Immaculate Conception Readings confusing

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Julius_Caesar said:
It never does. That Mary was a virgin doesn’t mean she took a vow.
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Sure it does.

You think about it.

In Luke 1, The Blessed Virgin is already married.

An angel from Heaven comes to this married woman.

The archangel Gabriel tells this married woman, that She is to have a baby son.

What is this Woman’s reaction?

“HOW can this be??!!”

Married women who get told they are going to have a baby
would not react that way.

They would not react that way unless . . . .

. . . unless they planned on and
KNEW they were a consecrated virgin.

THEN (even in marriage) you would NOT know how you can possibly get pregnant.

The implication is there.

The Blessed Virgin Mary is a Consecrated Virgin.
 
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Julius_Caesar said:
As I said, there was a period that lasted a full year before Mary was to enter Joseph’s house.
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This is a partial-truth.

Kiddushin (the marriage ceremony . . . . contrasted to the entering of the husbands home ceremony - Nisuin) MAY last up to twelve months or more, but is certainly less at times too.

It just depended upon how long it took the husband to prepare the dwelling place for him and his bride.

Think about the implications of what you are arguing.

If the Blessed Virgin Mary had waited a year before the Angel told St. Joseph to “take Her into our home”, by the time the Blessed Mother went to help Elizabeth, she would have long-before delivered St. John the Baptist.

The other implication makes the Blessed Mother look like She has no idea where babies come from.

Both implications of your argument are untenable.
 
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Cathoholic said:
If the Blessed Virgin Mary had waited a year before the Angel told St. Joseph to “take Her into our home”
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There’s no implication Mary was just betrothed. Mary could have very well been betrothed when Elizabeth conceived.
Cathoholic said:
The other implication makes the Blessed Mother look like She has no idea where babies come from
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It’s better than reading a vow when it isn’t there.
 
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Julius_Caesar said:
That your counterclaim was ludicrous.
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This is mere name-calling and does not deal with my argument.

Not persuasive.
Julius_Caesar said:
A woman in the first stage of getting married to her husband. Remember Joseph had yet to take her into his house.
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This ignores the text regarding you WILL conceive a son.

How many married women do you know that do not know where babies come from?
 
Cathoholic said:
This is mere name-calling and does not deal with my argument.
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Your argument was this.
Cathoholic said:
If the Blessed Virgin Mary had waited a year before the Angel told St. Joseph to “take Her into our home”
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Which is based on a ludicrous assumption that Mary was just betrothed to Joseph. The text implies this happened quite some time.
Cathoholic said:
This ignores the text regarding you WILL conceive a son.
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And?
Cathoholic said:
How many married women do you know that do not know where babies come from?
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How many married women have yet to enter their husband’s home?
 
The conversation has moved past this point, but I thought someone might be helped by a little history. In 1849, Pius IX sent an encyclical Ubi Primum to the bishops of the world asking for their opinions on the Immaculate Conception. In 1854, Pius defined he Immaculate Conception wih another encyclical Ineffabilis Deus which described the response to the earlier letter:
We were certainly filled with the greatest consolation when the replies of our venerable brethren came to us. For, replying to us with a most enthusiastic joy, exultation and zeal, they not only again confirmed their own singular piety toward the Immaculate Conception of the most Blessed Virgin, and that of the secular and religious clergy and of the faithful, but with one voice they even entreated us to define our supreme judgment and authority the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin.
Pius IX. Ineffabilis Deus
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Mary remained a virgin her entire life. It is a dogma. It is truth. The Church Fathers believed in her being ever virgin. Why would they believe this dogma? Beliefs just aren’t made up. The belief didn’t start with Augustine, which your post suggest. The first written record of Mary’s vow is Protoevangelium of James. Written about 150. Although I don’t agree with your assessment, that it didn’t exist before Augustine and Gregory of Nyssa, it really isn’t a pertinent point. The fact they see Mary as saying she knows not man as referring to a vow is. Even if it were true that no one said it before Augustine, it doesn’t matter. It was said by them.
The fact that they did is important support for her vow.

Did you really read it?
The Homily of St. Gregory mid 200s
  1. The Virgin spake in turn unto the angel: My mind swims in thy words as in a sea. How shall this be unto me? for I desire not to know an earthly man, because I have devoted myself to the heavenly Bridegroom. I desire to remain a virgin. I wish not to betray the honour of my virginity.
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How you can read this and not believe that Gregory was speaking of a vow?
And for the simple fact Scripture doesn’t mention it. Pious speculation.
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Not a fact as Scripture alludes to it as Mary, a married woman, says she knows not man, not just Joseph.
 
A quote form those links you “read”
In his message he gives Mary the following list of future events.  She will conceive in her womb, bear a son and will name him Jesus.  He will be great and called Son of the Most High.  The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David.  He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, his kingdom having no end…
One last thing before we get to Mary’s question. Look at the list one more time. Could you categorize any of the four items as ordinary? Or try it this way. If you had to prioritize your questions, which item would be last on your list? Isn’t item number one rather mundane, especially in light of the remaining items? Hadn’t conceiving and bearing a son happened at least a million times (several times over) in the history of man? Even the name Jesus (Aramaic: Jeshua, Hebrew: Joshua) was common. So when Mary raises her hand, which item on the list does she choose? She selects # 1.
"How shall this happen, since I do not know man?” If Mary had simply asked, “how shall this be?”, we’d likely reason she was asking about the whole list. But she tags on the addendum, “since I do not know man” - indicating it’s the conception she’s focused on…
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Except the marriage was only in stage one. As I said, there was a period that lasted a full year before Mary was to enter Joseph’s house.
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Even the link you provided did not say a full year but up to a year. (BTW you still haven’t shown where they had to be “pure”. It wasn’t in the link.) No time frame is given. You don’t know if it was a day or 11 months when the angel came. We know that Joseph took her into his home before Jesus was born. It is not a relevant point anyway because you continue to ignore that Gabriel made it a future event. Your argument falls apart.
Which is based on a ludicrous assumption that Mary was just betrothed to Joseph. The text implies this happened quite some time.
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Cathoholic is right This is mere name-calling and does not deal with the argument And is not an answer but a sidestep. As you have demonstrated, you cannot account for Mary’s question logically.
 
hope said:
Mary remained a virgin her entire life. It is a dogma. It is truth.
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But not the statement that Mary had a vow of virginity when Gabriel spoke to her. You confuse pious speculation with dogma.
 
Julius_Caesar said:
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Cathoholic:
If the Blessed Virgin Mary had waited a year before the Angel told St. Joseph to “take Her into our home”
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Which is based on a ludicrous assumption that Mary was just betrothed to Joseph. The text implies this happened quite some time.
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So do you think married Hebrew women for say a year, don’t know where babies come from?
 
Cathoholic said:
So do you think married Hebrew women for say a year, don’t know where babies come from?
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I think you are rather fond of creating straw men. Your argument proves even more ludicrous.
 
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Julius_Caesar to @hope . . .
Julius_Caesar said:
No you just simply can’t square my logic with your ludicrous eigesis.
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There is a lot of name-calling of people (or at least their posts) as “ludicrous” here by you (see also here).

You have given no argument that the Blessed Virgin Mary gave no vow of virginity beforehand other than your ipse dixit.

I think it is obvious from the text.

You don’t.

Doctor of the Church St. Augustine ALSO thinks it is obvious.

That’s WHY St. Augustine could say back in about 400 A.D. . . .
ST. AUGUSTINE "Surely, she would not say, ‘HOW shall this be?’ unless she had already vowed herself to God as a virgin . . . . If she intended to have intercourse, she wouldn’t have asked this question! “In being born of a Virgin who CHOSE to REMAIN a Virgin even BEFORE she KNEW who was to be born of her, Christ wanted to approve virginity rather than to impose it. And He wanted virginity to be of FREE CHOICE even in that woman in whom He took upon Himself the form of a slave.”
— St. Augustine. Holy Virginity 4:4. 401 A.D.
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