Immigration reform becomes a Catholic ‘pro-life’ cause

[Path_Finder]

This is an argument based on a stereotype. I hope everyone will click on your links to discover this lie you present. There is zero evidence that Hispanics are the “biggest pro-choice voting blocs” on these websites.

Again, I will start accepting that this is not about prejudice when prejudice against groups of people stop be offered as evidence. Here are some more statistics from an anti-abortion site.
operationrescue.org/about-abortion/abortions-in-america/

Whites, blacks, protestants and Catholics are all a greater user of abortion than Hispanics. Should we speak ill of them as well?

**Hispanic women are twice as likely to have an abortion that white women are.
**
Read more: Hispanic Women are Twice as Likely to Have an Abortion than White Women whyprolife.com/latinos-and-abortion/#ixzz2yOVMyPcY

PNewton’s logic here is only that because 60-69% of the population of the USA is white, whites would be greater users of abortion than Hispanics. That would make sense since Hispanics are around 15% of the population.

If PNewton accuses others of lies, then by gosh, let’s make sure we discuss this matter and let’s ask ourselves indeed, who is being honest here if PNewton can honestly debate these matters. I welcome it.

However clearly the percentages of abortion within the races is higher with Hispanics and Blacks than Asians and Whites.

 

[Path_Finder]

PNewton, you said others said a lie. I hope people can be honest enough to evaluate the facts for themselves. I accept your apology in advance. I said Hispanics are a pro-abortion voting bloc.

ABC News, hardly a right wing beacon:

Latinos Endorse Legal Abortion:

Big majorities of Latinos across the country and other voters agreed that abortion should be legal, including nearly equal shares of men and women, according to exit polling.

Exit poll results found that about two-thirds of Hispanics (66%) said that abortion should be legal while 28% disagreed. Among all voters, a somewhat smaller majority (59%) would allow legal abortions while 37% were opposed.

There is no gender gap on views on abortion among Hispanics or among all voters, according to national exit polling. About two-thirds of men (64%) and Latino women (67%) would permit legal abortion, as would 58% of all male voters nationally and 60% of women.

abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/11/latinos-endorse-legal-abortion/

Also, people we know that even in the Catholic faith, we see stats where it appears Catholics are pro-choice, but when those figures are further broken down, it is very apparent how individual groups inside the Catholic faith vote.

In fact, from ABC news above, as a whole, Americans are more pro-LIFE than Hispanics are.

Please click on the links and see who is misleading who. Let’s hope Posters can honestly debate issues.

 

[Ender]

Immigration is obviously a serious problem. It is equally obviously not a pro-life issue and, while it is disappointing to see it labeled as one, it is not surprising. It seems the simplest way to win an argument without actually having to engage in one is to declare yours is the side of the angels, and leave it implied what the other side is.

This is a political issue and while some proposals will surely be more effective than others, virtually no serious proposal is morally superior to any other. There is, therefore, no pro-life side to choose.

Ender

 

[oldcatholicguy]

PNewton, you said others said a lie. I hope people can be honest enough to evaluate the facts for themselves. I accept your apology in advance. I said Hispanics are a pro-abortion voting bloc.

ABC News, hardly a right wing beacon:

abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/11/latinos-endorse-legal-abortion/

Also, people we know that even in the Catholic faith, we see stats where it appears Catholics are pro-choice, but when those figures are further broken down, it is very apparent how individual groups inside the Catholic faith vote.

In fact, from ABC news above, as a whole, Americans are more pro-LIFE than Hispanics are.

Please click on the links and see who is misleading who. Let’s hope Posters can honestly debate issues.

You do understand your argument is making the following assumptions and implication-
-That US citizens of Hispanic descent hold the exact same social/cultural/moral views as illegal immigrants of Hispanic descent. Pretty much a claim that results in Hispanics in the US are really just Mexicans who happen to have US citizenship.
-That Mexico (the major source of Hispanic illegal immigrants) is socially/culturally/morally/legally more pro-abortion than the US.
-That the only time we need to worry about the pro-life/pro-abortion views of an immigrant is when they are illegal immigrants. I guess being in the US as a legal immigrant is more important than being pro-life.

Your argument is really no different than- Organized crime in the US is heavily populated by Italian Americans therefore letting Italians immigrate to the US will increase our problems with organized crime because we all know all Italians are in the mob.

 

[Path_Finder]

You do understand your argument is making the following assumptions and implication-
-That US citizens of Hispanic descent hold the exact same social/cultural/moral views as illegal immigrants of Hispanic descent. Pretty much a claim that results in Hispanics in the US are really just Mexicans who happen to have US citizenship.
-That Mexico (the major source of Hispanic illegal immigrants) is socially/culturally/morally/legally more pro-abortion than the US.
-That the only time we need to worry about the pro-life/pro-abortion views of an immigrant is when they are illegal immigrants. I guess being in the US as a legal immigrant is more important than being pro-life.

Your argument is really no different than- Organized crime in the US is heavily populated by Italian Americans therefore letting Italians immigrate to the US will increase our problems with organized crime because we all know all Italians are in the mob.

Real Good Point OldCatholicGuy, the beheadings, mass graves, 80,000 killed since 2006 in Mexican Cartel Drug Wars originating largely on the border speaks that immigrants who come here from Mexico and beyond into Latin America must be of very high moral fiber. Why of all things, there first act coming into this nation is illegal!

Thanks for that.

 

[Path_Finder]

So if Latinos from South of the Border are nothing like the ones here per OldCatholicGuy, then am I to understand it would be a good thing to make citizens, people we know nothing about?

Per OldCatholicGuy’s example, did not the Italians still come legally to this country through Ellis Island?? So that would be an extremely huge difference in the example. I’m not sure if Italians, Irish, Poles, etc. were ever having requests for amnesty made on their behalf.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

Real Good Point OldCatholicGuy, the beheadings, mass graves, 80,000 killed since 2006 in Mexican Cartel Drug Wars originating largely on the border speaks that immigrants who come here from Mexico and beyond into Latin America must be of very high moral fiber. Why of all things, there first act coming into this nation is illegal!

Thanks for that.

-Thanks for not actually addressing any of my points.
-New assumption- All illegal immigrants from Mexico are somehow connected to drugs.
-New assumption- The illegal drug problems in the US has nothing to do with the drug issues in Mexico or Latin America even though said issues really only exist due to the US demand for illegal drugs.

 

[Seamus_L]

No country on earth can absorb another country without a major catastrophe occurring. Sadly I suspect those favoring unlimited immigration will win out, and America will begin to look more and more like a third world nation.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

So if Latinos from South of the Border are nothing like the ones here per OldCatholicGuy, then am I to understand it would be a good thing to make citizens, people we know nothing about?

Per OldCatholicGuy’s example, did not the Italians still come legally to this country through Ellis Island??

Depends on if we are using today’s legal standard for immigration or past legal standards for immigration. One of the sources cited for the slur against Italian Americans “Wop” is that a large portion of Italian immigrants immigrated to the US “without papers”, i.e. basic documents required by today’s legal standard to just apply for, let alone actually immigrate to the US. Using today’s legal standard for immigration a lot of the Italian immigrants who came to this country would today be considered illegal immigrants.

 

[Path_Finder]

-Thanks for not actually addressing any of my points.
-New assumption- All illegal immigrants from Mexico are somehow connected to drugs.
-New assumption- The illegal drug problems in the US has nothing to do with the drug issues in Mexico or Latin America even though said issues really only exist due to the US demand for illegal drugs.

Please address my point, did Italians come to this country in droves illegally?

“New assumption- All illegal immigrants from Mexico are somehow connected to drugs.”

No one said anything like this, however, I would not discount crime as a factor of people who we wish or do not wish to be citizens of this nation. You do have that correct.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

No country on earth can absorb another country without a major catastrophe occurring. Sadly I suspect those favoring unlimited immigration will win out, and America will begin to look more and more like a third world nation.

So having the opinion that our immigration policies are broken and unjust equates to favoring unlimited immigration? Um, ok.

 

[Path_Finder]

Depends on if we are using today’s legal standard for immigration or past legal standards for immigration. One of the sources cited for the slur against Italian Americans “Wop” is that a large portion of Italian immigrants immigrated to the US “without papers”, i.e. basic documents required by today’s legal standard to just apply for, let alone actually immigrate to the US. Using today’s legal standard for immigration a lot of the Italian immigrants who came to this country would today be considered illegal immigrants.

I’ve heard the “without papers” part before but not withstanding, that was then and this is now.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

Please address my point, did Italians come to this country in droves illegally?

No one said anything like this, however, I would not discount crime as a factor of people who we wish or do not wish to be citizens of this nation. You do have that correct.

-See post 29
-You didn’t mean to imply that all illegal immigrants from Mexico are connected to drugs? So you just happened to write a 2 sentence comment with the first sentence being all about the drug problems in Mexico and the second sentence being “Why of all things, there first act coming into this nation is illegal!”: What exactly did you mean to imply?

 

[Path_Finder]

Spanish word for “handsome”, guapo.

“Wop is an English transliteration of the common Neapolitan dialect term “Guap” meaning “handsome.” Its use is often intentionally ironic, and is used much more …”

Also, let’s not ignore that Organized Crime has indeed been a serious problem in this country, still exists, has infected Labor Unions, the Drug Trade and so on.

Also: wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_wop?#slide=3

 

[oldcatholicguy]

I’ve heard the “without papers” part before but not withstanding, that was then and this is now.

Ah, so justice (the basis for our legal system) is relative and not absolute.

 

[Path_Finder]

-See post 29
-You didn’t mean to imply that all illegal immigrants from Mexico are connected to drugs? So you just happened to write a 2 sentence comment with the first sentence being all about the drug problems in Mexico and the second sentence being “Why of all things, there first act coming into this nation is illegal!”: What exactly did you mean to imply?

There is nothing to imply here.

Are you saying crossing into the United States on foot across the border is legal through no official border gate? Is that what you are saying??

And yes, if a country is beset by war and corruption and trafficking illegal contraband and poverty where people cross into the United States, yes, I’m not afraid to say that can be a factor.

 

[Path_Finder]

Ah, so justice (the basis for our legal system) is relative and not absolute.

They came through Ellis Island. They came through a US Government Office. Something wrong with that?

Also, the origin of that epithet is far from clear as meaning “without papers”.

And the Mafia has caused untold damage to the United States through crime.

Maybe some where turned back from Ellis Island as well.

 

[Ender]

So having the opinion that our immigration policies are broken and unjust equates to favoring unlimited immigration?

Not at all, but favoring increased immigration plus the virtual amnesty of those already here does seem to be the policy favored by a number of high profile prelates. Everyone is pretty much agreed that our immigration policies are broken; the dispute is over what to do about it, and to that end the political opinions of bishops are not helpful.

Ender

 

[Path_Finder]

I’ve got to be away from the computer but I would say, we need to Enforce the laws on the books. That may be the problem. Even the Federal Government acted against Arizona guarding its own border though that is a few years ago. I forget the specifics.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

There is nothing to imply here.

Are you saying crossing into the United States on foot across the border is legal through no official border gate? Is that what you are saying??

And yes, if a country is beset by war and corruption and trafficking illegal contraband and poverty where people cross into the United States, yes, I’m not afraid to say that can be a factor.

Let’s review your actual comment- “Real Good Point OldCatholicGuy, the beheadings, mass graves, 80,000 killed since 2006 in Mexican Cartel Drug Wars originating largely on the border speaks that immigrants who come here from Mexico and beyond into Latin America must be of very high moral fiber. Why of all things, there first act coming into this nation is illegal!”

So, you link the “moral fiber” of immigrants from Mexico with “beheadings, mass graves, 80k killed since 2006 in Mexican Cartel Drug Wars,” and then comment on “their” first act coming into the US as illegal; and you are now claiming you made no implication at all? Well gee, that has me wondering why you even mentioned the moral fiber of immigrants in the same sentence you list all the bad stuff the drug cartels are doing.

In review, my first comment about the assumptions in your argument gets derailed to another argument with different assumptions, which turns into me somehow claiming that illegal immigration is somehow legal. Yeah, thanks for the straight answers.