Immaculate Conception - Dec 8

[porthos11]

I would be most interested to see that notation. Someone posted a reference to canon law, but, it did not specify that it was a liturgical day.

Fine.

**Can. 202 §1. In law, a day is understood as a period consisting of 24 continuous hours and begins at midnight unless other provision is expressly made
**

Furthermore, there is no such thing as a two-for-one deal when it comes to fulfilling the obligation. For example, when Christmas Eve falls on a Sunday, the evening Mass on that day only satisfies the Christmas obligation, not the Sunday obligation.

I think it has been beaten to death already that there is no “two-for-one” deal and that everyone agrees with it.

In order to fulfill the obligation, the readings must be from the propers of that day. Therefore, you fulfill your obligation on Saturday evening, for the fourth Sunday of Advent up until before the vigil Mass for Christmas Eve, Sunday evening.

This is a common misconception. The readings have nothing to do with the obligation. The important thing is that one attends Mass. This is allowable because Canon Law states that attendance at Mass or Divine Liturgy at any Catholic rite the evening before satisfies the obligation (Can. 1248). Other than that, Canon Law says nothing about the nature or the readings of the Mass. What one must do is attend Mass.

Therefore, if one fails to attend the Fourth Sunday of Advent Mass in the Daytime, but attends the Christmas Eve Mass in the evening of Dec 24, then attends Mass AGAIN on the 25th, both the Fourth Sunday and Christmas obligations are fulfilled.

The same thing works this year for the Immaculate Conception. If one attends Mass on Saturday evening Dec. 8 and it happens to be the vigil Mass for Sunday, you will have the Sunday readings. **But ***this satisfies the obligation for the Immaculate Conception, December 8. It does NOT satisfy the Sunday obligation. *You will have to go to Mass again on Sunday, Dec. 9 to satisfy your Sunday obligation. The readings will be the same.

 

[benedictgal]

Fine.

**Can. 202 §1. In law, a day is understood as a period consisting of 24 continuous hours and begins at midnight unless other provision is expressly made
**

I think it has been beaten to death already that there is no “two-for-one” deal and that everyone agrees with it.

This is a common misconception. The readings have nothing to do with the obligation. The important thing is that one attends Mass. This is allowable because Canon Law states that attendance at Mass or Divine Liturgy at any Catholic rite the evening before satisfies the obligation (Can. 1248). Other than that, Canon Law says nothing about the nature or the readings of the Mass. What one must do is attend Mass.

Therefore, if one fails to attend the Fourth Sunday of Advent Mass in the Daytime, but attends the Christmas Eve Mass in the evening of Dec 24, then attends Mass AGAIN on the 25th, both the Fourth Sunday and Christmas obligations are fulfilled.

The same thing works this year for the Immaculate Conception. If one attends Mass on Saturday evening Dec. 8 and it happens to be the vigil Mass for Sunday, you will have the Sunday readings. **But **this satisfies the obligation for the Immaculate Conception, December 8. It does NOT satisfy the Sunday obligation. You will have to go to Mass again on Sunday, Dec. 9 to satisfy your Sunday obligation. The readings will be the same.

I still believe that you are reading the citation incorrectly. The observance of Sunday, at least from a liturgical standpoint, begins at 4PM on Saturday with the celebration of the anticipated Sunday vigil. Once that vigil is begun, then you are no longer on the calendar day but on the liturgical day.

The readings do make a big difference. The readings need to be from that particular day in order to fulfill the obligation. Therefore, the rector of the Cathedral (who is also the diocesan director of Divine Worship) was correct in his ruling.

 

[porthos11]

I still believe that you are reading the citation incorrectly. The observance of Sunday, at least from a liturgical standpoint, begins at 4PM on Saturday with the celebration of the anticipated Sunday vigil. Once that vigil is begun, then you are no longer on the calendar day but on the liturgical day.

We are referring to the day as a matter of law. The law specifically indicates midnight to midnight. You are citing the General Norms on the Calendar, which states that the “observance” begins on evening (not 4 PM specifically, although that can already count), but even the General Norms state that the liturgical day runs from midnight to midnight. “Observance” does not mean an end to the current liturgical day, which ends at 23:59:59, even on Saturdays.

Anticipated Sunday Mass on Saturday, Dec. 8 satisfies the Immaculate Conception obligation, but one is required to go to Sunday Mass the next day.

The readings do make a big difference. The readings need to be from that particular day in order to fulfill the obligation. Therefore, the rector of the Cathedral (who is also the diocesan director of Divine Worship) was correct in his ruling.

No, they do not. The specific indication of “any Catholic rite” makes that clear (since other Catholic rites do not have the same readings, or even the same Holy Day as there are different calendars). There is absolutely no law that makes the readings a factor in the fulfillment of the obligation. Under Canon Law, no other restriction is to be read into what is written. This is a liturgical myth that has no basis in law.

 

[tradcathconvert]

Our cathedral bulletin, mention the Holy Day of Obligation, had this today:

“Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary
The Immaculate Conception is the Patroness of
Our Nation, Our Diocese, and Our Parish”

It has been my understanding that since the Immaculate Conception is the Patroness of the U.S., the obligation is not dropped in the U.S. if the Feast occurs on Saturday or Monday. Christmas is the other holyday that observes the rule about the obligation not being dropped. Either that changed, my understanding was wrong, or some priests menitoned in this thread were wrong.

 

[benedictgal]

We are referring to the day as a matter of law. The law specifically indicates midnight to midnight. You are citing the General Norms on the Calendar, which states that the “observance” begins on evening (not 4 PM specifically, although that can already count), but even the General Norms state that the liturgical day runs from midnight to midnight. “Observance” does not mean an end to the current liturgical day, which ends at 23:59:59, even on Saturdays.

Anticipated Sunday Mass on Saturday, Dec. 8 satisfies the Immaculate Conception obligation, but one is required to go to Sunday Mass the next day.

No, they do not. The specific indication of “any Catholic rite” makes that clear (since other Catholic rites do not have the same readings, or even the same Holy Day as there are different calendars). There is absolutely no law that makes the readings a factor in the fulfillment of the obligation. Under Canon Law, no other restriction is to be read into what is written. This is a liturgical myth that has no basis in law.

You are wrong. The Mass must have the propers and the readings associated with that feast in order for it to satisfy the requirement. Even wedding Nuptial Masses celebrated from the time of the anticipated Sunday vigil must have the wedding readings if the Sunday obligation is to be required.

Tomorrow, I will contact a canon lawyer who is also a liturgist. Your notions are not correct. As far as liturgical myths are concerned, that is not the case with this.

 

[porthos11]

You are wrong. The Mass must have the propers and the readings associated with that feast in order for it to satisfy the requirement. Even wedding Nuptial Masses celebrated from the time of the anticipated Sunday vigil must have the wedding readings if the Sunday obligation is to be required.

Tomorrow, I will contact a canon lawyer who is also a liturgist. Your notions are not correct. As far as liturgical myths are concerned, that is not the case with this.

And I insist that I’m right. The Readings have nothing to do with the satisfaction of obligation.

Akin also says so.

 

[ddeluna]

I can’t wait to see how this drama unfolds! :whacky: :hypno:

 

[Digitonomy]

"pug:

I had previously thought that any mass on the day of Dec 8 would meet the obligation for that holy day, but the AAA says otherwise.

I’m afraid I can’t agree with what AAA said in this case. Mr Plum linked to another AAA by Michelle Arnold last year discussing Christmas. Unfortunately, that AAA doesn’t really explain why she thinks this can’t be done. Furthermore, it’s contradicted by what her colleague Jimmy Akin wrote at about the same time. Jimmy provides the most detail on this topic, and I agree with his straightforward reading of the canon in question. Nonetheless, while I think you can attend a Saturday evening mass to fulfill your obligation, it would be appropriate for people to attend a mass specific to the holy day when possible, to benefit from the readings and liturgy the Church has chosen for that celebration.

This is so wild…why are all the dioceses not in agreement with this?

There may be confusion due to the rule for some other holy days that the obligation is abrogated if they fall on Saturday or Monday. This is not the case for the Immaculate Conception.

I think a bishop may give dispensation from a law for good reason, but whether falling on Saturday or Monday can qualify as a good reason (when this option was considered, accepted for other holy days, and rejected for the Immaculate Conception), I am doubtful. I believe the following is particular law for the United States:

In addition to Sunday, the days to be observed as holy days of obligation in the Latin Rite dioceses of the United States of America, in conformity with canon 1246, are as follows:

January 1, the solemnity of Mary, Mother of God;
Thursday of the Sixth Week of Easter, the solemnity of the Ascension;
August 15, the solemnity of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary;
November 1, the solemnity of All Saints;
December 8, the solemnity of the Immaculate Conception;
December 25, the solemnity of the Nativity of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

Whenever January 1, the solemnity of Mary, Mother of God, or August 15, the solemnity of the Assumption, or November 1, the solemnity of All Saints, falls on a Saturday or on a Monday, the precept to attend Mass is abrogated.

 

[benedictgal]

And I insist that I’m right. The Readings have nothing to do with the satisfaction of obligation.

Akin also says so.

I just got through talking to the USCCB Committee on Divine Worship. The anticipated Sunday vigil Mass on late Saturday afternoon/evening does not fulfill the obligation for the Feast of the Immaculate Conception. These are two different Masses altogether, meaning that the propers and the readings must be from that day.

Furthermore, the USCCB Committee on Divine Worship told me that in the United States, December 8th is a Holy Day of Obligation because it is our patronal feast day. Therefore, we are obligated to attend Mass that day.

I’ll try to get more of a specific citation for you,.but, right now, I’m in mourning because one of my dachshunds just died and today would have been his birthday. Nonetheless, I gave you my word that I would have something. I’ll get more specific later on; I’m just not feeling too good.

 

[benedictgal]

Earlier this morning, I called the USCCB Committee on Divine Worship to settle this debate. They told me that the anticipated Sunday vigil Mass (Saturday late afternoon/evening) did not fulfill the requirement for the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception. You must either go to Mass on Friday evening (vigil) or throughout the day on Saturday (prior to the start of the anticipated Sunday vigil Mass). Furthermore, even though it falls on a Saturday, it is still a holy day of Obligation in the United States because it is our patronal feast day.

I hope this helps clear any confusion.

 

[lak611]

And I insist that I’m right. The Readings have nothing to do with the satisfaction of obligation.

Akin also says so.

I believe you are correct. According to canon law, we fulfill the obligation by attending at any Catholic rite. If I went to Eastern Catholic Divine Liturgy, the readings would be completely different, as they have different holy days than Latins do and their Divine Liturgy is just as valid.

 

[JDHallKY]

The confusion on this issue is understandable, but very frustrating.

Porthos is exactly right. Readings have NOTHING to do with satisfying the obligation. When questions are asked to the USCCB or even the AAA forum, what is apparently happening is that the person answering the question is assuming that the question being asked is whether attending a vigil Mass on Saturday night fulfills BOTH obligations. That’s the question they get most often and the one they assume they are being asked unless it is made very clear to them that it’s not.

Clearly, there is no two-for-one deal. If I attend Mass on Saturday night (without having attended earlier in the day or Friday night), I have satisfied my Immaculate Conception obligation. However, my Sunday obligation still remains, so I must go again on Sunday.

 

[benedictgal]

The confusion on this issue is understandable, but very frustrating.

Porthos is exactly right. Readings have NOTHING to do with satisfying the obligation. When questions are asked to the USCCB or even the AAA forum, what is apparently happening is that the person answering the question is assuming that the question being asked is whether attending a vigil Mass on Saturday night fulfills BOTH obligations. That’s the question they get most often and the one they assume they are being asked unless it is made very clear to them that it’s not.

Clearly, there is no two-for-one deal. If I attend Mass on Saturday night (without having attended earlier in the day or Friday night), I have satisfied my Immaculate Conception obligation. However, my Sunday obligation still remains, so I must go again on Sunday.

The USCCB Committee on Divine Worship specifically stated that the anticipated Sunday vigil (Saturday late afternoon/evening) does not fulfill the obligation for the Feast of the Immaculate Conception. The readings and the propers must be for the Holy Day of Obligation in order to satisfy the obligation. What is so hard to understand about that?

However, nothing prevents you from attending Mass Friday evening or Saturday (prior to the anticipated Sunday vigil Mass) and then going again to the Sunday vigil. I did that when Christmas Eve fell on a Sunday.

 

[lak611]

The USCCB Committee on Divine Worship specifically stated that the anticipated Sunday vigil (Saturday late afternoon/evening) does not fulfill the obligation for the Feast of the Immaculate Conception. The readings and the propers must be for the Holy Day of Obligation in order to satisfy the obligation. What is so hard to understand about that?

That is not correct. I could go to Eastern Catholic Divine Liturgy on Saturday and fulfill my obligation for Immaculate Conception even though it may not even be a Holy Day for the Eastern Rite so their readings would be completely different. Any Catholic Rite fulfills the obligation, irregardless of the readings.

 

[benedictgal]

That is not correct. I could go to Eastern Catholic Divine Liturgy on Saturday and fulfill my obligation for Immaculate Conception even though it may not even be a Holy Day for the Eastern Rite so their readings would be completely different. Any Catholic Rite fulfills the obligation, irregardless of the readings.

Okay. I just got through talking to the USCCB Committee on Divine Worship (whose office actually recognized my voice ). They said that in order to fulfill the obligation for the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception (December 8th) the Mass must be for that feast, meaning the prayers and readings must be proper to the Solemnity. Going to Mass on Saturday evening and then returning on Sunday morning does not count for the December 8th obligation. They were a little frustrated because they thought that they had made themselves perfectly clear on this matter when I first called.

I told them that I had to settle this issue with some friends. Even though we don’t agree on things, I still consider you my friends.

 

[jmcrae]

Okay. I just got through talking to the USCCB Committee on Divine Worship (whose office actually recognized my voice ). They said that in order to fulfill the obligation for the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception (December 8th) the Mass must be for that feast, meaning the prayers and readings must be proper to the Solemnity. Going to Mass on Saturday evening and then returning on Sunday morning does not count for the December 8th obligation. They were a little frustrated because they thought that they had made themselves perfectly clear on this matter when I first called.

I told them that I had to settle this issue with some friends. Even though we don’t agree on things, I still consider you my friends.

Thank you; that’s good information to have. Obviously, now that you have gone to the source of the documents, we can believe their interpretation of what they themselves have written.

 

[FelixRoma]

The chancery of the Diocese of Charlotte confirmed it was, infact, still a Holy Day of Obligation. They’re contacting my pastor.

I hope it’s not too late.

 

[SenorBells]

That is not correct. I could go to Eastern Catholic Divine Liturgy on Saturday and fulfill my obligation for Immaculate Conception even though it may not even be a Holy Day for the Eastern Rite so their readings would be completely different. Any Catholic Rite fulfills the obligation, irregardless of the readings.

The solemnity is being celebrated in at least the Byzantine/Ruthenian tradition. That said I totally agree. Even if it wasn’t, if one went to the DL on Saturday morning, it would certainly satisfy the requirement.

In my Latin Rite parishes we have 8 Masses/sunday. They are going to try to satisfy that demand with a Mass on Friday night and one on Saturday morning. It’s going to be a zoo with all the “special people” (who I normally avoid) on display. Instead I will go to my Eastern parish for the DL.

 

[SenorBells]

The chancery of the Diocese of Charlotte confirmed it was, infact, still a Holy Day of Obligation. They’re contacting my pastor.

I hope it’s not too late.

Whoa, cool. Please let us know how it turns out.

 

[SenorBells]

The USCCB Committee on Divine Worship specifically stated that the anticipated Sunday vigil (Saturday late afternoon/evening) does not fulfill the obligation for the Feast of the Immaculate Conception. The readings and the propers must be for the Holy Day of Obligation in order to satisfy the obligation. What is so hard to understand about that?

However, nothing prevents you from attending Mass Friday evening or Saturday (prior to the anticipated Sunday vigil Mass) and then going again to the Sunday vigil. I did that when Christmas Eve fell on a Sunday.

You’re confused…

One obviously would not satisfy the requirement by attending the Saturday vigil Mass. It clearly follows that they also wouldn’t satisfy the requirements by attending one of the Eastern Divine Liturgies as a Saturday vigil.

On the other hand, attending a Divine Liturgy as a Friday night vigil or on Saturday (non-vigil) would most certainly satisfy the requirement – different readings or not. The “different readings” is not the arbiter in this situation.