Immaculate Conception - Dec 8

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SenorBells said:
You’re confused…

One obviously would not satisfy the requirement by attending the Saturday vigil Mass. It clearly follows that they also wouldn’t satisfy the requirements by attending one of the Eastern Divine Liturgies as a Saturday vigil.

On the other hand, attending a Divine Liturgy as a Friday night vigil or on Saturday (non-vigil) would most certainly satisfy the requirement – different readings or not. The “different readings” is not the arbiter in this situation.
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Senor Bells, I am not confused. Perhaps you have not read all of the posts in this thread. Someone kept insisting that the anticipated Sunday vigil Mass (celebrated late afternoon/evening on Saturday) would fulfill the requirement for the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception. According that that person’s logic, you could attend Saturday evening’s vigil (even though it is already for Sunday) to fulfill the Holy Day obligation and then return to Mass on Sunday morning (to fulfill Sunday’s obligation). In fact, the person was very emphatic that the readings didn’t matter.

Bottom line is that in order for the Holy Day to be fulfilled, the Mass must have the prayers and readings proper to the solemnity. This comes straight from the USCCB Committee on Divine Worship.
 
SenorBells said:
On the other hand, attending a Divine Liturgy as a Friday night vigil or on Saturday (non-vigil) would most certainly satisfy the requirement – different readings or not. The “different readings” is not the arbiter in this situation.
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Okay, so here’s what I am understanding, so far:

The readings at Divine Liturgy, though not the same as those in the Latin Rite, would still be suitable for the day - it would still be a Mass in honour of the Immaculate Conception of Mary. That’s the essential point. They don’t have to have the exact same readings, but they should be holding an Immaculate Conception Mass, whatever that translates to in their liturgy.

A Mass that is intended to be a Sunday Mass (regardless of which Rite it may be in) does not satisfy the obligation for the Immaculate Conception, *even if it occurs on the same calendar date. *

Am I reading it right, so far?
 
benedictgal said:
Senor Bells, I am not confused. Perhaps you have not read all of the posts in this thread. Someone kept insisting that the anticipated Sunday vigil Mass (celebrated late afternoon/evening on Saturday) would fulfill the requirement for the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception. According that that person’s logic, you could attend Saturday evening’s vigil (even though it is already for Sunday) to fulfill the Holy Day obligation and then return to Mass on Sunday morning (to fulfill Sunday’s obligation). In fact, the person was very emphatic that the readings didn’t matter.

Bottom line is that in order for the Holy Day to be fulfilled, the Mass must have the prayers and readings proper to the solemnity. This comes straight from the USCCB Committee on Divine Worship.
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So are you saying that the Code of Canon Law is wrong and that the Divine Liturgy of the Eastern Catholic Church is invalid for fulfilling an obligation for a Latin Catholic?
 
jmcrae said:
Okay, so here’s what I am understanding, so far:

The readings at Divine Liturgy, though not the same as those in the Latin Rite, would still be suitable for the day - it would still be a Mass in honour of the Immaculate Conception of Mary. That’s the essential point. They don’t have to have the exact same readings, but they should be holding an Immaculate Conception Mass, whatever that translates to in their liturgy.

A Mass that is intended to be a Sunday Mass (regardless of which Rite it may be in) does not satisfy the obligation for the Immaculate Conception, *even if it occurs on the same calendar date. *

Am I reading it right, so far?
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I believe you are; however, in the Latin Rite, the readings do count, as the USCCB Committee on Divine Worship has been telling me during both calls. What I should have made clear was that I was referring to the LATIN RITE when writing my posts.
 
lak611 said:
Or one could go to a morning Mass for Immaculate Conception and the late afternoon/early evening Mass and fulfill both Mass obligations by attending those 2 Masses on Saturday. For instance, if your parish has a 9 am Mass on Dec. 8, it would be the Immaculate Conception Mass. Then you could go again to the 5 pm Mass, which would be for the First Sunday of Advent. You could receive Communion at both Masses.
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you can also go to the regular Saturday evening Mass, which “counts” for the Holy Day Dec. 8, but you MUST go again Sunday morning for the 2nd Sunday of Avent. If your parish has Mass on Friday evening or Saturday during the day, those also “count” for the Holy Day.
 
benedictgal said:
I believe you are; however, in the Latin Rite, the readings do count, as the USCCB Committee on Divine Worship has been telling me during both calls. What I should have made clear was that I was referring to the LATIN RITE when writing my posts.
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But even though I am in the Latin Rite, I am allowed to fulfill my Mass obligations in any Catholic Rite.
 
puzzleannie said:
you can also go to the regular Saturday evening Mass, which “counts” for the Holy Day Dec. 8, but you MUST go again Sunday morning for the 2nd Sunday of Avent. If your parish has Mass on Friday evening or Saturday during the day, those also “count” for the Holy Day.
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That’s what I thought.
 
benedictgal said:
I believe you are; however, in the Latin Rite, the readings do count, as the USCCB Committee on Divine Worship has been telling me during both calls. What I should have made clear was that I was referring to the LATIN RITE when writing my posts.
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Okay, thanks!! 👍
 
puzzleannie said:
you can also go to the regular Saturday evening Mass, which “counts” for the Holy Day Dec. 8, but you MUST go again Sunday morning for the 2nd Sunday of Avent. If your parish has Mass on Friday evening or Saturday during the day, those also “count” for the Holy Day.
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Puzzleannie, you are wrong. The USCCB Committee on Divine Worship emphatically told me that the regular anticipated Sunday vigil Mass (which is celebrated late afternoon/evening on Saturday) does not fulfill the obligation for the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception. What you posted is inaccurate and misleading.

In order to fulifill the obligation for the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception, you need to attend the anticipated vigil Mass on Friday evening or Mass on Saturday morning/early afternoon.

When discussing this with the USCCB Committee on Divine Worship, I asked them this follow-up question: Is this similar to what happens when December 24th falls on a Sunday, wherein you fulfill your Sunday obligation by assisting at Mass at the Saturday Vigil up through before the time of the Chrsitmas Eve Vigil Mass? Their reply was Yes. The same principle applies.

As far as the DL is concerned, I never mentioned anything about that. Since my familiarity is with the Latin Rite, I have given answers specific to the Latin Rite.
 
puzzleannie said:
you can also go to the regular Saturday evening Mass, which “counts” for the Holy Day Dec. 8, but you MUST go again Sunday morning for the 2nd Sunday of Avent. If your parish has Mass on Friday evening or Saturday during the day, those also “count” for the Holy Day.
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Actually we’ve just found out that this is not the case. In order to fulfill the obligation for the Immaculate Conception, the Mass must be intentionally an Immaculate Conception Mass; not the Sunday Mass that is held on Saturday evenings.

This is coming directly from the US Conference of Bishops, by telephone - Benedictgal has telephoned them several times to clear up exactly this question, and they are saying No, the Saturday Mass in the evening does not count even if you go to Mass again on Sunday morning.

So, not only is there no “two for one,” there is not even any “two for two” - in order to “count” it has to be exactly the Mass of the Immaculate Conception and no other.
 
lak611 said:
But even though I am in the Latin Rite, I am allowed to fulfill my Mass obligations in any Catholic Rite.
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Yes - as long as it is their equivalent of the same thing, so for example, to count for Sunday, the DL has to be the Sunday liturgy, and to count for the Immaculate Conception, it has to be the DL version of the Immaculate Conception liturgy - etc.
 
jmcrae said:
Actually we’ve just found out that this is not the case. In order to fulfill the obligation for the Immaculate Conception, the Mass must be intentionally an Immaculate Conception Mass; not the Sunday Mass that is held on Saturday evenings.

This is coming directly from the US Conference of Bishops, by telephone - Benedictgal has telephoned them several times to clear up exactly this question, and they are saying No, the Saturday Mass in the evening does not count even if you go to Mass again on Sunday morning.

So, not only is there no “two for one,” there is not even any “two for two” - in order to “count” it has to be exactly the Mass of the Immaculate Conception and no other.
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Well, AAA says differently.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=202896

And, as wonderful and reliable as Benedictgal may be, we do not have an answer from USCCB, we have her hearsay about their answer to an unrecorded (apparently very complicated and certainly detail oreinted) question. On the other side we have quotes from canon law and multiple other wonderful and reliable folk’s hearsay.
 
jmcrae said:
Actually we’ve just found out that this is not the case. In order to fulfill the obligation for the Immaculate Conception, the Mass must be intentionally an Immaculate Conception Mass; not the Sunday Mass that is held on Saturday evenings.

This is coming directly from the US Conference of Bishops, by telephone - Benedictgal has telephoned them several times to clear up exactly this question, and they are saying No, the Saturday Mass in the evening does not count even if you go to Mass again on Sunday morning.

So, not only is there no “two for one,” there is not even any “two for two” - in order to “count” it has to be exactly the Mass of the Immaculate Conception and no other.
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This contradicts the Code of Canon Law. The day counts, not the readings. That is why the Divine Liturgy fulfills the obligation. One does not need any excuses to attend Divine Liturgy. It is valid for a Latin Catholic to attend Divine Liturgy to fulfill any Latin Rite obligation.
 
jmcrae said:
Yes - as long as it is their equivalent of the same thing, so for example, to count for Sunday, the DL has to be the Sunday liturgy, and to count for the Immaculate Conception, it has to be the DL version of the Immaculate Conception liturgy - etc.
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Eastern Churches have different holy days. If one attends an Eastern Church on a day that is not a holy day in that Eastern Church but is a holy day in the Latin Church, it still counts as fulfilling the obligation.
 
jmcrae said:
As far as I know, there is no Imprimatur on the Ask An Apologist web site. They have been found to be incorrect, before, as well.

Benedictgal has just spoken directly to the office of the Bishops in charge of creating the legislation; I think that carries a great deal more weight.
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If we had the statement from the USCCB, yes. But we do not and “there is no Imprimatur on the” post from Benedictgal. Canon law is there and (clearly, ok maybe not) readable.
 
CuriousInIL said:
Well, AAA says differently.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=202896

And, as wonderful and reliable as Benedictgal may be, we do not have an answer from USCCB, we have her hearsay about their answer to an unrecorded (apparently very complicated and certainly detail oreinted) question. On the other side we have quotes from canon law and multiple other wonderful and reliable folk’s hearsay.
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I would not be making the expense of repeatedly calling the USCCB if this issue were not important. As wonderful as AAA is, it does not speak with the same authority as the USCCB Committee on Divine Worship. AAA is not the voice of the Church. The USCCB, for whatever flaws it may have, does have the authority. It is somewhat insulting to insuate that hearsay is involved simply because I have taken it upon myself to give accurate information.
 
benedictgal said:
I would not be making the expense of repeatedly calling the USCCB if this issue were not important. As wonderful as AAA is, it does not speak with the same authority as the USCCB Committee on Divine Worship. AAA is not the voice of the Church. The USCCB, for whatever flaws it may have, does have the authority. It is somewhat insulting to insuate that hearsay is involved simply because I have taken it upon myself to give accurate information.
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I mean no insult at all and apologize to the extent that anything I said could be construed as such.

Hearsay as I used it simply means “something heard from another.”
 
lak611 said:
This contradicts the Code of Canon Law. The day counts, not the readings. That is why the Divine Liturgy fulfills the obligation. One does not need any excuses to attend Divine Liturgy. It is valid for a Latin Catholic to attend Divine Liturgy to fulfill any Latin Rite obligation.
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As long as the intent of the Divine Liturgy is the same as what the Latin-Rite Catholic is attempting to fulfill, right? For example, even if the Immaculate Conception is not a Holy Day of Obligation for the Eastern Rite, they will still be having an Immaculate Conception Mass on that day, right? And that’s the one that you would attend, as a Latin Rite Catholic, to fulfill your obligation on that day. Not the anticipated vigil of Sunday Mass (if they have such a thing in the Eastern Rite - I suspect not).
 
jmcrae said:
As long as the intent of the Divine Liturgy is the same as what the Latin-Rite Catholic is attempting to fulfill, right? For example, even if the Immaculate Conception is not a Holy Day of Obligation for the Eastern Rite, they will still be having an Immaculate Conception Mass on that day, right? And that’s the one that you would attend, as a Latin Rite Catholic, to fulfill your obligation on that day. Not the anticipated vigil of Sunday Mass (if they have such a thing in the Eastern Rite - I suspect not).
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I do not have a list of all Eastern Catholic holy days, but for instance, if Assumption is not one, they may not have a Divine Liturgy with anything to do with Assumption at all. However, if a Latin Rite Catholic went to the Divine Liturgy on Aug. 15, the obligation would be fulfilled. Day is what matters, not readings used. If one goes to any valid Mass or Liturgy on Dec. 8, the obligation for Assumption is fulfilled. Another Mass or Liturgy would still have to be attended on Dec. 9 (Sunday). What readings are used in the Mass or Liturgy is inconsequential.
Can. 1248 ß1 The obligation of assisting at Mass is satisfied wherever Mass is celebrated in a catholic rite either on a holyday itself or on the evening of the previous day.
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ourladyswarriors.org/canon/c1205-1253.htm#par2530
Canon Law does not mention anything about the readings of the Mass.
 
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