Immigration reform becomes a Catholic ‘pro-life’ cause

[Path_Finder]

Let’s review your actual comment- “Real Good Point OldCatholicGuy, the beheadings, mass graves, 80,000 killed since 2006 in Mexican Cartel Drug Wars originating largely on the border speaks that immigrants who come here from Mexico and beyond into Latin America must be of very high moral fiber. Why of all things, there first act coming into this nation is illegal!”

So, you link the “moral fiber” of immigrants from Mexico with “beheadings, mass graves, 80k killed since 2006 in Mexican Cartel Drug Wars,” and then comment on “their” first act coming into the US as illegal; and you are now claiming you made no implication at all? Well gee, that has me wondering why you even mentioned the moral fiber of immigrants in the same sentence you list all the bad stuff the drug cartels are doing.

In review, my first comment about the assumptions in your argument gets derailed to another argument with different assumptions, which turns into me somehow claiming that illegal immigration is somehow legal. Yeah, thanks for the straight answers.

First off, the USA should have probably examined the backgrounds of all Immigrants when they come over, then we may not have a Mafia in the USA.

Secondly, entering the USA is a crime.

Third, you seem to be saying we should allow people we know nothing about. I will go with those points, make of that what you want of it.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

First off, the USA should have probably examined the backgrounds of all Immigrants when they come over, then we may not have a Mafia in the USA.

Secondly, entering the USA is a crime.

Third, you seem to be saying we should allow people we know nothing about. I will go with those points, make of that what you want of it.

-The US should have examined their backgrounds? What happened to your “that was then, this is now” statement concerning the differences between our immigration system in the past and today?
-Entering the US is only a crime if you do it illegally. Hence the terms legal and illegal immigrants.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

Not at all, but favoring increased immigration plus the virtual amnesty of those already here does seem to be the policy favored by a number of high profile prelates. Everyone is pretty much agreed that our immigration policies are broken; the dispute is over what to do about it, and to that end the political opinions of bishops are not helpful.

Ender

The positions of the “high profile prelates” are based on what the Church teaches. As for political opinions of bishops, given that they are our shepherds and our political views are to be shaped by our faith I think their opinions are totally helpful. They are only unhelpful if one mistakenly believes our politics are to be independent of our faith.

 

[Path_Finder]

Actually, the fact that stats can be projected that Hispanics support abortion per the ABC news column, I would not dismiss this info. It’s the little we have. Jesus commands us to love the least of our brethren.

We need to love the least of our brethren, that means the unborn, that means the poor. But it might not mean those who are just coming to the country for opportunity. In fact, showing favoritism to those who break the law over those who obey the law is wrong.

 

[Ender]

The positions of the “high profile prelates” are based on what the Church teaches.

Their positions are no more based on church doctrine than the opposite positions held by others. The church provides guidelines and objectives but the decisions about how to achieve those objectives are in fact the responsibility of the laity to determine. The church is utterly silent on whether we should increase or decrease our level of immigration, build (or not) a fence, and provide amnesty or increase deportations. Bishops may have opinions on these matters … but the church does not.

As for political opinions of bishops, given that they are our shepherds and our political views are to be shaped by our faith I think their opinions are totally helpful. They are only unhelpful if one mistakenly believes our politics are to be independent of our faith.

Their positions are unhelpful if one mistakenly believes we have an obligation to accept them because they represent church teaching.

Ender

 

[Path_Finder]

“Because there’s not a day that goes by in this country that there isn’t at least one American citizen that dies at the hands of someone who’s unlawfully present in the United States, whether it is an act of homicide or it’s an act of willful manslaughter, whether it’s an [Operating While Intoxicated] in the streets of America, hardly anybody has gone through the last 10 years and doesn’t at least show that up in their local newspaper, if it doesn’t show up in their neighborhood. And so Steve King’s not dead wrong. Let’s keep more Americans alive.”- Representative Steve King, Iowa

blogs.rollcall.com/218/steve-king-illegal-immigrants-kill-americans-every-day/

Also, note, these other crimes that have occurred.

reuters.com/article/2014/04/10/us-usa-execution-texas-hernandez-idUSBREA3900H20140410

wnd.com/2014/01/texas-executes-illegal-alien-who-killed-cop/

 

[Ridgerunner]

People seem to assume we’re talking about some Mexican couple who eat off garbage dumps in Guadalajara or somewhere and come to the U.S. in order to live at all.

There might be some, but first of all about half the illegal immigrants are not Hispanics at all. They come from all over the place. Yes, there are the ones who cross the Sonoran desert, but there about as many who get visas to come here as tourists or students, and never leave. A lot of those are from the Middle East. Remember the 911 murderers? They were all “illegals” who came here on visas and overstayed. Can anyone really doubt why they did that? What is the compelling reason to let them stay?

Secondly, Mexico is not “third world”. It’s about 13th in average income worldwide, and higher than it is in any Eastern European state. People in Central America try to get into Mexico to work. Wages there are about 1/3 there what they are here, but so is the cost of living. Unemployment is lower there than here.

Yes, they can make more here, and a lot of them work here just to be “ahead of the Joneses” when they return home with U.S. money, which has a lot more value than Mexican money in Mexico. Should I be deemed to have a “right” to work in Lichtenstein, where wages are much higher than in the U.S. just so I can be better off than my countrymen?

Definitely it has a corrupt and dysfunctional government. But is the answer to that to drain off the workers? Perhaps the populace of Mexico and other places needs to solve their own governmental problems, something their coming here will not do.

Immigration policy is a very tough national problem, but romanticism won’t solve it.

 

[Tigg]

No country on earth can absorb another country without a major catastrophe occurring. Sadly I suspect those favoring unlimited immigration will win out, and America will begin to look more and more like a third world nation.

The last time I looked, the catechism stated that prosperous nations must help the other ones as far as they are able. Given the reality of current economic challenges as well as other injustices, it makes one wonder if we have encompassed the total social justice message.

 

[ruly]

Close the Border, Close the Border, Close the Border!

Path Finder, Ridgerunner, thank you for your helpful insights. I agree with your posts on this topic. No matter how much proof there is that not all illegal aliens “oops violating PC, should be ‘immigrants’” the opposition tends to disregard the facts. We are the most charitable country on the face of this earth. The clergy seem to ignore CCC #2241 “immigrants are obliged to respect with gratitude the material and spiritual heritage of the country that receives them, to obey its laws and to assist in carrying civil burdens”. Hence coming here illegally is against the law and against the church. Abortion is morally wrong no matter who does it. This thread is about illegals embracing the practice and the fact that the opposition would want to ignore this because of the “feel good” mentality no matter the results.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

Close the Border, Close the Border, Close the Border!

Path Finder, Ridgerunner, thank you for your helpful insights. I agree with your posts on this topic. No matter how much proof there is that not all illegal aliens “oops violating PC, should be ‘immigrants’” the opposition tends to disregard the facts. We are the most charitable country on the face of this earth. The clergy seem to ignore CCC #2241 “immigrants are obliged to respect with gratitude the material and spiritual heritage of the country that receives them, to obey its laws and to assist in carrying civil burdens”. Hence coming here illegally is against the law and against the church. Abortion is morally wrong no matter who does it. This thread is about illegals embracing the practice and the fact that the opposition would want to ignore this because of the “feel good” mentality no matter the results.

So, random person on the internet knows more about what the Church actually teaches than a Bishop. Um, ok.

 

[ruly]

So, random person on the internet knows more about what the Church actually teaches than a Bishop. Um, ok.

“Random person on the internet?” I guess that describes most of us including you unless you identify yourself as a Bishop.
Close the border, abide by our laws including Bishops honoring CCC #2241. Why would a random person on the internet need a Bishop to teach us its meaning?

 

[Tigg]

So, random person on the internet knows more about what the Church actually teaches than a Bishop. Um, ok.

Please name the church document which states the laity must embrace the political opinion of any bishop. Immigration reform (which is really amnesty) is a legislative matter which, btw, has already been tried once and failed. We are not bound to follow a specific political solution. Did you read Ender’s post #45? In his usual eloquent fashion he really explains it quite well.

Regarding church teaching it might be of benefit to understand the authentic meaning of the Magisterium which is the teaching office of the Church as it pertains to matters of faith and morals. It is not comprised of a single bishop, or even a few, but of the whole body of bishops in communion with the pope.

.

 

[Path_Finder]

I do think there is another aspect of the ‘pro-life’ cause to this issue.

It’s human trafficking, that has to be horrible.

Ever so often, you hear of a truck filled with migrants who enter illegally being found, after a police chase, in an accident or other situations. Worse things have happened as well such as those who try to survive crossing the desert.

Even right now, many are making their way into the country because of the pressure towards leniency in the immigration laws. If these persons of other countries are braving coming up here dealing with a number of issues, one has to question if this is humane…

nytimes.com/2014/04/11/us/poverty-and-violence-push-new-wave-of-migrants-toward-us.html?_r=0

The migrants are no longer primarily Mexican laborers. Instead they are Central Americans, including many families with small children and youngsters without their parents, who risk a danger-filled journey across Mexico. Driven out by deepening poverty but also by rampant gang violence, increasing numbers of migrants caught here seek asylum, setting off lengthy legal procedures to determine whether they qualify.

 

[pnewton]

PNewton, you said others said a lie. I hope people can be honest enough to evaluate the facts for themselves.

Please click on the links and see who is misleading who. Let’s hope Posters can honestly debate issues.

Do you prefer “untrue”. The articles you linked did not support your statement. Period. You did not post the ABC article.

This sort of stereotyping is bad. People should not be judged by their ethnicity.

However, taking the figures you give and ABC’s statistics, Hispanics are still not the largest voting bloc for abortion, either by percentage (blacks at 67%) or actual numbers, that would be whites. This is why I do not swallow every story the media presents, or everything posters post.

In the end though, we should not treat people, white or black, Jew or Muslim, based on what “most” are like. That is the definition of bigotry.

I am wondering, as too often people connect correlation with causality if perhaps income level is more of an issue than race or ethnicity.

One final reason why this whole issue is irrelevant. Non-citizens to not vote.

 

[pnewton]

Real Good Point OldCatholicGuy, the beheadings, mass graves, 80,000 killed since 2006 in Mexican Cartel Drug Wars originating largely on the border speaks that immigrants who come here from Mexico and beyond into Latin America must be of very high moral fiber.

Mexican cartels are brutal so we should question the moral fiber of Hispanic immigrants? Can you explain how this could not be seen as an argument from bigotry?

 

[pnewton]

“Random person on the internet?” I guess that describes most of us including you unless you identify yourself as a Bishop.
Close the border, abide by our laws including Bishops honoring CCC #2241.

I would note that wanting to change a law is not failure to abide by the law. It is democracy. Also, since we need to abide by the law, it would behoove us to stop labeling an illegal action that has a civil result, a “crime”, which according to the current law, it is not.

 

[pnewton]

The last time I looked, the catechism stated that prosperous nations must help the other ones as far as they are able. Given the reality of current economic challenges as well as other injustices, it makes one wonder if we have encompassed the total social justice message.

This is a good point and one on which all legitimate disagreement need to focus. What exactly is the best course that helps the poor without harming others in equal need? This is a far more practical area of discussion than demonizing people for their race, creed or religion.

 

[Ender]

I would note that wanting to change a law is not failure to abide by the law. It is democracy. Also, since we need to abide by the law, it would behoove us to stop labeling an illegal action that has a civil result, a “crime”, which according to the current law, it is not.

Entering this country illegally is a crime; it is not an infraction of civil codes. Overstaying a visa may be a civil infraction but sneaking across the border is something altogether different. It is a criminal act and it is morally wrong.

Ender

 

[HappyCatholic01]

An untrue generalization which discounts true social justice principles, among them, the common good.

What he rarely posts is serious or true. I wouldn’t even waste too much time responding.

Some people are on he internet to simply be provocateurs for no good reason.

 

[Ender]

This is a good point and one on which all legitimate disagreement need to focus. What exactly is the best course that helps the poor without harming others in equal need?

This of course is true. There are forces, however, that change the focus of the debate so that these issues get less attention than they deserve.

This is a far more practical area of discussion than demonizing people for their race, creed or religion.

If it is wrong to demonize people for their race, creed, or religion, it is equally wrong to demonize them simply for adhering to different solutions. Unfortunately, when a few bishops put forward their own proposals, their opinions are treated like church doctrine and those who disagree with them are demeaned as cafeteria Catholics.

This is the main reason I oppose the bishops involvement in politics, because it actually coarsens the tone of the debate. After all, if the bishops’ solutions actually represent church doctrine then aren’t those of us who disagree with them committing a sin? Aren’t we behaving just like those Catholics who support abortion and contraception? Is it any wonder other Catholics look at us and turn up their noses at what they think they see?

The answer of course is that the bishops opinions do not represent doctrine and we have no obligation whatever to accept them, and the sooner this is recognized the sooner the debate will return to those more practical areas of discussion where solutions may actually be found.

Ender