Im thinking of leaving the church

[BobP123]

And then God instructed Moses to make what? A statue of angels to go over His Ark. It’s NOT the statues that are bad.

It’s worshipping them as gods, as they did the calf.

Yes. Exodus 25 is the basis of our Tabernacle, where we should find a more intimate contact with God.

Actually the OP makes legitimate points. Many Catholics indeed have too many idols. They worship statues, the priest, their own rosary beads, the buildings, the land, and one another. They have lost the proper focus altogether. It is up to people like the OP to continue to point this out and move people (NOT ONLY CATHOLICS) into the proper focus, and that is to the Almighty God.

That is not to say statues per se are wrong. That is not to say praying to Mary is wrong. But again keep in mind the First Commandment always. And it is FIRST for a reason.

 

[kamz]

gods love is in my heart, one of my closest confidants is catholic. you must understand my position. I have learned enough that i can no longer remain silent about the catholic religion and its falsitivity(not sure its a word but you know what i mean). I have nothing against catholics, as my confidant proves. I truly enjoy the company of many of them. But i hate the sin, love the sinner. I would give my life that i might get you all to realize the truth, if it were possible i might even consider damning my own soul to save the Catholics. I love you guys and my heart constantly yearns to see you in Gods kingdom. But i must remain true to God and not condone what you do. Please understand what i mean.

The rules on the forums are very clear… non Catholics are Not allowed to use these forums as a way to push their own agenda… you are doing exactly that… you can debate and ask questions but it is clear you are not to try to get people to leave the Church… you can do that on your own time but not on these forums… moderators please take notice

 

[NotWorthy]

Yes. Exodus 25 is the basis of our Tabernacle, where we should find a more intimate contact with God.

Actually the OP makes legitimate points. Many Catholics indeed have too many idols. They worship statues, the priest, their own rosary beads, the buildings, the land, and one another. They have lost the proper focus altogether. It is up to people like the OP to continue to point this out and move people (NOT ONLY CATHOLICS) into the proper focus, and that is to the Almighty God.

That is not to say statues per se are wrong. That is not to say praying to Mary is wrong. But again keep in mind the First Commandment always. And it is FIRST for a reason.

Yes, an many of these same complainers about idolatry will answer other questions with, “Well, that was the OT covenant, we’re not bound to that anymore”. You can’t pick and choose.

In regards to some people worshipping statues, that would be a problem - a very big problem. But recently I’ve come to know some of those people very well. And I’ve come to realize that the people that “from first glance” appear to be Mary-worshippers are actually God-fearing people who always have Jesus very VERY close to their hearts. It seems that their devotion to Mary has drawn them much closer to God.

 

[runandsew]

I have full understanding. And no i havent left the catholic church. And dont think I ever will. Im just saying there are great flaws in it.

There are no flaws in its teachings, only in the personal sins of its members.
Remember, “Saint is not the opposite of sinner, there are only saved sinners and unsaved sinners.” - Peter Kreeft

 

[st_lucy]

Yes. Exodus 25 is the basis of our Tabernacle, where we should find a more intimate contact with God.

Actually the OP makes legitimate points. Many Catholics indeed have too many idols. They worship statues, the priest, their own rosary beads, the buildings, the land, and one another. They have lost the proper focus altogether. It is up to people like the OP to continue to point this out and move people (NOT ONLY CATHOLICS) into the proper focus, and that is to the Almighty God.

That is not to say statues per se are wrong. That is not to say praying to Mary is wrong. But again keep in mind the First Commandment always. And it is FIRST for a reason.

How can you say that they worship these things. Have they told you this themselves? If so then you are right to worry. But I have never heard of such a thing. If they have not personally told “yes I worship statues, the priest, my own rosary beads (which would be rather weird to worship a bead )” Than I would have to say you are in grave violation of the 8th commandment wouldn’t you say.

Since I am sure Jesus has not left the throne and God has not given you His ability to see into others hearts I would advise that you stay away from such presumptions of others, since presumption is a sin.

 

[BobP123]

How can you say that they worship these things. Have they told you this themselves? If so then you are right to worry. But I have never heard of such a thing. If they have not personally told “yes I worship statues, the priest, my own rosary beads (which would be rather weird to worship a bead )” Than I would have to say you are in grave violation of the 8th commandment wouldn’t you say.

Since I am sure Jesus has not left the throne and God has not given you His ability to see into others hearts I would advise that you stay away from such presumptions of others, since presumption is a sin.

And “being sure” of what Jesus intended is not?

Presumption is a sin but it’s the presumption that you are going to Heaven no matter what which is the sin. I do not presume what’s your mind, for example, except that you have given me at least one clue, that of trying to do God’s work and judging me perhaps?

 

[st_lucy]

And “being sure” of what Jesus intended is not?

Presumption is a sin but it’s the presumption that you are going to Heaven no matter what which is the sin. I do not presume what’s your mind, for example, except that you have given me at least one clue, that of trying to do God’s work and judging me perhaps?

When did I say anything that I was going straight to heaven? God willing I hope I do it is my goal after all, but sadly my days are filled with failed attempts of sinlessness.

I was not the one presuming any such thing on you I simply stated that you are baring false witness on other by stating that they worship everything but God. Did you or did you not state that? If not please forgive me for saying so, but you might wont to clear up what you meant when you stated this:

Many Catholics indeed have too many idols. They worship statues, the priest, their own rosary beads, the buildings, the land, and one another. They have lost the proper focus altogether.

 

[st_lucy]

And “being sure” of what Jesus intended is not?

Please explain this statement as well, since I truly don’t understand it.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Actually the OP makes legitimate points. Many Catholics indeed have too many idols. They worship statues, the priest, their own rosary beads, the buildings, the land, and one another. They have lost the proper focus altogether. It is up to people like the OP to continue to point this out and move people (NOT ONLY CATHOLICS) into the proper focus, and that is to the Almighty God.

Wow.

This sounds like a sweeping generalization. Do you have anything to support this claim?

I see a lot of mega-churches on TV…now there are some folks who are involved with “personality cults”. Swaggart, Hagee, Falwell, Robertson…they all have their followings, don’t they?

Protestants seem far more dependent upon the man in the pulpit than we Catholics do. Heck, I never know from one week to the next which of the priests at my medium-sized parish is saying the mass I attend. And it doesn’t really matter, does it?

That is not to say statues per se are wrong. That is not to say praying to Mary is wrong. But again keep in mind the First Commandment always. And it is FIRST for a reason.

No question.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Please answer the question, Bob. You–you!–say Catholics worship things other than God–and you give absolutely no proof of it.

And even if some misguided people did worship something other than God, individually, due to their own personal misunderstanding of Catholic teaching–that doesn’t mean the teaching is wrong.

Catholic teaching is quite clear. We worship GOD. We ‘honor’ (something quite different from worship) those worthy of honor–our parents (remember that commandment?), righteous people (as St. James says, the prayer of a righteous man availeth much). The ‘way’ we honor–1000 year old cathedrals–reflects the fact that the Church has been around 2000 years and has seen societal changes. The people of the 13th century (when most of these ‘cathedrals’ were built) did so in a time when it was believed (according to Scripture) that, as to God alone belongs glory, so His churches and everything dedicated to Him should be made as beautiful as possible–just as the Israelites felt under David and Solomon when they (under the teaching and influence of God) wished to make the Temple as beautiful and glorious as they could, to honor God).

The iconoclastic heresy circa the 7th century sought (in cherrypicking Scripture) to exalt the few verses about ‘graven images’ into their own god–the ‘simple god’ --much like the ‘god alone’ heresies that came later. They ignored the fact that when it came to worship, God never forbade images to be made–He forbade them to be worshipped.

Catholics do not ‘worship’ the saints, or the statues. So the idea that statues = idols is a nonstarter, right there.

You know, Catholics are pretty out front about what we worship and believe. It seems strange that if we DID really worship statues we wouldn’t say so, and give REASON for it. After all, we believe in the REAL PRESENCE and we say so, and give REASON, in the teeth of the Protestants telling us that the bread is just bread. Why would we stand firm on ONE teaching and then try to deny another? It isn’t logical.

 

[guanophore]

Doberman doesn’t sound as if he knows the teachings of the Catholic Church. Perhaps he needs to study Catholic teachings before leaving the church Christ gave to Peter (and us) and joining one of the numerous protestant churches who don’t have the fullness of the Gospels.
I say this in charity. Our separated brothers and sisters of the protestant churches may love Christ as much as any Catholic. I came from a fundamentalist upbringing and traveled through the maze of nondenoms to mainstream.
My fundamentalist mom said many times I was a closet Catholic even as a small child. And I had no idea what a Catholic was. So I truly feel the Spirit patiently moved me urging me always towards the Catholic Church. And here I will stay.

You are right, slyboots. Doberman is suffering a case of itching ears!

2 Tim 4:3-4
3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, 4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths.

 

[BobP123]

Wow.

This sounds like a sweeping generalization. Do you have anything to support this claim?

One doesn’t have to read too many message boards on Yahoo and elsewhere to realize the claim that I made which is MANY Catholics do pray to statues, etc. is not that far off.

But even if one were to see fellow Catholics praying to statues in public, even giving them the benefit of the doubt, it is still scandal, is it not? And a scandal which cannot be trivialized seeing that many are indeed leaving the Church.

 

[lanceg]

gods love is in my heart, one of my closest confidants is catholic. you must understand my position. I have learned enough that i can no longer remain silent about the catholic religion and its falsitivity(not sure its a word but you know what i mean). I have nothing against catholics, as my confidant proves. I truly enjoy the company of many of them. But i hate the sin, love the sinner. I would give my life that i might get you all to realize the truth, if it were possible i might even consider damning my own soul to save the Catholics. I love you guys and my heart constantly yearns to see you in Gods kingdom. But i must remain true to God and not condone what you do. Please understand what i mean.

I think you are very rude to join our site, and then make the comments you did about us not being your brothers, and that Christ is absent from our churches. You have a lot to learn.

 

[runandsew]

One doesn’t have to read too many message boards on Yahoo and elsewhere to realize the claim that I made which is MANY Catholics do pray to statues, etc. is not that far off.

But even if one were to see fellow Catholics praying to statues in public, even giving them the benefit of the doubt, it is still scandal, is it not? And a scandal which cannot be trivialized seeing that many are indeed leaving the Church.

They are not praying “TO” the statues of Jesus or the Saints, they are praying to either Jesus, or to the Saint which the statue represents. The statue is to help them remember who it is that they are praying to. The problem is not with the person doing the praying, it is with the person watching them and not fully understanding what they are doing, this is where sharing and explaining our faith comes into play.

 

[st_lucy]

One doesn’t have to read too many message boards on Yahoo and elsewhere to realize the claim that I made which is MANY Catholics do pray to statues, etc. is not that far off.

But even if one were to see fellow Catholics praying to statues in public, even giving them the benefit of the doubt, it is still scandal, is it not? And a scandal which cannot be trivialized seeing that many are indeed leaving the Church.

What is scandal is the idea that you believe you can assume what they are thinking without asking them.

You stated in your first post the 1st commandment which is good but like I stated don’t go forgetting the rest the 8th commandment states “Thou shall not bear false witness” When you make such great generalization because you are perceiving that one is doing something does not make is so. You are than telling others that you saw so and so worshiping a statute because you witnessed so and so praying before it. I am just saying before you spread such lies I would first advise you to ask so and so if that is exactly what they are doing. Other wise you are spreading lies about him behind their back.

 

[BobP123]

They are not praying “TO” the statues of Jesus or the Saints, they are praying to either Jesus, or to the Saint which the statue represents. The statue is to help them remember who it is that they are praying to.

One would hope that is true. However, you know what they say about outward appearances, don’t you?

The problem is not with the person doing the praying, it is with the person watching them and not fully understanding what they are doing, this is where sharing and explaining our faith comes into play.

Now you are making claims that there are people have nothing to do perhaps but watch people praying in front of statues? Ah, I see. Get them to watch you and then try to explain what you’re trying to do. Yes, I can see converting them in this manner alright.

 

[runandsew]

One would hope that is true. However, you know what they say about outward appearances, don’t you?

Now you are making claims that there are people have nothing to do perhaps but watch people praying in front of statues? Ah, I see. Get them to watch you and then try to explain what you’re trying to do. Yes, I can see converting them in this manner alright.

Well, I was thinking more about explaining all this to people when I read what they write or hear them talk about this issue, but I guess I could carry a little statue into a Baptist church, put it in front of me and begin to pray. I am sure I would be given the opportunity to explain what I was doing before they kicked me out and performed an exorcism.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

specops777:

gods love is in my heart, one of my closest confidants is catholic.

Truth cannot contradict truth.

If God’s love is in your heart then you would not promote hate propaganda against the Catholic Church. As for your sudden “appearance” on CAF, it was only a matter of time before one of you showed up to make sure Doberman didn’t start doubting your organization.

All you other posters: this is not about disagreements on doctrine. Imho that website to which Doberman referred us has the hallmarks of cult activity. The good news is that there is help for folks who are caught up in the bondage of hatred driven by peer pressure.

At the very least, the Catholic Church has pastoral care centres everywhere. There are some other routes to help at the links shown below. Also, since many of the techniques used by cults to ensnare their victims are illegal, a quick phone call to the police will get you or your loved one out quick and start the ball rolling to bring the perpetrators to justice.

Likely some of the victims show up here as a kind of rite of passage. Karl Keating once eavesdropped on a list of anti-Catholic sites. He said that considerable caution was passed on to folks on those sites about CAF because there were so many very well informed apologetics over here. If someone were able to disrupt this site or even gain converts to their cult from this site it would be an instant status-gaining event to be highly prized in an environment where status is so difficult to attain.

Is someone trying to influence you? Check out the influence continuum.

At the top of the Influence Continuum you will find choice respecting tactics… In the middle you will find compliance gaining techniques that are persuasive and manipulative… At the bottom of the continuum you will find destructive controlling techniques designed to isolate you from normal social supports and reality testing.

I am not familiar with what resources are available for those in the grip of cult bondage, but a brief google turned up this website which seems to have a lot of information.

F.A.C.T.net

By confusing, intimidating and silencing their victims, those who profit from these systems evade exposure and prosecution for actions recognized as harmful and which are illegal in most countries such as: fraud, false imprisonment, undue influence, involuntary servitude, intentional infliction of emotional distress, outrageous conduct and other tortuous acts.

continued…

 

[Ani_Ibi]

If most of Robert Jay Lifton’s eight point model of thought reform is being used in a cultic organization, it is most likely a dangerous and destructive cult.

1. ENVIRONMENT CONTROL. Limitation of many/all forms of communication with those outside the group. Books, magazines, letters and visits with friends and family are taboo. “Come out and be separate!”

1. MYSTICAL MANIPULATION. The potential convert to the group becomes convinced of the higher purpose and special calling of the group through a profound encounter / experience, for example, through an alleged miracle or prophetic word of those in the group.

1. DEMAND FOR PURITY. An explicit goal of the group is to bring about some kind of change, whether it be on a global, social, or personal level. “Perfection is possible if one stays with the group and is committed.”

1. CULT OF CONFESSION. The unhealthy practice of self disclosure to members in the group. Often in the context of a public gathering in the group, admitting past sins and imperfections, even doubts about the group and critical thoughts about the integrity of the leaders.

1. SACRED SCIENCE. The group’s perspective is absolutely true and completely adequate to explain EVERYTHING. The doctrine is not subject to amendments or question. ABSOLUTE conformity to the doctrine is required.

1. LOADED LANGUAGE. A new vocabulary emerges within the context of the group. Group members “think” within the very abstractand narrow parameters of the group’s doctrine. The terminology sufficiently stops members from thinking critically by reinforcing a “black and white” mentality. Loaded terms and clichés prejudice thinking.

1. DOCTRINE OVER PERSON. Pre-group experience and group experience are narrowly and decisively interpreted through the absolute doctrine, even when experience contradicts the doctrine.

1. **DISPENSING OF EXISTENCE. **Salvation is possible only in the group. Those who leave the group are doomed.

continued…

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Cults are driven by mind control. How does mind control work?

TACTIC 1
Increase suggestibility and “soften up” the individual through specific hypnotic or other suggestibility-increasing techniques such as:Extended audio, visual, verbal, or tactile fixation drills, Excessive exact repetition of routine activities, Sleep restriction and/or Nutritional restriction.
TACTIC 2 Establish control over the person’s social environment, time and sources of social support by a system of often-excessive rewards and punishments. Social isolation is promoted. Contact with family and friends is abridged, as is contact with persons who do not share group-approved attitudes. Economic and other dependence on the group is fostered.
TACTIC 3 **Prohibit disconfirming information **and non supporting opinions in group communication. Rules exist about permissible topics to discuss with outsiders. Communication is highly controlled. An “in-group” language is usually constructed.
TACTIC 4 **Make the person re-evaluate the most central aspects of his or her experience of self **and prior conduct in negative ways. Efforts are designed to destabilize and undermine the subject’s basic consciousness, reality awareness, world view, emotional control and defense mechanisms. The subject is guided to reinterpret his or her life’s history and adopt a new version of causality.
TACTIC 5 Create a sense of powerlessness by subjecting the person to intense and frequent actions and situations which undermine the person’s confidence in himself and his judgment.
TACTIC 6 Create strong aversive emotional arousals in the subject by use of nonphysical punishments such as intense humiliation, loss of privilege, social isolation, social status changes, intense guilt, anxiety, manipulation and other techniques.
TACTIC 7 **Intimidate the person **with the force of group-sanctioned secular psychological threats. For example, it may be suggested or implied that failure to adopt the approved attitude, belief or consequent behavior will lead to severe punishment or dire consequences such as physical or mental illness, the reappearance of a prior physical illness, drug dependence, economic collapse, social failure, divorce, disintegration, failure to find a mate, etc.

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