friend, if you really wish to understand this issue about Peter, the Pope an Primacy; PLEASE visit my BLOG. You will find thre all of the inforforamtion there needed to both be informed and be exposed to Gods own Truth.:***thumbsup:

THE REPLY [not mine PJM]
***My Dear friends in Christ;

Here is evidence that two wrongs don’t make it right***: RIGHT

Originally Posted by Heuchler
I can understand expecially with the papal infallibility and the celibate priesthood as these are things that I find hard about the faith.

***My dear friend, if you really wish to understand this issue about Peter, the Pope an Primacy; PLEASE visit my BLOG. *You will find there all of the inforforamtion needed to both be informed and be exposed to Gods own Truth.:**thumbsup:

THE REPLY [not mine PJM]
The Papal infallibility is just something you have to come to terms with. My suggestion is to look at the Pope’s writings on the faith (as only that is infallible) and see if you can find an error. Really infallibility is about the same as coming to believe the Bible is infallible.

Yes, Papal infallibility, a Catholic Doctrine that goes all the way back to the 19th Century, I choose to establish my Christianity on the Bible alone, and in context given. And if you wish to believe in Papal Infallibility, that is your right to do so. I will not Judge you on it. That is between you and God. In my view, only God is infallible, and all humans that ever lived are sinners continually, myself included. And God has given us great compassion and grace.

1 Jn 1:5-10
This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin

***There are several critical points to be made in response to these two post.

1. The Pope need not speak infallibly to have the teaching have mandatory obedience and acceptance. It need only be an OFFICIAL TEACHING from Rome on either of two broad topics. Either what MUST be believed on ANY and ALL faith matters; and what must be believed on all Moral issues.

In regards it is a SPIRITUAL IMPOSSIBILITY that the Pope, or the Bishops in communion with him [the Ordinary Magisterium] can do so and not be sharing Gods desired teaching.***

Mt. 16:18-19 “[18] And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."** [Means teach or command]**

NOW A DONE DEAL John 14:16-17 “And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you

John 17: 18-19 “As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth. THIS MEANS: Christ Himself is here and the warranty of these truths, and that Jesus has given to the Pope [and Apostles] His very own POWERS and Authority as God.

And while the bible is entirely TRUE it is not infallible. And just like the Popes teachings MUST be accepeted, believed and lived in what is TAUGHT. It is not a history book, it tells stories, it is at times Mystical, it uses parables, so ONLY what is intended as TEACHING the Faith and Morals is without error, or the possibility of error.

Papal Infallibility goes back to Christ time on earth. It was defined at the 1st. Vatican Council and before that at Trent in the 16th. Century. That DOES NOT MEAN it did not exist prior to this. The very fact that it was UNNECESSARY to define it before the Protestant Revolution SIMPLY gives evidence that it was known AND accepted without a need for a councils articulation of it.

God Bless, PLEASE read up on this on my BLOG.

Pat

 

[PJM]

=cheese_sdc;8500325]I’m not a Catholic because:

I’ve never experienced the supposed loving God of Christianity; and even if I had; I don’t believe in the divinity of Jesus; and even if I did, I don’t believe in the primacy of the Pope; and even if I did, I don’t believe in inerrancy of scripture.

So your here WHY?

Love and prayers,
Pat

 

[PJM]

=miztyzo562;8502081]

Not to sound mean, but It doesnt really matter what the CC thinks, they are still attributed to pagan beliefs and practice. And the last I checked, Yeshua (Jesus) died on the cross, not Mary (Im not de-elevating her, just not elevating her to His status). The Scriptures are clear
"Thus says the LORD, “Do not learn the way of the nations, For the customs of the peoples are delusion;”

 

[Telestia]

I can understand expecially with the papal infallibility and the celibate priesthood as these are things that I find hard about the faith.

Celibate priesthood comes from Paul’s letters where somewhere he states that the Bishops and priests should be celibate (but the priest was referred to as something like a presbyter I think.

The Papal infallibility is just something you have to come to terms with. My suggestion is to look at the Pope’s writings on the faith (as only that is infallible) and see if you can find an error. Really infallibility is about the same as coming to believe the Bible is infallible.

You personally, don’t have to worry about the apparitions as those are outside of the deposit of faith and you are not required to believe in them. Marian dogmas are harder but the Bible kind of hints at it. I find that it would fall under “stand firm and hold fast to your traditions whether by word or by letter of ours”.

Indulgences were extremely abused in the middle ages and are really just prayers in which we ask God to forgive and purify those who have died. In the book of Maccabees, there is a passage where they pray for the dead that their sins would be forgiven. Christ also references to how certain sins would not be forgiven even in the next life implying that sins will be forgiven. It really is just like praying for the dead.

I hope this helps (although you may have heard this before ) A lot of this we find from the Bible which is expanded upon through tradition. It is similar to how the Jewish people have the Torah but they also have the Talmud which is the teachings of the Rabbis which further explains and clarifies the teachings and laws of the Torah. But good luck and God bless.

I can understand expecially with the papal infallibility and the celibate priesthood as these are things that I find hard about the faith.

The Papal infallibility is just something you have to come to terms with. My suggestion is to look at the Pope’s writings on the faith (as only that is infallible) and see if you can find an error. Really infallibility is about the same as coming to believe the Bible is infallible.

Yes, Papal infallibility, a Catholic Doctrine that goes all the way back to the 19th Century, I choose to establish my Christianity on the Bible alone, and in context given. And if you wish to believe in Papal Infallibility, that is your right to do so. I will not Judge you on it. That is between you and God. In my view, only God is infallible, and all humans that ever lived are sinners continually, myself included. And God has given us great compassion and grace.

How do I know this?

1 Jn 1:5-10
This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us. NASU

God alone is sufficient and necessary for me, though I do appreciate very much my fellowship with my fellow very fallible human beings, I being fallible too.

Celibate priesthood comes from Paul’s letters where somewhere he states that the Bishops and priests should be celibate (but the priest was referred to as something like a presbyter I think.

Let me quote Paul informing the Church on the celibacy of Bishops and Priests.

1 Ti 3:1-6
It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of Bishop (episkopon), it is a fine work he desires to do. A Bishop, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money. He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?), NASU

Please note the implication that, just like under Judaism, Christians may have more than one wife. This was not prohibited in the early Church.

I personally do not see any benefit from having two wives.

Scripture tells us that Peter had a wife. Your Pope Clement the 1st states Peter begat children with his wife.

As for ‘Priest’, The only mention of ‘Priest’ in the NT are the Leviticus Jewish Priests, and Jesus Christ as a THE PRIEST, our Priest, according to the order of Melchizedek.

But since the RCC does have Priest, I would think that if a Bishop can marry and have children, certainly a priest should be able to Marry and have children.

Of course they may choose to be celibate, but that is not mandated by Scripture, they are free to marry.

You personally, don’t have to worry about the apparitions as those are outside of the deposit of faith and you are not required to believe in them. Marian dogmas are harder but the Bible kind of hints at it. I find that it would fall under “stand firm and hold fast to your traditions whether by word or by letter of ours”.

Okay. I leave that to God.

 

[Telestia]

Indulgences were extremely abused in the middle ages and are really just prayers in which we ask God to forgive and purify those who have died. In the book of Maccabees, there is a passage where they pray for the dead that their sins would be forgiven. Christ also references to how certain sins would not be forgiven even in the next life implying that sins will be forgiven. It really is just like praying for the dead.

IMO, Maccabees has value as an historical book of that period.

I hope this helps (although you may have heard this before ) A lot of this we find from the Bible which is expanded upon through tradition. It is similar to how the Jewish people have the Torah but they also have the Talmud which is the teachings of the Rabbis which further explains and clarifies the teachings and laws of the Torah. But good luck and God bless.

Yes, I have been reading the Jewish Midrash on the Torah. Very interesting, but Biblical commentaries are from men, food for thought, but the Bible is from God, that we should neither add to it, nor subtract from it.

 

[PJM]

=Telestia;8502114]Prodigal Anglican, Those beliefs would be on my list also. I am curious why the Catholics believe these things.

Telestia

Well, tiredness just struck me.

O sleep, O gentle sleep, nature’s soft nurse!
Sleep that knits up the ravell’d sleave of care,…
We are such stuff as dreams are made of.

W.S.

***My dear friends in Christ,

Im the OP of this string

Prudently the FORM limits space so I cannot HERE respond in detail to the litinaty of excellent questions.

IF you really want to know the answers; those not already addresses on my BLOG [below] will be added later today. So you can with the slightest amount of effort find out both what we Catholics Do believe [seperating out rumors and myths], and WHY we beleve and practice these things.***

God Bless you,
Pat

Then if you still have questions ; PLEASE send me a PM and I’ll be gald to discusss the issue with you.

 

[miztyzo562]

Of course we both agree that the Pine Cone is not a pagan symbol of fertility to the CC - right? Nor does the CC embrace silly Egyptian mythos- right?

True and I agree, but ** why** incorporate such things rooted in idolotry and ancient pagan worship? Isn’t the word of our Lord enough to suffice as to where we don’t need objects of rememberance to embrace His Love? And thank you for being non argumentative

 

[Telestia]

***My dear friends in Christ,

Im the OP of this string

Prudently the FORM limits space so I cannot HERE respond in detail to the litinaty of excellent questions.

IF you really want to know the answers; those not already addresses on my BLOG [below] will be added later today. So you can with the slightest amount of effort find out both what we Catholics Do believe [seperating out rumors and myths], and WHY we beleve and practice these things.***

God Bless you,
Pat

Then if you still have questions ; PLEASE send me a PM and I’ll be gald to discusss the issue with you.

Thanks Pat, I will check your blog out and see what you have written related thereto.

 

[pablope]

pablope;8502332:

Again the Scriptures are clear, "Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them

, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me".

We do not bow to the statues, we bow to God.

Again, may I reiterate what I had said previously…go and sift word for word the Catechism…and find, locate a section that says catholics are to worship statues.

If you cannot, then you are implying something wrong with what you see…you only see the externals and infer something is amiss when there is not.

So, if I see you bowing and kneeling before a Bible…am I to assume then you are worshipping the Bible?