Im thinking of leaving the church

[Randy_Carson]

One doesn’t have to read too many message boards on Yahoo and elsewhere to realize the claim that I made which is MANY Catholics do pray to statues, etc. is not that far off.

Let me get this straight: you’re saying Catholics pray TO pieces of wood, plaster and plastic? Expecing these man-made things to hear and answer? :nope:

But even if one were to see fellow Catholics praying to statues in public, even giving them the benefit of the doubt, it is still scandal, is it not? And a scandal which cannot be trivialized seeing that many are indeed leaving the Church.

It is no scandal to those who understand what the communion of saints is really all about?

Do you?

As for those who are leaving the Church, this is unfortunate but many (if not most) of those leaving are ignorant of what Catholicisim actually teaches. One only has to read through a few threads on this site to get a feel from former Catholics as to how poor their understanding actually is.

As for those coming in, (80,000+ annually in the US alone), they are very aware of the very issues you speak of and understand them properly.

These folks are fired up for Jesus and His Church.

I’m sorry for the lost, but all in all, it’s not a bad trade.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[Randy_Carson]

Truth cannot contradict truth.

If God’s love is in your heart then you would not promote hate propaganda against the Catholic Church. As for your sudden “appearance” on CAF, it was only a matter of time before one of you showed up to make sure Doberman didn’t start doubting your organization.

All you other posters: this is not about disagreements on doctrine. Imho that website to which Doberman referred us has the hallmarks of cult activity. The good news is that there is help for folks who are caught up in the bondage of hatred driven by peer pressure.

Are you saying that specops777 is a member of a cult organization?

 

[FCEGM]

Let me get this straight: you’re saying Catholics pray TO pieces of wood, plaster and plastic? Expecing these man-made things to hear and answer? :nope:

It is no scandal to those who understand what the communion of saints is really all about?

Do you?

As for those who are leaving the Church, this is unfortunate but many (if not most) of those leaving are ignorant of what Catholicisim actually teaches. One only has to read through a few threads on this site to get a feel from former Catholics as to how poor their understanding actually is.

As for those coming in, (80,000+ annually in the US alone), they are very aware of the very issues you speak of and understand them properly.

These folks are fired up for Jesus and His Church.

I’m sorry for the lost, but all in all, it’s not a bad trade.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

You’re so right, Randy. Without knowing anything about the Church such as the OP then proceed to be informed about “the truth” of Catholicism from the most ignorant sources - the old “blind leading the blind” story. There is no intellectual honesty exhibited that seeks to discover what the Church actually teaches and no patience to listen; the lie is preferred to the truth.

 

[JLSacred]

To the OP, my advise is to find some good Catholic in your daily life to talk to. Posting a question like this on this particular site is probably not the best avenue for help. This site is a bit of a free for all, where uncharitable, accusatory remarks are tolerated for some reason. It doesn’t represent the ideal that we should strive for in how to help a questioning or hurting brother or sister in Christ.

I’ve noticed that there are some mean sounding people on this site who would rather win an argument than extend a helping hand. You need to be secure in your faith to benefit from this site, at least I do.

 

[guanophore]

Jesus wa God, the pope is not God, and why communicate with saints? We have God.

If indeed you were baptized a Catholic, Doberman, you were brought into the Body of Christ. At the present time, it does not sound like you are communion with the saints, or other Catholics. However, your refusal to acknowledge the body does not make it untrue.

16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell? 18 But as it is, God arranged the organs in the body, each one of them, as he chose. 19 If all were a single organ, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many parts, yet one body. 21 The eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you,” nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.”
1 Cor 12:16-21

It is not your place to say that you have no need of the other body parts. This is the Body of Christ, and individually, we are members of it. Those who have passed from this world into the next are no less members of His body. In fact, if they died in Christ, they behold the beatific vision, and are united with him to a degree that we cannot be, since we are covered by the veil of this world.

I only answer 1/20 questons i feel are important. But since this unimportant queston come up so many times.

I am a born again catholic but not by choice. My family converted when i was 12, i didnt think much about it. In latter days iv become more spiritual and start to doubt the church im in.

This is very important, Doberman. It is good that you are now reflecting on your faith, but you have a responsibility to learn what it really teaches before abandoning it. What does it mean to be a “born again catholic”?

Also, if you did not have a choice, you cannot be born again, or catholic!

(Luther rebelled)

The reason was that the popes and monks had sex, they sinned all the time. He attacked the people in the church.

It seems to me that you are following after Luther, by attacking people in the church. The popes, priests, and monks did not “have sex and sin all the time”. This is a misconstruction of history. There were many holy men and women, and not all of them were sinners. however, It is not your place to judge the sins and shortcomings of others, only yourself. Are you an idolater?
Better stop worshipping statues!

(Muslims) choose their own laws and scriptures from the bible.

This is what protestants do also, and what you are doing right now, Doberman. Have you considered becoming a Muslim, instead of a protestant? Perhaps Allah is calling you?

Iv become more aware of my religion. I started to hang out with a protestant. And he told me things and showed me some sites.

Have you never had any Catholics do this for you?

Its been a real eye opener for me, and im not sure if the catholic church is the right path. ITs made of humans and humans make misstakes especially after 2000 years after Jesus.

Hmmm…so, protestants and Muslims are not humans? Convert! Become God! When you make a comment like this, it seems clear that you are basically saying “Jesus does not keep His promises”.

 The reason mother mary got so much attention from being just another mortal is cause that the Roman church wanted to convert pagans. And they needed several Gods and godesses.

I am afraid this is an error, Doberman. Let me ask you this: Is Jesus God? If He is God, and Mary is His mother, then she is the Mother of God.

Let me ask you this also: Why do you disobey the scriptures by failing to call Mary blessed?

 

[Protestant101]

The rules on the forums are very clear… non Catholics are Not allowed to use these forums as a way to push their own agenda… you are doing exactly that… you can debate and ask questions but it is clear you are not to try to get people to leave the Church… you can do that on your own time but not on these forums… moderators please take notice

I am sure the Moderators have taken notice. I am equally sure that you have no way of knowing motive so well by a few internet postings from someone you never met.

Biblical answers would likely be better here. Very few “non-Catholics” would post here without wanting to “debate.” Isn’t this how we figure out what’s right or wrong?

 

[kamz]

I am sure the Moderators have taken notice. I am equally sure that you have no way of knowing motive so well by a few internet postings from someone you never met.

Biblical answers would likely be better here. Very few “non-Catholics” would post here without wanting to “debate.” Isn’t this how we figure out what’s right or wrong?

Well, this is from forum conduct:

(Do not view the discussion area as a vehicle for single-mindedly promoting an agenda.
Non-Catholics are welcome to participate but must be respectful of the faith of the Catholics participating on the board.)

These boards are not a place to play the game of “lets lead a troubled Catholic away from their faith” and posting an email address and telling the op to email oneself so that they may learn the truth and that truth is against the Catholic church? Then in my opinion you don’t belong on these boards… this is not a place for an agenda of trying to get Catholics to leave their church… that is why they have the rules and I am simply calling a spade and spade and I wasn’t even addressing you:thumbsup:

 

[BobP123]

Well, I was thinking more about explaining all this to people when I read what they write or hear them talk about this issue, but I guess I could carry a little statue into a Baptist church, put it in front of me and begin to pray. I am sure I would be given the opportunity to explain what I was doing before they kicked me out and performed an exorcism.

I see you’re getting the point. Very good, RAS.

 

[BobP123]

Let me get this straight: you’re saying Catholics pray TO pieces of wood, plaster and plastic? Expecing these man-made things to hear and answer? :nope:

I did not say ALL Catholics, did I? Certainly you have to concede that there are a few nutcakes, can’t you?

It is no scandal to those who understand what the communion of saints is really all about?

But why take that chance?

Do you?

Immaterial to the argument.

As for those who are leaving the Church, this is unfortunate but many (if not most) of those leaving are ignorant of what Catholicisim actually teaches.

And you know this for a fact? Where are your sources of this claim?

One only has to read through a few threads on this site to get a feel from former Catholics as to how poor their understanding actually is.

But I can make the same claim for current Catholics, can’t I?

As for those coming in, (80,000+ annually in the US alone), they are very aware of the very issues you speak of and understand them properly.

So everyone who comes in, automatically understands them according to your standards? What about my standards and moral values?

These folks are fired up for Jesus and His Church.

It is not necessary to be “fired” up for anything, last time I checked my catechism.

I’m sorry for the lost, but all in all, it’s not a bad trade.

Check out South America sometimes for a reality check.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

Likewise.

 

[FCEGM]

But why take that chance?

So you are the new iconoclast in the name of mutual understanding? We Catholics are to distance ourselves from veneration of the Blessed Mother and the Saints via the use of icons and statues because someone might be scandalized? Those who would be scandalized would be even moreso at the worship we give “Bread”; shall we dispense with Eucharistic adoration?

The faithful know Mary is not a statue, just as they know she is not God! They are not confused. The palpability of the statue impresses upon their consciousness the maternal presence through grace of Mary’s influence in their home or parish, similarly to having a relic of a Saint. Awareness of the Blessed Mother is more intense and changes the pattern of family and parochial devotion and practice. It is a sacramental presence. Because they (we) don’t look at the statue as the reality but the person represented, she becomes more present to them (us). If any Protestant is present when these devotions take place and doesn’t understand, then dialogue eliciting their attitudes and comparing them to Catholic ones is what is needed, not trying to hide or cover up anything; but Catholics who are simply expressing their love for the Blessed Virgin shouldn’t be inhibited. That’s what the Protestant doesn’t get – the love that’s going on, unless they’re non-judgmental and perceptive.

The reason for the “scandal” of popular religious culture is the judgmental, self-righteous looking down the nose with Bible-alone standards of those who do not accept fully the humanity graced within the Church. The unselfconscious expression of affection and piety is to be accepted rather than sanitized, and rather directed than suppressed by the clergy. (And we mustn’t be like an immigrant’s child embarrassed by the foreignness of his parents’ speech and ways.) Protestants who take scandal at this humanity simply do not sufficiently appreciate the Incarnation and should be challenged in their assumptions of criticism,

bringyou.to/apologetics/a81.htm

 

[Randy_Carson]

I did not say ALL Catholics, did I? Certainly you have to concede that there are a few nutcakes, can’t you?

That I do agree with!

But why take that chance?

Why take the chance of stifling someone else’s genuine devotion?

Immaterial to the argument.

I thought your understanding of that which you are arguing against would be at least mildly germane. You might be arguing out of misunderstanding…how do I know what you know?

And you know this for a fact? Where are your sources of this claim?

One: by talking with them. Former Catholics are woefully ignorant of Catholic doctrine, but to a (wo)man, they think they know Catholicism. Two: Logic. Why would anyone leave the true Church with full understanding? Those who leave are those who don’t fully appreciate what Jesus has built in the Church in fulfillment of His promise.

But I can make the same claim for current Catholics, can’t I?

Sadly, yes. However, this is irrelevant to the discussion. We’re speaking of people who leave the Church - not people who stay. And of course, there are ignorant Protestants, as well.

So everyone who comes in, automatically understands them according to your standards? What about my standards and moral values?

Automatically? No. They have spent a year in RCIA studying, reading, praying, discerning. It’s a start…and a far better one than walking down an aisle and saying the “sinner’s prayer” to “get saved”.

It is not necessary to be “fired” up for anything, last time I checked my catechism.

Being lukewarm isn’t such a good thing last time I checked my Bible. (cf. Rev. 3:16)

Check out South America sometimes for a reality check.

Sorry, this is a bit too vague for me…you’ll have to explain your point more explicity.

Likewise.

As always, hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[whatevergirl]

Im getting to much posts than i can handle. But about the protestant church. Martin Luther didnt want to seperate the church. He belived in the vatican.

The reason was that the popes and monks had sex, they sinned all the time. He attacked the people in the church.

The catholic church is not the same as it was.

Yes i have been intressted in the Opus Dei cause they took the vatican more seriously.

Muslims that are terrorists are the real muslims. The “secular” muslims are much like most christians. Choose their own laws and scriptures from the bible.

Muslims that are terrorists are real muslims you say? Wow…what a horrible statement to make. Is that like saying the ‘real’ Christians are those who blow up abortion clinics? Please be careful to say such terrible things about other people’s faiths. I know many muslims, and that statement of yours is completely untrue. (and unwarranted) They are radical Muslims, just like there are radical Christians (ie my example above) Although I do believe that Muhammed seemed like a violent person, and was teaching this to his followers…Muslims who are peaceful very much consider themselves Muslim.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Muslims that are terrorists are real muslims you say? Wow…what a horrible statement to make. Is that like saying the ‘real’ Christians are those who blow up abortion clinics? Please be careful to say such terrible things about other people’s faiths. I know many muslims, and that statement of yours is completely untrue. (and unwarranted) They are radical Muslims, just like there are radical Christians (ie my example above) Although I do believe that Muhammed seemed like a violent person, and was teaching this to his followers…Muslims who are peaceful very much consider themselves Muslim.

Possibly.

If your proposition is true, then the peaceful Muslims are either so indifferent or so afraid that they are standing silently on the sidelines while the more vocal minority (if it truly is the minority) hijacks the entire religion and culture.

If you are wrong, then we are at war.

Either way, we have a serious problem on our hands that isn’t going to be solved quickly or easily.

 

[whatevergirl]

Possibly.

If your proposition is true, then the peaceful Muslims are either so indifferent or so afraid that they are standing silently on the sidelines while the more vocal minority (if it truly is the minority) hijacks the entire religion and culture.

If you are wrong, then we are at war.

Either way, we have a serious problem on our hands that isn’t going to be solved quickly or easily.

I don’t disagree that that the Qu’ran does teach violence…to kill infidels…to stay away from Christians. In the middle east, yes, this is a battle that has gone on since the beginning of time…since Biblical times. I do think that one of the main problems that the ME has with the USA is our backing of Israel. The jealousy of Israel as a chosen country is also something stemming back to Biblical times. But, to say to a peaceful Muslim, that he/she isn’t really Muslim, is offensive to him/her. Pope JP2 was very gracious to people of all faiths–I think I learned from him, that being kind to others of different faiths, doesn’t in any way negate my love and adoration for Christ.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Very few “non-Catholics” would post here without wanting to “debate.”

You don’t know that.

 

[RRPAULS]

Yes. Exodus 25 is the basis of our Tabernacle, where we should find a more intimate contact with God.

Actually the OP makes legitimate points. Many Catholics indeed have too many idols. They worship statues, the priest, their own rosary beads, the buildings, the land, and one another. They have lost the proper focus altogether. It is up to people like the OP to continue to point this out and move people (NOT ONLY CATHOLICS) into the proper focus, and that is to the Almighty God.

That is not to say statues per se are wrong. That is not to say praying to Mary is wrong. But again keep in mind the First Commandment always. And it is FIRST for a reason.

Whether its first or last doesn’t matter, it’s a commandment from God. Your blinded by your narrowmindedness on this subject. Catholics do not worship Mary. Are you worshipping a fellow christian when you ask him to pray for you? Is not your prayer request a prayer itself? To Pray, To Petition is to ask for something, it is not necessarily a form of worship, and even when it is a form of worship it is not the highest form of worship. The highest form of worship is to physically eat the body blood soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ. Read John 6:>>.

 

[guanophore]

Many Catholics indeed have too many idols. They worship statues, the priest, their own rosary beads, the buildings, the land, and one another. They have lost the proper focus altogether.

Why do you think this?

 

[Church_Militant]

Yes. Exodus 25 is the basis of our Tabernacle, where we should find a more intimate contact with God.

Actually the OP makes legitimate points. Many Catholics indeed have too many idols. They worship statues, the priest, their own rosary beads, the buildings, the land, and one another. They have lost the proper focus altogether. It is up to people like the OP to continue to point this out and move people (NOT ONLY CATHOLICS) into the proper focus, and that is to the Almighty God

.

That is not to say statues per se are wrong. That is not to say praying to Mary is wrong. But again keep in mind the First Commandment always. And it is FIRST for a reason.That’s bunkum. You make a rash generalization here that is in no way supported by facts. I have not found any of that in the faithful Catholics that I hang out with.

Idolatry my foot…

I’m not buying that stuff even a little bit guys.
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.

 

[Church_Militant]

Well, this is from forum conduct:

(Do not view the discussion area as a vehicle for single-mindedly promoting an agenda.
Non-Catholics are welcome to participate but must be respectful of the faith of the Catholics participating on the board.)

These boards are not a place to play the game of “lets lead a troubled Catholic away from their faith” and posting an email address and telling the op to email oneself so that they may learn the truth and that truth is against the Catholic church? Then in my opinion you don’t belong on these boards… this is not a place for an agenda of trying to get Catholics to leave their church

… that is why they have the rules and I am simply calling a spade and spade and I wasn’t even addressing you:thumbsup:Kamz is absolutely correct on this one.

It falls under Banned Topics Policy # 8 Proselytizing Catholics or encouraging them to leave the Church

I don’t think that most of the folks who run off at the keyboard about our most holy faith are much good against the hard cold facts of history and the simple text of the Word of God.

If they were, then I wouldn’t be Catholic.

 

[Harsalter]

I am in the church, im not saying that the church doctrine is about other gods but idols. Remember when Moses went down from the mountain after he had made the 10 commandments? He saw that the people had made a statue of a calf, statues or other forms of idols to glorify God is forbidden.

And isnt saints idols? People to look up to like if they where something bigger than us?

You are no Catholic, this is very evident from the nonsense you have posted. And if you are, you are one of the poorest catechized Catholics I have ever witnessed in my short time as one.

I don’t mean to be uncharitable, but simply calling a spade a spade.