Immodesty and the lack of respect for women - two sides of the same coin.

[horselvr]

"stccp:

Reading for comprehension is something you may need to practice. I realize this was on page one but maybe your memory will be jogged if I repeat it here for you.

"My skirts are, for the most part, column skirts that are ankle-length or a couple of inches above ankle-length. I wear jackets with blouses that reach my throat and long sleeves.
Even when I go out to wash my car I wear a pressed button-down blouse and an ankle-length denim skirt. Because this is my “work skirt”, worn when I am washing my car, or cleaning out the garage, or moving, or doing any sort of physical work".

While I believe being modestly dressed especially for Mass should be the norm, my post was my way of adding humor to your ridiculous over the top rant. If you would like to believe that the ills of the world hinge on whether a woman’s blouse is two fingers width below her armpit or not------Lord Help Us. Furthermore, I feel that the article posted and your thought process concerning this topic are exceptionally sexist.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

 

[horselvr]

two fingers width below her armpit—should read below her throat.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

two fingers width below her armpit—should read below her throat.

Now THAT would be a scandalizing ensemble.

 

[RachelKH]

so, was it wrong of me to make a ‘stop it’ face at the man watching the butts of the two teens in front of me in the communion line were wearing pants? they weren’t tight tight or anything.

 

[horselvr]

Better watch it you two—there will be NO humor in this thread what so ever otherwise the fashion police will not be pleased.

 

[chevalier]

Something to think about … how we dress influences how we are treated. Do an experiment - walk into a store in an expensive-looking suit, nicely made up, well-groomed etc. Then go back to that same store the next day in scruffy sweats with no makeup and uncombed hair.

I challenge you to go somewhere in a long-flowing hippie-style dress with flower motifs and pull out an attorney business card.

If you do that, I will go to court in a cream suit, black tie and gangsta hat. Oh wait, I already have.

 

[BlueShadow123]

In the summer months, i do wear short shorts, and mini skirts due to the weather. Even when i am wearing jeans or am covered up, guys still seem to want me no matter how i dress. Maybe i also should have mentioned that i constantly get random requests on facebook and guys coming on to me there aswell, even though they cannot see anything about me other than my face.

I think its about time that you realized that not everybody who dresses for the weather is a slut, and that guys are the ones who need to control themselves.

 

[LilyM]

In the summer months, i do wear short shorts, and mini skirts due to the weather. Even when i am wearing jeans or am covered up, guys still seem to want me no matter how i dress. Maybe i also should have mentioned that i constantly get random requests on facebook and guys coming on to me there aswell, even though they cannot see anything about me other than my face.

I’m not arguing for a moment that attractiveness doesn’t depend on a lot more than what one wears. But the fact that that is so doesn’t mean that what one wears doesn’t matter and doesn’t say something about you. Most of us spend far more time and attention, if not money, on our clothing than it’s worth, precisely because we know it DOES matter and does make an impact.

I think its about time that you realized that not everybody who dresses for the weather is a slut, and that guys are the ones who need to control themselves.

It’s about time you in your turn realised that wearing mini-skirts and short shorts has absolutely nothing to do with dressing for the weather. None as in zip, zilch, zero, nada.

Put it this way - I used to think it made a difference, and used to dress immodestly. Then I got smart and got convicted about modesty in dress. I learned about light-weight material, breathable natural fabrics etc etc, and at the same time covered up - not to the neck, but knees, shoulders and cleavage at least. Even in summer. I guess it must have been a miracle but I did NOT feel the weather any more because of my change to more modest attire - not an IOTA.

Do I need to remind you that our great-grandmothers did fine in hot weather too, covered up much more than I do, and they didn’t have the advantages of airconditioned cars and buildings either

 

[Zeemeermin]

It’s about time you in your turn realised that wearing mini-skirts and short shorts has absolutely nothing to do with dressing for the weather. None as in zip, zilch, zero, nada.

I think we all know where I stand on this issue, but I have to agree with this. I live in the Phoenix area, where summer temps regularly get into the 110s. Any skirt has the problem of your thighs getting all sweaty where they touch. And pantyhose are a mysoginist torture device IMO so I never wear them. Artificial non-breathing fabric in the desert? Uhh… no. Short shorts have the same issue. IME capri pants and longer shorts are much superior for hot weather, because they keep you from feeling nasty because your thighs are coated in sweat.

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

It’s about time you in your turn realised that wearing mini-skirts and short shorts has absolutely nothing to do with dressing for the weather. None as in zip, zilch, zero, nada.

LOL…

When I moved to Miami, I thought the girls were wearing these itty-bitty tank tops to church because of the tropical weather (nevermind that other folks were wearing sweaters because of the air conditioner). Then, January came, and we were all like :winter: , but the girls were still wearing the same itty-bitty tank tops. At that point, I started to suspect that something was wrong with my weather theory. Unless, of course, all those girls were training for survival in extreme cold weather, because they were all scheduled to be deployed beyond the Arctic Circle, to save the polar bears or something…

 

[BlueShadow123]

I’m not arguing for a moment that attractiveness doesn’t depend on a lot more than what one wears. But the fact that that is so doesn’t mean that what one wears doesn’t matter and doesn’t say something about you. Most of us spend far more time and attention, if not money, on our clothing than it’s worth, precisely because we know it DOES matter and does make an impact.

It’s about time you in your turn realised that wearing mini-skirts and short shorts has absolutely nothing to do with dressing for the weather. None as in zip, zilch, zero, nada.

Put it this way - I used to think it made a difference, and used to dress immodestly. Then I got smart and got convicted about modesty in dress. I learned about light-weight material, breathable natural fabrics etc etc, and at the same time covered up - not to the neck, but knees, shoulders and cleavage at least. Even in summer. I guess it must have been a miracle but I did NOT feel the weather any more because of my change to more modest attire - not an IOTA.

Do I need to remind you that our great-grandmothers did fine in hot weather too, covered up much more than I do, and they didn’t have the advantages of airconditioned cars and buildings either

Well, its what i feel comfortable wearing in very hot weather. Ill let you know though that i wear shorts alot more than mini skirts becuase, well you know, for going upstairs and sitting down lol.

 

[Shin]

When I think of modesty I think of St. Perpetua and St. Agnes and others…

Of St. Perpetua, one of the earliest female martyrs whose writings have been passed down to us:

“When she was thrown into the air by a savage bull in the amphitheatre at Carthage, her first thought and action when she fell to the ground was to rearrange her dress to cover her thigh, because she was more concerned for modesty than pain.”

Pope Pius XII (Allocution to the girls of Catholic Action, October 6, 1940).

And we think of nothing but our own comfort in regards to clothing.

“But how can you know anything of the impression made on others? Who can assure you that others do not draw therefrom incentives to evil? You do not know the depths of human frailty …. Oh, how truly was it said that if some Christian women could only suspect the temptations and falls they cause in others with modes of dress and familiarity in behavior, which they unthinkingly consider as of no importance,** they would be shocked** by the responsibility which is theirs”

“Beyond fashion and its demands, there are higher and more pressing laws, principles superior to fashion, and unchangeable, which under no circumstances can be sacrificed to the whim of pleasure or fancy, and before which must bow the fleeting omnipotence of fashion. These principles have been proclaimed by God, by the Church, by the Saints, by reason, by Christian morality."

Pope Pius XII

 

[RachelKH]

oh, thank you so much! sharing this!!!

 

[BlueShadow123]

Do you guys know about the Penecostal religion?
this thread reminds me so much of their views on modesty and dressing. Except that women in that religion are not to wear jewlery, makeup, they cannot cut their hair, and they can only wear dresses or skirts that go below the knees. oh, and they cannot show off their shoulders.

the men on the other hand, they are to keep their hair short, and wear only jeans as bottoms.

 

[mommamaree]

Do you guys know about the Penecostal religion?
this thread reminds me so much of their views on modesty and dressing. Except that women in that religion are not to wear jewlery, makeup, they cannot cut their hair, and they can only wear dresses or skirts that go below the knees. oh, and they cannot show off their shoulders.

the men on the other hand, they are to keep their hair short, and wear only jeans as bottoms.

Really? Why do they have the restriction where they can only wear jeans? I have heard of the Pentecostal Christians, of course, but I don’t know much about them. Sounds like they have a dress code, which goes a step further than having strict views about modesty. Are they allowed to wear a wedding band? For myself, I could imagine wearing only longer dresses or skirts. I already have quite long hair (my greatest vanity, honestly), and I wear only mascara and minimal jewelry (ear studs, my mother-child pendant, and my wedding band). I do have some shoulder-baring shirts though. So, with some minor adjustments, I don’t think I would have a problem dressing like a Pentecostal. I have seen the ladies around town before, and they always look feminine, well-groomed, and lady-like. But of course, I am a Catholic, so whether or not I looked like them, they would probably still have serious objections to what I profess and what I do as a Catholic Christian. Ah well, you can’t please everyone. :shrug:

 

[BlueShadow123]

Really? Why do they have the restriction where they can only wear jeans? I have heard of the Pentecostal Christians, of course, but I don’t know much about them. Sounds like they have a dress code, which goes a step further than having strict views about modesty. Are they allowed to wear a wedding band? For myself, I could imagine wearing only longer dresses or skirts. I already have quite long hair (my greatest vanity, honestly), and I wear only mascara and minimal jewelry (ear studs, my mother-child pendant, and my wedding band). I do have some shoulder-baring shirts though. So, with some minor adjustments, I don’t think I would have a problem dressing like a Pentecostal. I have seen the ladies around town before, and they always look feminine, well-groomed, and lady-like. But of course, I am a Catholic, so whether or not I looked like them, they would probably still have serious objections to what I profess and what I do as a Catholic Christian. Ah well, you can’t please everyone. :shrug:

Yeah I agree. They’re just very strict about everything they wear and do.

Apparently the bible says that its a sin if a woman cuts her hair (even trims it), and if she wears pants its also a sin. They’re taking passages from the old testament and putting it as laws now even though we’re under grace period. Well, if its a sin to trim your hair, wear makeup and jewlery and wear jeans, then i guess im going to hell. And i sure am not appologizing for it because i see nothing wrong with it.

 

[mommamaree]

Just found a nice link discussing modesty and scripture. I enjoyed reading it, and it certainly challenged me, even though I have a tendency to be quite modest already. I posted the link below, because I thought it might add to the discussion here. I would love to hear what others think of the points made there.

momof9splace.com/sermon.html

 

[faithfully]

Something to think about … how we dress influences how we are treated.

This is very true. You WILL be judged the moment you walk into a Job interview. As a hiring manager, I will make a snap judgement as to whether or not you have a clue as how to present “professionally”. Because, in theory, you represent me and my company. In some job environments that does not matter. You might wear a uniform.

My husband and I actually did this as an impromtu experiment when we went searching for my wedding ring. It was cold out. We had about a $4500.00 budget. We both wore jeans, and a sweatshirt. We went to about 4 well known jewelers. One place, the staff was so rude we couldn’t get out fast enough. The others, just a little bit better. The FINAL store. They were amazing… AND SMART! They saw a young couple come in, look at the case for rings, and a sales person was assigned immediately. This was a very “posh” place. We discovered about an hour into our diamond education that the person sitting with us was the owner. He educated us on everything we needed to know about buying a quality pc. of jewelry. Then he suggested we look around, and come back if we wanted to order something from them… Here’s the thing. We were dressed VERY Casual. Every store we walked into: Men in suits and ties, and women in business attire… All professional. But you know the REAL difference? Attitude. Guess which store got our business… DH bought my ring there. I bought his there. He returned a year later, and bought me a gorgeous pearl pendant.

I wonder…did we LURE those people into sin? By dressing down to see how they would treat us? I don’t know. I do know that we rewarded those with a sense of class and humanity with our business.

In the end… The outfit did NOT make the person. The heart of each individual had shown right through. So much is missed if we look at just clothes.

But the article makes an excellent point. We are, as a society, judgemental. And based on that, we need to exercise judgement when we are not with those who KNOW us and UNDERSTAND us.

And in the same way, no person should be blamed for being attacked in the middle of the night in a dark alley. The fact is… There are horrifying people out there waiting in that dark alley. They are waiting for the person who is lacking that little pc. of common sense that there are those who can not, or will not control themselves.

 

[Zeemeermin]

faithfully, I LOVE your post! Exactly the point so many of us have been trying to make, but you win the prize. You made it clear and understandable better than any so far. Especially here:

In the end… The outfit did NOT make the person. The heart of each individual had shown right through. So much is missed if we look at just clothes.

Bravo!

 

[1sicht]

Just found a nice link discussing modesty and scripture. I enjoyed reading it, and it certainly challenged me, even though I have a tendency to be quite modest already. I posted the link below, because I thought it might add to the discussion here. I would love to hear what others think of the points made there.

momof9splace.com/sermon.html

(Disclaimer: I’m all for modesty:thumbsup:—even for men: have you ever seen the typical French guy’s blue jeans? Way too tight, and the crotch all the way up to his waist, such that certain appendages will be outlined like an Adam’s apple in a geezer’s craw. GAAAG! And what is more vomitous than some grey-haired guy with his shirt buttons open almost down to his bellybutton, allowing thick curly grey pec hair to belch out into your face? :tsktsk: So my comments here are not meant in any way to endorse or promote the Lower Slobovia look of the past 43 years or so.)

First of all, I think that the passages in the O.T. regarding not crossdressing were in reference to perverted sexual practices (i.e. homosexuality and lesbianism). If a farmer’s wife pulls on her hubby’s jeans when she works with the critters or helps with haying, then she’s not doing it for sexual kicks or to cause some lesbian to pant after her. When a gal goes to the thrift shop and can’t find any decent wool pullovers on the ladies’ sweater rack, but finds the exact perfect merino wool baggy-sized one in the men’s section, she’s not committing some sort of sexual sin by buying it and wearing it to shreds (I know a disabled gal on a shoestring budget who did just that: it was her daily winter “uniform,” along with warm baggy sweatpants—and she is, as she puts it, “hopelessly heterosexual.” ).

2ndly, loosefitting pants (or culottes) on a woman are actually more modest than a knee- or calf-length skirt, because more is covered (especially when she walks up or down stairs—my grade school had open-air stairs: slats, connected by heavy metal girders and banisters). Also much more modest for riding a bike or a motorcycle (even in a gusty wind).

3rdly, what do you do with: Scottish kilts (skirrrrts! :bigyikes on those—definitely masculine—Black Watch chaps? Togas on Roman men? And consider the Indian woman with her rapturously beautiful sari: even if her midriff and or back middle might be showing a bit, she is still (in my estimation) dressed modestly. Consider also the Pakistani woman, who wears a knee length cotton dress (fitted, though not tight), with matching (fitted, though not tight) slacks: can you get more modest than THAT?!

So, much as I might appreciate and agree with the overall message that pastor at that URL was trying to get across, I think he’s creating a bit of a Bed of Procrustes.

Most offensive of all, though, is his reference to his wife as “his property”—talk about an abomination! :nunchuk: What a perversion of the meaning of the Corinthian passage he cites (as well as of the one in Canticles 2 that says, “My beloved is mine, and I am his”)! When the Bible speaks of the oneness of the Godhead, is Jesus or the Holy Spirit God the Father’s “property”? Neither is biblical married oneness a case where a wife serves as her husband’s chattel or sex machine. (I would avoid that pastor’s church like the plague!)

It is that sort of swill, coupled with a centuries-long ignoring of the verse in Ephesians where husbands are exhorted to “die to themselves as Christ died for the Church,” that has contributed heavily to the monstrosity that is modern Feminism.