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boog123
Guest
then hang them from a burning cross and lynch umThen run into them with a bomb
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Montalban
Guest
Certainly, however a number of people want to deny that Islam is our enemy. It is; itâs opposed to Christ
Theyâre in need of love
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Montalban
Guest
Do I? Okay, if you want to judge me personally and youâve ceased debate, thatâs entirely up to you; obviously this too is how you show love
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tofurunner32
Guest
Iâd like to preface this by saying I am no expert on Islamic theology, nor am I qualified to comment on the meaning of passages in the Ourâan anymore than you are, or anyone else on this thread. I think we should all be wary of being drawn into some sort quotation contest to see who can best defend their positions. It would be best I think, to first read the works of qualified academics and theologians on the subject (as I have noted, El Fadlâs book is a good place to start, there are many others out there.) I would suggest avoiding any work that would characterize Islam as some sort of monolithic entity, clearly Muslims, of which there are some 1 billion (I know some of you here think this number exaggerated, but lets save that discussion for another thread) donât all think and act one way. I also think we all should be careful to avoid the pitfall of literally interoperating a verse, whether in the Qurâan, the Bible, or any other holy text, without first adequately understanding the historical and cultural context in which it was written. Now, Iâm certainly not saying that there arenât concerning passages in the Qurâan, or that many Muslims draw inspiration for horrible, violent deeds from these passages, just that I think some of us are ignoring the complexity of this issue. With that said, here are some verses I came across that I think suggest tolerance and non-violence:
O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise each other). Verily the most honored of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things). Quran 49:13
Those who believe (in the Quran ), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians ,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. Quran 2:62
Let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. ( Quran 5:8)
Say: "We believe in God, and that which has been sent down to us, and sent down on Abraham and Ishmael, Isaac and Jacob, and the Tribes, and in that which was given to Moses and Jesus, and the Prophets, of their Lord; we make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we surrender ( Muslimun ) Quran 3:83-84.
and this last one, though not specific to any one group, I think is easily the most powerful. I myself consider it beautiful and quite inspiring.
*Whoever killed a human being should be looked upon as though he had killed all mankind * Quran 5:32
I think this last passage is a clear example of what Cardinal William J. Levada, head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, says, "outside the Catholic Church elements of holiness and truth do exist and that the Holy Spirit is working in those other communities and churches as well.â Anywho, lets try to remember that Islam, and no other religion for that matter, is as simple as people are making it out to be.
Gob Bless
p.s. I am not familiar what verse you refer to when you say the âSanhedrin plagiarismâ. I apologize, as I said I am not an expert on Islamic theology. Please do explain, if you have the time.
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Montalban
Guest
"Do not judge so that you will not be judged. "For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. (Matthew 7:1-5)
But we know the truth, the way, and it would be wrong for us not to tell people who are in dire need of Jesus that they must turn from sin.
But we know the truth, the way, and it would be wrong for us not to tell people who are in dire need of Jesus that they must turn from sin.
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Montalban
Guest
Thatâs simply not the case. Many times weâve confronted Islam WITH the words of Moslems themselves.
e.g I quoted from the Koran
Koran 5:51
O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Auliyaâ (friends, protectors, helpers, etc.), they are but Auliyaâ to one another. And if any amongst you takes them as Auliyaâ, then surely he is one of them. Verily, Allah guides not those people who are the Zalimun (polytheists and wrongdoers and unjust).
And then Islamic opinion on the same issueâŚ
Allaah has forbidden the believers to take the kaafireen (disbelievers) as friends, and He has issued a stern warning against doing that.
islamqa.com/index.php?ref=59879&ln=eng
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Keikiolu
Guest
Welcome, newbie Tofu (said affectionately), and thanks for offering up your opinions.
Notice that the word âislamâ is not used in the catechism.
I donât argue that most moslems âthinkâ that they are âadoring the one merciful Godâ, or that they do do that, but the god of islam is certainly NOT the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, as portrayed in islamâs koran.
Therefore, while itâs possible that a âshallowâ moslem (the VAST majority in my opinion) actually does have faith in the true God, in a limited sense, those who âknow their islamâ are in fact worshipping something other than God.
In other words, moslems may believe in the true God, if they arenât well instructed in islam, but no âstudentâ of islam is worshipping the true God.
Moslems âprofessâ to hold the faith of Abraham (though not the faith of Isaac and Jacob, apparently).
To âprofessâ to hold the faith of Abraham is not necessarily to âholdâ the faith of Abraham.
Where does the catechism call islam a âtrueâ religion? Where does it mention the word âislamâ?
If the catechism neither calls islam a âtrueâ religion or a âfalseâ religion, we are free to call it what we like.
Once again, show me specifically where ISLAM (not moslem people) is not seen as either evil or not-evilâŚ!?
Until you can do that, you are talking out of your hat.
Thank you, oh policeman of âtoneâ.
The âtoneâ of this discussion is modulated by the importance of the issue, in the minds of those doing the discussing.
To my mind, the importance of the issue is very VERY grave. That you think otherwise is fine, but doesnât âtone downâ my valuation of the situation in the least.
Thanks Tofu,⌠you soft squishy mush, youâŚ!! <poking fun!!
>Mahalo ke AkuaâŚ!
E pili mau na pomaika
i ia oe. Aloha nui.
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thedavidwilson
Guest
âTolerance does not apply to truth or principles. About these things we must be intolerant, and for this kind of intolerance, so much needed to rouse us from sentimental gush, I make a plea. Intolerance of this kind is the foundation of stability.â
- His Excellency Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen, Servant of God
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Keikiolu
Guest
This âislam is a monolithâ nonsense is not believed by anyone, therefore it is a sham idea brought up merely to confuse the issue.
Tofu, the issue is not that islam, as laid out in the koran and aHadith, arenât interpretable as non-violent (that we can all agree with),âŚ
âŚThe issue is that it interpretable AS VIOLENT,⌠which it would be undeniably impossible not to doâŚ!
I fully admit that itâs possible to interpret islam as non-violent. But that doesnât say anything about the issue of those who stubbornly refuse to move off their interpretation that islam, as per the koran and aHadith, justifies violence, and calls it holy behavior.
Simple theft from Genesis, and a suggestion to be ârighteousâ. OK⌠could ârighteousâ mean âkill the infidelâ here?
Well, since once again the sura hinges on the definition of ârighteousnessâ, could ârighteousnessâ mean âkill the infidelââŚ?
Which would mean that Christians who kill islamically-defined-infidels are the only ones who are âsavedââŚ?
continued below â
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Keikiolu
Guest
âŚcontinued from above:
This sura tells me PRECISELY the aim of, or rather permission within, islam. That islam is in the business of killing all mankind if it doesnât submit to islam as interpreted by those who are sociopaths.
Iâm not worried about YOUR interpretation of islam.
Iâm worried about sociopathic interpretations of islam.
Are you seriously saying that we should NOT worry about those who act on sociopathic interpretations of islamâŚ!?
Could âjusticeâ be defined as âkilling the infidelâ, who deserve the âjustice of death for promoting non-islamââŚ?
So, unless you agree that all those âprophetsâ are of equal quality (âwe make no distinction between ANY of themâ), which is impossible for a Christian to do, you are not a âgood personâ and may be dealt with as dhimmi or infidel, and done so ârighteouslyâ, with violence if necessaryâŚ?
But, apparently, itâs permissable to âkill all mankindâ, as killing, as opposed to murder, is NOT FORBIDDEN in islam (koran AND aHadith!) as a punishmentâŚ!
This sura tells me PRECISELY the aim of, or rather permission within, islam. That islam is in the business of killing all mankind if it doesnât submit to islam as interpreted by those who are sociopaths.
Your personal interpretation of that last sura is âcorrectâ, and well meaning, as YOUR PESONAL INTERPRETATION.
Iâm not worried about YOUR interpretation of islam.
Iâm worried about sociopathic interpretations of islam.
Are you seriously saying that we should NOT worry about those who act on sociopathic interpretations of islamâŚ!?
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boog123
Guest
iâm not a christian, jesus teaching on judgement does not apply to me, but u on the other handâŚDo I? Okay, if you want to judge me personally and youâve ceased debate, thatâs entirely up to you; obviously this too is how you show love
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boog123
Guest
Jesus went into towns and cities and spread the gospels.
Jesus did not go into towns and cities and tell everyone what was wrong with the other religions, if there faith is already with that religion then what good would it do to tell them what they already hear from muslim haters anyway, i know, it will make their faith stronger which is part of the reason why in 10 years or so, islam will be the biggest religion in the world.
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Keikiolu
Guest
What âteaching regarding judgementâ does apply to you, BoogâŚ!?Quote:
Originally Posted by Montalban forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
Do I? Okay, if you want to judge me personally and youâve ceased debate, thatâs entirely up to you; obviously this too is how you show love
iâm not a christian, jesus teaching on judgement does not apply to me, but u on the other handâŚ
Is Jesusâ teaching on judgement a good one, or a bad one?
I find it very interesting that moslems, who no doubt would describe themselves as âmoderate non-jihadisâ, wonât answer the simplest question from a Christian with anything approaching coherence.
âŚbut then,⌠we are kafir,⌠and unworthy of anything but being given orders and doing them or being killed for our insolence.
Mahalo ke AkuaâŚ!
E pili mau na pomaika
i ia oe. Aloha nui.
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tofurunner32
Guest
So as to be clear, let me attempt to summarize your two posts. If at any point, you feel that I have misrepresented what you said or meant, please correct me, when passions are aroused and the only way to express them is by typing words anomalously, it can be easy to misunderstand one another.
Basically, while you agree that all of the above passages from the Qurâan could be seen as a call to peace and tolerance, you argue that it is also quite possible to see them as justifying violence, at least tacitly, if not overtly when analyzed with other passages that are more obvious in their call to violence and intolerance (take not Jews and Christians to be friends, etc, etc) You then go on to say, that it is these people who see the above passages, along with others mentioned in this thread, as a call to spread the Islamic faith through violence and conquest, that we should be concerned with. I hope that this is a fair representation of your position.
Let me be clear on my position. Those individuals who find justification for murder and intolerance in the Qurâan (al-Qaeda types and any others who would commit violence in the name of Allah) should be fought against tooth and nail. If possible, help them to change their way of thinking. If not, deal with them appropriately (capture them if possible, kill them if absolutely necessaryâthough I would still grieve for the loss of human life, no matter how despicable a human he/she was).
However, Iâm fairly certain everyone on this thread would agree that violent extremist Muslims need to be fought. The issue that seems to be under debate here, is whether moderate and peaceful Muslims can rightly claim that theirs is a religion of peace hijacked by radical extremists. These moderate Muslims would point to the above passages from the Qurâan as evidence that violence and intolerance has no place within their faith. I believe they would consider extremist interpretations of the Qurâan just what you labeled them: âsociopathic interpretations of Islam.â From what I have read, many of these moderate Muslims would go on to say that those passages in the Qurâan that advocate violence or intolerance were meant for a certain time in history and that they are no longer applicable today. Why should we say that they are wrong? Who are we to tell these moderates, who we should be cheering on, that they donât know their own faith? These moderates need our support in their struggle against the extremists in their own religion. By saying that Islam is inherently violent, we validate the extremist position and undercut those Muslims who argue for peace and tolerance. This is not to say that we should not be concerned with Islamic radicals, quite the opposite. We should be very concerned with them, and one way to fight against their hateful message is to not echo it.
(alright, Iâm getting close to the word limit, Iâll continue in another post.)
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Keikiolu
Guest
Jesus, and the apostles, and the deciples, told (tell) the truth to the people of the world. The âpeople of the worldâ very often find that that truth is that what they know of their religion is wrong.
That is telling the people of the world that their religions, which may hold some truth from God, is not THE truth from God,and is therefore wrong, and should be abandoned in favor of the truth.
Your statement is simply incorrect,⌠and you show yourself as one who has no idea what heâs talking about.
It makes them more of what they are,⌠which in the case of moslems is more violent, bloodthirsty, murderous, and tribal.
Moslem inculcated people will be a much larger portion of the worldâs population in VERY short order.
But will they be the greatest âpolitical powerâ on the planet?
How much of the moslem population will be âinsignificant antsâ in terms of political power?
Do you agree that islamic law should be the law of the land for the world population?
Will those who see the imposition of islamic law and islamic government as an evil (as I do) submit to it?
Weâll see.
Mahalo ke AkuaâŚ!
E pili mau na pomaika
i ia oe. Aloha nui.
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tofurunner32
Guest
(continued from my previous post, please pardon the length, I am just the longwinded type of guy.)
Lastly in regards to the Catechismâs statement on Muslims and salvation. First I would say that the passage makes no distinction between Muslims who have completely accepted their faith, and those that have not been well instructed in it. It just says all Muslims, who, along with us Catholics worship the one God, are part of the divine plan of salvation. It seems to me, that the words âthese profess to hold the faith of Abrahamâ are meant to simply be a descriptor of Muslims, not some sort of veiled statement of doubt about the sincerity of that profession of faith. Furthermore, as I said in another post, when one looks at the words and actions of our own Pope, it becomes very clear that he does not hold Islam as an evil religion. And I will assume that if the Holy Father doesnât hold Islam as a false or evil religion, neither should I.
I apologize if I seemed preachy or overbearing when I said to tone things down. I agree this is a serious subject that warrants serious debate. I just think we should go about discussing it with a bit of civility and respect.
God Bless
Lastly in regards to the Catechismâs statement on Muslims and salvation. First I would say that the passage makes no distinction between Muslims who have completely accepted their faith, and those that have not been well instructed in it. It just says all Muslims, who, along with us Catholics worship the one God, are part of the divine plan of salvation. It seems to me, that the words âthese profess to hold the faith of Abrahamâ are meant to simply be a descriptor of Muslims, not some sort of veiled statement of doubt about the sincerity of that profession of faith. Furthermore, as I said in another post, when one looks at the words and actions of our own Pope, it becomes very clear that he does not hold Islam as an evil religion. And I will assume that if the Holy Father doesnât hold Islam as a false or evil religion, neither should I.
I apologize if I seemed preachy or overbearing when I said to tone things down. I agree this is a serious subject that warrants serious debate. I just think we should go about discussing it with a bit of civility and respect.
God Bless
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boog123
Guest
itâs a geat teaching.
them not answering your questions affects u in some way, OK
it interests u, ok.
your right there wrong
now what?
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Verisimilitude
Guest
Did you change your profile? I was pretty sure the other day it said you were Christian.
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boog123
Guest
read my signature below, thatâs one of Jesus teachings that he spoke to the people
but this, 1 of your quotes:
How much of the moslem population will be âinsignificant antsâ in terms of political power?
is not something i think he would say
it makes them more of what they are might be true, yet iâm sure people will continue to bash them even while believing that
no i donât beleive that islamic law should be the law of the land, muslims donât either, those are the terrorists that claim islam.
maybe u should not submit or should, thats up to u
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boog123
Guest
yeah i thought u had to be a christian to get on this forum
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