I'm starting to believe my friend!

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Saying that leaving the Catholic Church is a schism is assuming that the Church has not strayed from the bible at all over the last 2000 years. I don’t think we can assume that the Catholic Church has made NO mistakes. We can also not assume that any church has made NO mistakes.
 
No one is saying that the Catholic Church is perfect. After all, it is made up of sinners. We all sin, there is no question about that. What it means is teaching faith and morals. It goes back to the gates of hell not prevailing against it. The Catholic Church can not and will not ever err in teaching faith and morals because the, Bible says so. Christ will not let his Church be led into error. Thats why we have the Vicar of Christ. The sucessor of peter. The Bible never says that once you start believing in Christ that you can not and will not ever sin. Yes, the Church has made some mistakes, it is made up of human beings. BUT NOT WHEN IT COMES TO FAITH AND MORALS. That would make Jesus a liar and we know that not to be true. When You leave the Church over a infallibly taught dogma or doctrine, this is schism.
 
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sapl31:
Saying that leaving the Catholic Church is a schism is assuming that the Church has not strayed from the bible at all over the last 2000 years. I don’t think we can assume that the Catholic Church has made NO mistakes. We can also not assume that any church has made NO mistakes.
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I respectfully disagree, for a few reasons. The bible hasn’t been around for 2000 years. The Church can’t stray from it because it came from her, not the other way around.
The Church has never, in her 2000 year history, officially taught error. To be sure, individuals within her have done some undesirable things. However, the truth of Church teaching is not measured, or effected, by the behavior of her members.
 
Have you ever played the game where each person whispers in teh next persons ear a statement and by the time it is over the statement changes.

Well, how can you be sure that nothing that has been passed down has not been accidently changed. How can you know that these things are not in error. The Bible can not be in error but if it is not proveable in God’s Holy Word how do you know it hasn’t changed. The Bible does say that the gate of hell shall not orevauk against His church, but you are also right that human’s err. How do you know that in the dark days of the Catholic Church that errors where not passed down by the dishonest priest taking money to forgive sins.

Also, the Greek Orthodox church would argue that Catholic’s branched from them. How would you respond. Which church history in error.

These are some of the reasons I decided not to join the Catholic Church because I can not belong to something that does not love all Christians. We are saved through grace by faith not by works lest any man should boast. How can I judge another person’s faith or whether they are right with God? How can I know the truth about their salvation/ By the way, I do not believe once saved always saved no matter what you do. I believe you can leave God’s grace and thus not go to heaven.
 
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sapl31:
Have you ever played the game where each person whispers in teh next persons ear a statement and by the time it is over the statement changes.

Well, how can you be sure that nothing that has been passed down has not been accidently changed. How can you know that these things are not in error.
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The holy Spirit does not safeguard every word that the Church leadership utters from being error. But he does prevent the Church from OFFICIALLY teaching error. God created the universe with a word. It would be child’s play for him to prevent error from being taught.
The Bible can not be in error but if it is not proveable in God’s Holy Word how do you know it hasn’t changed.
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Because the holy Spirit is trustworthy.
These are some of the reasons I decided not to join the Catholic Church because I can not belong to something that does not love all Christians.
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I’m curious why you feel that the Catholic Church does not love all Christians.
We are saved through grace by faith not by works lest any man should boast.
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Yes, that’s what the Church teaches.
How can I judge another person’s faith or whether they are right with God? How can I know the truth about their salvation/
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You can’t. Only God knows that, even better than we do ourselves.
By the way, I do not believe once saved always saved no matter what you do. I believe you can leave God’s grace and thus not go to heaven.
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We agree on that.
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sapl31:
Have you ever played the game where each person whispers in teh next persons ear a statement and by the time it is over the statement changes.

Well, how can you be sure that nothing that has been passed down has not been accidently changed. How can you know that these things are not in error. The Bible can not be in error but if it is not proveable in God’s Holy Word how do you know it hasn’t changed. The Bible does say that the gate of hell shall not orevauk against His church, but you are also right that human’s err. How do you know that in the dark days of the Catholic Church that errors where not passed down by the dishonest priest taking money to forgive sins.

I leave the scriptural / catechism answers alone here. Think about this. The Catholic Church acknowledges bad behaviour by clergy and laity alike in the present and past - human failings. Protestants used this to break away. But look at their history, just as much scandal and fighting there!

Also, the Greek Orthodox church would argue that Catholic’s branched from them. How would you respond. Which church history in error.

Some Orthodox (of all varieites - Russian etc) do. Others see the Roman church as we see the Orthodox - as a church with valid sacraments and holy orders - lacking little to attain full communion - Pope John Paul’s analogy - the two lungs of the church, east and west.

These are some of the reasons I decided not to join the Catholic Church because I can not belong to something that does not love all Christians. We are saved through grace by faith not by works lest any man should boast. How can I judge another person’s faith or whether they are right with God? How can I know the truth about their salvation/ By the way, I do not believe once saved always saved no matter what you do. I believe you can leave God’s grace and thus not go to heaven.

The Catholic Church loves all christians - cathecism says so. Biblical teaching is we are saved by faith and works - dependent on the grace of god. You cant judge another’s faith or whether they are right with god nor are you supposed to - judge not, lest ye… - Catholic Church does not believe in once saved always saved either. It also teaches you can lose your salvation through persistant obstinate grave sin.

JGC
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sapl31:
Well, how can you be sure that nothing that has been passed down has not been accidently changed. How can you know that these things are not in error. The Bible can not be in error but if it is not proveable in God’s Holy Word how do you know it hasn’t changed.
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Well, in the same way Tradition has been passed down, the Bible has also been passed down. In the same way your game of telephone is played, the Bible has been copied many times and we have none of the original transcripts. It is our faith in the Churhc and in God’s promise to her that his teachings would be handed down faithfully that allows us to accept both oral and written (Scripture) Tradition.
Also, the Greek Orthodox church would argue that Catholic’s branched from them. How would you respond. Which church history in error.
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Since I believe that the Bible is canonical, and that to Peter was especially given the commission to found the Church, then since there is a great deal of evidence that he did in fact serve as the first Bishop of Rome I would say the Greek Orthodox is in error on this point. I have a great deal of respect for the Greek Orthodox church, but in this case I think that history and archeology indicate that they branched off from us.
 
I’m curious why you feel that the Catholic Church does not love all Christians
Because in my time in the Catholic church I was attacked regularly for being non-Catholic Christian and told often that I would not make it to Heaven because of it. I don’t find that loving.
**I have seen several places where other’s on this forum have made statements that we are not saved by faith but by what we do. I do not believe that is what I have heard taught in mass, but seems to be prevelant among the lay persons. One comment I read said they were offended in VBS because a teacher said we can not be perfect, so that is why God sent Jesus to die for our sins so we could go to Heaven. She was upset that her children were taught that. **
Finally, I am glad we can agree on something. By the way, my belief on salvation is the teaching of the Nazarene Church a “protestant” church.
 
Catholics love all people, we just want what is best for them. We want to share our sincere beliefs. If you sincerely believe in good faith that you will be saved, ok. But we aren’t going to say “as long as you are happy, you can believe anything you want”. The Truth can be hard to swallow and even pracitcing Catholics like myself deal with it.
 
Ick! It is so hard to read that blue!

Everything you speak of are errors on the part of the people in a church not the teachings of the church. I came to The Catholic church because of what I am SUPPOSED to believe, not what always gets taught or practiced.

As for the way you were treated, it wasn’t right. And not that it will make what happened right, try being a Catholic in a Protestant church. Talk about being attacked and told you are going to Hell! Or not even going to church with them, but just talking to them in person. What you see on this site is not isolated to the internet. People are rude and do not truly reflect Christ’s love in all denominations.

By the by, I had my born again experience in a Nazarene church. I left though (to an assembly of God) because my pastor told us that sanctification is not a process but a one time event. This just did not make sense to me. Maybe he taught wrong? But I am glad either way because it started my walk to the Catholic Church.

God Bless

p.s. I know it won’t make up for it, but here is one Catholic who doesn’t think you are going to Hell just because you are not Catholic, (Which IS the official teaching), but you may be surprised to get there by way of Purgatory:eek: .
 
sapl31 said:
I’m curious why you feel that the Catholic Church does not love all Christians

Because in my time in the Catholic church I was attacked regularly for being non-Catholic Christian and told often that I would not make it to Heaven because of it. I don’t find that loving.

**I have seen several places where other’s on this forum have made statements that we are not saved by faith but by what we do. I do not believe that is what I have heard taught in mass, but seems to be prevelant among the lay persons. One comment I read said they were offended in VBS because a teacher said we can not be perfect, so that is why God sent Jesus to die for our sins so we could go to Heaven. She was upset that her children were taught that. **

Finally, I am glad we can agree on something. By the way, my belief on salvation is the teaching of the Nazarene Church a “protestant” church.
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Sounds like you are attributing the the Church as a whole that which should rightly be attributed to individuals within the Church.
 
Not for nothing, but I try not to fall into these co-dependant guilt trips. When someone say “I don’t like you, because you don’t love me” type statements they remind of people in abusive relationships when one says, “If you love me, you would… fill in the blank”
 
Maria G.

For what it is worth. The sermon I heard last week on santification is a process that culminates in a crisis experience to understand your need to become fully Holy or gain heart holiness and then the process continues until you die and go to heaven or the Lord returns for his people.

I am glad to hear that there are some who can except persons from other Christian faiths.

I know when we are all in Heaven (via purgatory or not) that it won’t matter anymore what we called ourselves. Unfortunately it is a problem that even Paul has to address in the NT.

God Bless you and Keep you.
 
Hey Ryan!

Glad you made the decision to avoid the temptation to leave and have begun the renewal of your mind in Christ. (see Romans 12:2) It is never a bad thing to study Scripture or pray more. We all get “tested” from time to time and the choice we are supposed to make is for Christ. Some folks fall hard. Obviously you are made of tougher stuff than you thought! Praise to You, Lord Jesus Christ, King od endless glories!

Before you know it, you will be bearing fine witness to your friend and the both of you can go to Mass together. BTW, have you asked him or her to attend with you yet? Might get the ball rolling.

I agree that it is a sad thing how excited folks get when they try to “prove” they are right about God and everyone else is wrong.

Dearest Luke: Everything in Scripture affirms what we as Catholics believe and teach, EVERYTHING! You cannot use Scripture to contradict Scripture. “You shall not put the Lord your God to the TEST!” which is what you are doing by pitting one Scripture against another. TSK. TSK. TSK. Of course every Catholic is NOT a scripture scholar with the capacity to interpret accurately all that Scripture contains, but then again we don’t have to be because we can Trust our Church and our God to lead us to all Truth. We have faith.

Perhaps if you lay your enmity aside long enough to truely listen to what you are saying, you’ll find some peace in your life.

Peace and all good,

Thomas2
 
Ryan: Please remember that only through the Catholic Church can scripture be interpreted correctly. The Bible you hold in your hand is the Bible of the Church, written for the Church and by the Church.

In the early Church scripture only included the Old Testament because the New Testament had not been written yet.

A question for Luke: Does this mean that all the people who were alive from the time Jesus died until the New Testament was put together were NOT SAVED. They certainly didn’t have the New Testament in their hands.

Ryan: I also think you should look at 2 Peter 1:20 - “Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God.”

and 2 Peter 3:15-16 - “And consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, as our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, also wrote to you, speaking of these things as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures.”

St. Peter here warns us that we are not able to interpret scripture by ourselves or we can be deceived.

As your friend, “What do you believe is the pillar and foundation of all truth?” He will probably say the Bible. Then refer him to
1 Tim. 3:15 “But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.” We are told right here in the Bible that the Pillar and Foundation of all truth is the Church. There was and is only One Church. Remember that the Church is not a denomination. A denomination is something that broke away from the original.

God Bless and I hope I have been helpful! I will pray for you and for Luke!
 
Ryan,
First, read Jesus’ Priestly Prayer, which is all of John, 17.

Then, think. Many Catholics have pointed out on this thread that every one of the 30,000+ protestant denominations have at least one difference in dogma,and there are more denominations forming every day because someone finds a “new” interpretation of some part of scripture.
God cannot contradict Himself!!! He founded the Catholic Church on Peter and gave it the tools (saraments, apostolic succession, Magesterium) to keep it intct after he returned to the Father.
All Protestant denoiminations are offshoots of the true church, the Catholic Church. Scripture, Tradition and history (the Church Fathers) prove it.
NO ONE can interpret Scripture correctly for himself. It takes Christ’s Church.
Hang in, study, pray and be reinforced in your faith.
God bless
 
SAPL31

Time for you to use some reasoning and philosphy.

christ came to put things right etc, now there is no one coming after him. There is no one coming after him to set us on the right track again if we go off in error.

God has to have ensured that we have the correct teaching and he has to have ensured that we have always had it from his time onwards.

If he has not ensured it then no one can know at what point he stopped ensuring sound teaching. As the New testament was written after he died we cannot know whether it is true or not. No good him giving us his teachings orally or written of what he wants and then not ensuring that we correctly understand and can continue the teaching.

the main reason Protestants argue against catholicism is that you will notice that Protestantism is a lot easier to comply with as they tend to let people live how they like more, it all comes down to our personal desire not to have to stop or give up things, so we tend to find what will allow us to continue in our actions. Protestantism promotes and allows this.

Philisophically speaking, If catholicism be false then Christianity is false.

In Christ

Tim
 
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Oh and another thing, my friend said that when Jesus gave the keys to peter, and said " The gates of hell shall not pervail against it", he didn’t mean the CATHOLIC church, he was talking about Christianity in general, and i got to say, it makes sence. Am I wrong to believe this, please i don’t think this is right, but i feel like i have been wrong for a long time

Firstly,

there was only one Christian Faith, the Church of Christ, Catholicism! There were no denominations untill 1600 years LATER! My friend don’t seek the easy way out! It is the denominations who have given the title Roman Catholicism to us, not US! Catholic was Christian it was one in the same, it’s only recently ,well VERY RECENTLY that it’s became two separate entities! Catholics were the first Christians and we’ll be the last!

Angel Crooks
 
THANKS TO ALL MY FELLOW CATHOLICS, CONTINUE TO HELP KIDS LIKE ME TO UNDERSTAND! oh and i please ask that you don’t stop talking about this subject, tell me WHY what I was starting to believe is Wrong, Wrong, WRONG!
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I am really glad you posed this question here. Asking questions is how we grow stronger in our Faith and Knowlege of the Catholic Church. When I was in highschool my friends were all either various protestant denominations or non-religious. Sure, I had Catholic friends in my parish youth group but my core social group was rather anti- Catholic, or rather they repeated what they were taught at their churches about the Catholic Church, which were perpetuated lies and twisted truth. I thought that by going to a Catholic College I would become stronger in my faith, but often learning causes us to question more. I began to have a strong desire to answer, for myself, all those questions my friends had about the Pope and Mary and the true presence in the Eucharist. Was the Sacrament of Confession or Penance really necessary for forgiveness? I was 21 when I began an intense Scripture study on my own. I bought some Catholic apologetics books and later began to study the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I unknowingly embarked on an adult conversion. The Mass became more meaningful. I never left the Catholic Church but I had a child’s understanding because my CCD left off at 8th grade and I missed out on the Catechism. I am so greatful that I was born Catholic, I am in awe of the Truth being protected by the Catholic Church. You are right, there are elements of truth found in the various Protestant denominations… but it is only because they chose a few beliefs from the origional Cathoic Church to follow, Only the Catholic Church has the FULL deposit of the Faith. Satan creeps in wherever he can… and likes to pose as a wolf in sheeps clothing… even when the sheep is unaware of helping the wolf.

You are being called by the Holy Spirit to take the Faith your parents have passed onto you and make it your own. You have 2000 years of Sacred Tradition (The Scriptures included in this Tradition) passed onto you. It is your turn to learn all you can and discover the Truth of Christ (and the Church He gave us) for yourself. Pray. Get the Catechism of the Catholic Church and read the corresponding Scripture. You should be able to find the information you need. No matter what, keep going to Mass. My Catholic Faith is my greatest treasure. Your questions are necessary to learn more. Catholic Answers is a great website and forum. You are in the right place.
 
Sorry, I just read my post and I guess if you include the Old Testament… it’s over 5,000 yrs of Sacred Tradition…Also, God is protecting the Catholic Church which holds the Sacred Tradition intact. If the Catholic Church were merely “man made” and didn’t have the promise that Hell would not prevail against it, it would have fallen apart long ago. I wasn’t clear enough!
 
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