Immodesty and the lack of respect for women - two sides of the same coin.

  • Thread starter Thread starter stccp
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
The Cardinal Vicar of Pope Pius Xl was not speaking “ex cathedra” when he was making these suggestions.

Pope John Paul ll was acting “ex cathedra” when he canonized St Gianna Beretta Molla. There are many photos of her in public wearing a dress that has sleeves well above the elbow and a few with her even wearing pants.

In light of that, I think that we have a MODERN example of feminine holiness that most can identify with…she was a women, wife, mother, physician (worked outside the home at some point), and we can definitely look to her for fashion guidance.
 
It’s not that he was a dirty pig…
Oh, no, don’t compare men (or women) to pigs as if it were an insult!

(WARNING: AnSci major/vet tech speech ahead.) Pigs are intelligent, loyal, very social, and loving–and surprisingly, very clean animals (if kept in conditions that allow them to be). If neutered young, they have no odor. They’re entertaining pets for the person who has the time and motivation to train them properly.

OK, lecture finished! 😃

Miz
 
Oh, no, don’t compare men (or women) to pigs as if it were an insult!

(WARNING: AnSci major/vet tech speech ahead.) Pigs are intelligent, loyal, very social, and loving–and surprisingly, very clean animals (if kept in conditions that allow them to be). If neutered young, they have no odor. They’re entertaining pets for the person who has the time and motivation to train them properly.

OK, lecture finished! 😃

Miz
Miz, I enthusiastically agree! 😃 Except for the cleanliness, LOL! We used to have pigs as I grew up, and they are the sweetest animals. Very playful, too. They would come to greet me at the entrance of their sty, as soon as they saw me coming their way. The moment I touched them, they would lay down on their sides, waiting for me to rub their bellies! 😛 I only don’t understand the clean part. Our pigs loved bathing, but the thing was that they didn’t care whether it was clean water, dirty water, or thick mud! 😃
 
One thing I would like to happen in this kind of debates is that people should please stop confusing property (in the neat and ordered peaceful townsfolk sense of dressing for the occasion) with sexual modesty. Failing to dress up has nothing to do with sexual mores.

The other thing I would point out that the problem of caution and who has to bear the burden of it (and we should all bear each other’s burdens by St. Paul) is just one face of the problem. Intentional provocation is the other. When a man wants to lust, he can’t look for excuses in women’s clothing to escape the guilt. When a woman wants to turn men into zombies, she can’t blame it on men’s reaction. Other than this, we’re indeed in the area of caution, where we should be mutually supportive rather.

By the way, I very much respect the woman who has enough respect for me 1) not to try to play with my head, 2) to make sure the interaction is not uncomfortable for me by making me focus on my guard. This speaks well of her upbringing.
 
One thing I would like to happen in this kind of debates is that people should please stop confusing property (in the neat and ordered peaceful townsfolk sense of dressing for the occasion) with sexual modesty. Failing to dress up has nothing to do with sexual mores.

The other thing I would point out that the problem of caution and who has to bear the burden of it (and we should all bear each other’s burdens by St. Paul) is just one face of the problem. Intentional provocation is the other. When a man wants to lust, he can’t look for excuses in women’s clothing to escape the guilt. When a woman wants to turn men into zombies, she can’t blame it on men’s reaction. Other than this, we’re indeed in the area of caution, where we should be mutually supportive rather.

By the way, I very much respect the woman who has enough respect for me 1) not to try to play with my head, 2) to make sure the interaction is not uncomfortable for me by making me focus on my guard. This speaks well of her upbringing.
One thing that bothers me is that men don’t flirt with me when I dress modestly. I always dress modestly now, but when I was not Catholic, I wore outfits that were not modest sometimes, and those were the only times men showed any interest in me at all.

And, by the way, I dress nicely now. I am not ugly, and I don’t wear potato sack clothing, but it seems men go for the scantily clad women, even Catholic men. It’s very discouraging. 😦
 
The other thing I would point out that the problem of caution and who has to bear the burden of it (and we should all bear each other’s burdens by St. Paul) is just one face of the problem. Intentional provocation is the other. When a man wants to lust, he can’t look for excuses in women’s clothing to escape the guilt. When a woman wants to turn men into zombies, she can’t blame it on men’s reaction. Other than this, we’re indeed in the area of caution, where we should be mutually supportive rather.
Perhaps I can illustrate the “caution” side of this point with a real story which was not quite intentional provocation, but a case of poor judgment and unintentionally tempting someone into sin, in another area. As it happened, my roommate and I got a bottle of fine spirit (cognac? vodka? I don’t remember) as a gift, and we promptly gave it away to another guy at our dormitory, because we didn’t drink much. Now, this guy had an alcohol problem, and within an hour or two, we saw him wasted drunk! :eek: He opened the bottle immediately, and drank most of it! We felt like beating up ourselves after realizing our mistake, but it was too late. :o And I don’t think it’s a valid excuse to say that we did nothing wrong, and it was all the other guy’s problem, because he couldn’t resist temptation. A similar logic should apply to tempting other people sexually, and yes, we ARE our brother’s keepers, and we MUST bear each other’s burden.
By the way, I very much respect the woman who has enough respect for me 1) not to try to play with my head, 2) to make sure the interaction is not uncomfortable for me by making me focus on my guard. This speaks well of her upbringing.
👍
 
One thing that bothers me is that men don’t flirt with me when I dress modestly. I always dress modestly now, but when I was not Catholic, I wore outfits that were not modest sometimes, and those were the only times men showed any interest in me at all.

And, by the way, I dress nicely now. I am not ugly, and I don’t wear potato sack clothing, but it seems men go for the scantily clad women, even Catholic men. It’s very discouraging. 😦
Oh, those are the men you want to avoid! You loose nothing by not getting those “stags” interested in you! 🙂

I can tell you, there are different men out there, and sooner or later you will meet one. 👍

I, for one, avoid scantily clad women like the plague. Not only that they turn me off (I find modestly dressed women classier and more attractive), but I’m not about to invite trouble on myself, by messing with such women. 🤷
 
One thing that bothers me is that men don’t flirt with me when I dress modestly. I always dress modestly now, but when I was not Catholic, I wore outfits that were not modest sometimes, and those were the only times men showed any interest in me at all.

And, by the way, I dress nicely now. I am not ugly, and I don’t wear potato sack clothing, but it seems men go for the scantily clad women, even Catholic men. It’s very discouraging. 😦
May I suggest then sticking with what you’re wearing, but maybe add something that signals being open? Like a flower in the hair, that’s always a good one. And then you have to be slightly more forward with your interactions. I don’t mean immorally so, just make sure to project an image of being open to conversation/flirting. Women who dress provocatively are sending a VERY direct message that they are open to men’s attention. You should send one that’s also direct but not in a scandalous way.
 
Oh, those are the men you want to avoid! You loose nothing by not getting those “stags” interested in you! 🙂

I can tell you, there are different men out there, and sooner or later you will meet one. 👍

I, for one, avoid scantily clad women like the plague. Not only that they turn me off (I find modestly dressed women classier and more attractive), but I’m not about to invite trouble on myself, by messing with such women. 🤷
Thanks for the encouragement. I hope I meet a guy who likes modest clothing soon! Waiting is really a pain. 😛
May I suggest then sticking with what you’re wearing, but maybe add something that signals being open? Like a flower in the hair, that’s always a good one. And then you have to be slightly more forward with your interactions. I don’t mean immorally so, just make sure to project an image of being open to conversation/flirting. Women who dress provocatively are sending a VERY direct message that they are open to men’s attention. You should send one that’s also direct but not in a scandalous way.
I dress in a pretty feminine way, but maybe I’ll try some of your suggestions. I probably can’t be more forward though. I think men should pursue, and I refuse to steal their job from them, even if they don’t want it!

I don’t think I give an impression of being closed off. I’m very smiley. 🙂
 
Immodesty and the lack of respect for women - two sides of the same coin.

Respect for women in this country is at an all time low, and much of that is because of the way they dress, Going shopping, to class and even to Sunday Mass, in a t-shirt, jeans or shorts, does nothing to enhance the dignity of a woman. Women dress the way they do today because someone, over half a century ago, decided they wanted to dumb down America, and convincing people to be less concerned about how they dress is one way of doing it.

Our society today suffers from an acute lack of critical thinking skills, and there is a definite connection between the way we dress and how we think. If we dress like slobs, we soon begin to think like slobs. No discipline of body – no discipline of mind. This situation did not come about by accident, but was a well orchestrated plan to help destroy our Christian society. In her book "Dressing With Dignity”, Colleen Hammond explains this point in detail.

In her article, “The Dignity of True Femininity”, Dr. Anne Marie McDonnell also illustrates the extent of the problem. She says: *“For a woman to live according to Catholic teaching in today’s society she needs heroic virtue. Every form of media, including television, movies, magazines, books, computers, music, and theater all assault women’s human dignity, often portraying her in a pornographic manner as an object of lust." *

Women need to understand that men react differently than women in regards to modesty. Mrs. Hammond discusses this phenomenon in her book. The following quote illustrates the point.

*”Women must learn that men are “wired” differently and the way a woman dresses can have a definite impact on how a man reacts to her. As an example, if a man is watching a TV talk show or interview, and sees a modestly dressed woman sitting on a chair or couch and she is wearing a dress or skirt that extends several inches below the knees, she is viewed as a total woman and the mans concentration is on her, as a complete person, and on what she is saying or whatever her purpose is for being on that particular show.

However, if you take the same woman and shorten her skirt so that it is two or three inches above the knees, then the man perceives her in a different manner, more as a sexual object. He no longer views her as a whole person worthy of respect. Instead, he sees her as a collection of parts, with some parts drawing more attention than others. This sexual “evaluation” all takes place in split second in the brain, but has the effect of distracting the man from what she is saying, because her appearance is sending a different message. And the more immodest the manner of dress, the greater the distraction.

Even if they are full length and not tight fitting, a pair of slacks on a woman has the same psychological effect of dividing her up into parts”.
*
I would therefore encourage women to reconsider the manner in which they dress, and also the manner in which they dress their young children. How often do we see, even at Sunday Mass, young girls dressed in skimpy outfits, thus accustoming them to immodesty at a very early age.

And, as a side note, I should, at least, mention the disgraceful display of immodesty exhibited by brides and their bridal parties an most Catholic weddings today. Recently, at such a wedding I attended, the comment was made that the bride and bridal party looked more like the Playboy Review than an occasion of “Holy” matrimony.

In conclusion, I would offer a challenge to any woman who reads this article. For two or three weeks, get rid of the t-shirts, slacks and old tennis shoes and wear a long skirt and nice blouse, or dress, and dress very feminine and ladylike (but not extravagantly), and notice how you are treated by other people, men especially.

.
As men we have a duty to police ourselves. Your post seems like an attempt to blame the short comings of men on the way women dress.

That strikes me as rather sexist and the exact opposite of what Christ would teach us.
 
God does not change. What was true in the 17th century is just as true in the 20th or 21st. Remember what Our Lady said at Fatima in 1917. Many fashions will be introduced that will greatly offend Our Lord. ---- More souls go to Hell for sins of the flesh than for any other reason. It seems to me that most of the objections to my post have one common element - PRIDE.

Would I be correct in assuming then that your are saying that you have no interest in helping men avoid sin? Perhaps the following quote from an old Catholic Girls guide would help.

The name of this particular book is “Hail Holy Queen, a Book of Prayer and Counsel for Catholic Girls and Women, the Roman Missal for Sundays”, by Fr. Charles J. Callan and Fr. John A. McHugh. They wrote the following:

“If the standards of morals in a country or age is low, you may be sure that it is because the women of that country or age are lax in their morals; for women, being naturally more virtuous than men, are looked up to by men as models in matters pertaining to modesty and purity. This is why the Church is so insistent that women be modest in their dress.” Pg 3

“A woman should never lose respect for her own body, for it is the work of God; it is the instrument and companion of her soul and the temple of the Holy Ghost, destined for future glorification.” Pg. 53

“A woman may not be expensively dressed, or wearing the latest “fad” clothing. She may not have those attractions which are most admired by the world; but if she has the virtues of modesty and purity, she has something that money cannot buy, a treasure which will outlast all the fading glitter of the world.” Pg.53
Why stop there? Let’s make catholic women wear a burka.

As a man it is MY responsibility to avoid sin.
 
Thanks for this link, stccp. Here’s a quote from it:

I find it saddening how many people won’t even admit that we have a problem, when in fact there are certain parishes in my city where you cannot attend church on a Sunday safely, because as many as 50% of female visitors show up in sleeveless dresses and worse, everything from mini skirts and exposed belly buttons to strapless dresses and fully exposed backs. I’m not talking about the population at large, in the city. I’m talking about churchgoers in a Catholic Church! The other day a guy attended Mass in a A-shirt, with fully exposed bare shoulders. But hey, what’s the big deal, women of all ages have been doing this for years! Parents dress even their 5-year old daughters like this, with these spaghetti strap dresses that only desensitize poor children to showing too much skin and prepare them to dress inappropriately and think it’s OK, once they grow up.

In another thread in Family Life, a teenager posted who was caught wathing porn on the computer, by his parents. No poster said to him, “Hey, it’s okay, follow your conscience. If your conscience tells you it’s okay, than it’s okay to watch porn.” But I’m not sure we would get such a unanimous response if we asked about inappropriate dress at church. And all the while, this teenager didn’t hurt others, by watching porn on his computer, in the privacy of his room. He only hurt himself. But those who dress in a sexually provocative fashion will tempt others to sin, they will possibly generate lustful thoughts in several/many other people. Thus, I think they commit a graver sin, the sin of scandalizing other people.
You scandalized me with that post.

Attend Mass safely? Do you hear yourself? I think you are more focused on controlling other people than the true teachings of Jesus Christ. Christianity was never supposed about controlling people or political power. Your two steps from flying planes into buildings.

Read the gospels sometime and learn about the kind of people Jesus spent his time with. I assure you these women he spent time with were not wearing full length sleeve and the latest styles in Amish wear.
 
The good women of those times dressed very modestly…and lived so… you might compare it to some of the nun’s habits, or the images of Our Lady…

Outfit Guidelines

Mary-Like Standards.

‘That our Redeemer was the first who taught, by his example, modesty of the eyes, may, as a learned author remarks, be inferred from the holy evangelists, who say that on some occasion he raised his eyes.* And he, lifting up his eyes on his disciples.* When Jesus therefore had lifted up his eyes. From these passages we may conclude that the Redeemer ordinarily kept his eyes cast down. Hence the Apostle, praising the modesty of the Saviour, says:* I beseech you, by the mildness and modesty of Christ.’*

St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori

‘Human bodies are like glasses, which cannot come into collision without risk of breaking; or to fruits, which, however fresh and ripe, are damaged by pressure. Never permit any one to take any manner of foolish liberty with you, since, although there may be no evil intention, the perfectness of purity is injured thereby. Purity has its source in the heart, but it is in the body that its material results take shape, and therefore it may be forfeited both by the exterior senses and by the thoughts and desires of the heart. All lack of modesty in seeing, hearing, speaking, smelling, or touching, is impurity, especially when the heart takes pleasure therein. St. Paul says without any hesitation that impurity and uncleanness, or foolish and unseemly talking, are not to be “so much as named” among Christians. Remember that there are things which blemish perfect purity, without being in themselves downright acts of impurity. Anything which tends to lessen its intense sensitiveness, or to cast the slightest shadow over it, is of this nature; and all evil thoughts or foolish acts of levity or heedlessness are as steps towards the most direct breaches of the law of chastity. Avoid the society of persons who are wanting in purity, especially if they are bold, as indeed impure people always are.’

St. Francis de Sales
 
You scandalized me with that post.

Attend Mass safely? Do you hear yourself? I think you are more focused on controlling other people than the true teachings of Jesus Christ. Christianity was never supposed about controlling people or political power. You are two steps from flying planes into buildings with that kind of logic.

Read the gospels sometime and learn about the kind of people Jesus spent his time with. I assure you these women he spent time with were not wearing full length sleeve and the latest styles in Amish wear.
 
The good women of those times dressed very modestly…and lived so… you might compare it to some of the nun’s habits, or the images of Our Lady…

Outfit Guidelines

Mary-Like Standards.

‘That our Redeemer was the first who taught, by his example, modesty of the eyes, may, as a learned author remarks, be inferred from the holy evangelists, who say that on some occasion he raised his eyes.* And he, lifting up his eyes on his disciples.* When Jesus therefore had lifted up his eyes. From these passages we may conclude that the Redeemer ordinarily kept his eyes cast down. Hence the Apostle, praising the modesty of the Saviour, says:* I beseech you, by the mildness and modesty of Christ.’*

St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori

‘Human bodies are like glasses, which cannot come into collision without risk of breaking; or to fruits, which, however fresh and ripe, are damaged by pressure. Never permit any one to take any manner of foolish liberty with you, since, although there may be no evil intention, the perfectness of purity is injured thereby. Purity has its source in the heart, but it is in the body that its material results take shape, and therefore it may be forfeited both by the exterior senses and by the thoughts and desires of the heart. All lack of modesty in seeing, hearing, speaking, smelling, or touching, is impurity, especially when the heart takes pleasure therein. St. Paul says without any hesitation that impurity and uncleanness, or foolish and unseemly talking, are not to be “so much as named” among Christians. Remember that there are things which blemish perfect purity, without being in themselves downright acts of impurity. Anything which tends to lessen its intense sensitiveness, or to cast the slightest shadow over it, is of this nature; and all evil thoughts or foolish acts of levity or heedlessness are as steps towards the most direct breaches of the law of chastity. Avoid the society of persons who are wanting in purity, especially if they are bold, as indeed impure people always are.’

St. Francis de Sales
We do not live in those times. Those times were terrible awful times where human rights were non-existent and women were considered property.

Jesus spent his time with prostitutes, tax collectors and many other people that were considered the dregs of society. I assure you the prostitute he forgave was probably not so well dressed.

One of the great gifts God gave us is the ability to reason. I suggest using it.
 
If you think that Jesus forgave without repentance, the very first call of the Gospel is ‘Repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand’. 🙂

Christian modesty in dress is a fundamental virtue. You can’t escape it. You can’t deny it. It’s part and parcel with the Faith.

Modesty, purity, without these – no one can see God. In a moral society, they are societal virtues. This is not a moral society in matters of purity.

Matters of purity condemn souls to Hell. That is the most dangerous thing, specially institutionalized in society.

Men and women have a responsibility to be modest and pure and chaste. Period. The difference is Heaven and Hell. And their responsibility is shared towards one another, in speech, in dress, and in looks, and thoughts.

Men are weak in matters of purity regarding the eyes, so women have to dress modestly for reasons not only of humility but also of purity. Men also have to restrain their speech so as not to tempt women to matters of impurity.

I suggest you reason with history and the scriptures as to what they have to say about matters of adultery and purity. 🙂 And what the natural law in the heart says about shame in their regard, shame is natural in regards to such sins.
 
I have read through just a few posts and I couldn’t agree more with the OP. I’m a male and when I go into church and see women wearing shorts and spaghetti strap shirts I just think your in front of your Creator wearing that?? :rolleyes: I see a trend where women are wearing the long dresses and veil to mass and its night and day to me, I really admire and respect them, its very reverent. When I drive down the street anymore I have to avert my eyes at some of the women. There is not a lot left to the imagination anymore. With all the sexual addiction in society I feel that women who dress provocatively are just contributing to this sin. Our bodies are temples of God and I feel it greatly offends God with your dress. I also think men are just as bad as the women by the way. We can dress sloppy too and I’ve seen plenty of guys in church in team jerseys or T shirts
 
I have read through just a few posts and I couldn’t agree more with the OP. I’m a male and when I go into church and see women wearing shorts and spaghetti strap shirts I just think your in front of your Creator wearing that?? :rolleyes:
God created Adam and Eve naked. And they stood right in front of Him like that! And He has x-ray goggles anyway… he can see through all your clothes. Horrifying, isn’t it. Jeez. :rolleyes: God doesn’t object to human bodies… Puritans do.

I have not read the whole thread. All I really want to say is that the assumptions in the article posted in the OP weigh about 1000 pounds. And what a low opinion of men has been expressed on this thread! I’m sorry if some of you want to excuse your own weakness and indulgence of sin by blaming women, but there are REAL men, who have strong sex drives and find the female form lovely and attractive, who somehow still manage not to behave like slobbering Neanderthals and to honor the woman they made vows to by reserving their desirous attentions for her only. I’m married to one.

I guess when he gets back from Afghanistan, I’ll have to ask him if he thinks we should institute burqas. He’s gonna have a great chance to see how that looks in real life. :ehh:
 
God created Adam and Eve naked. And they stood right in front of Him like that! And He has x-ray goggles anyway… he can see through all your clothes. Horrifying, isn’t it. Jeez. :rolleyes: God doesn’t object to human bodies… Puritans do.
You’re skipping the part where Adam and Eve ate the apple. This is the fundamental problem of so many… You can’t skip that part. 🙂 It explains everything. Sorry you can’t escape it. Concupiscence.

After the apple… they were ashamed. And afraid. And this was natural… natural law… proper shame… instead of shamelessness… a great sin that… We need to recover our natural shame, it’s there for a reason.

So they immediately made clothing for themselves. Fig leaves. It wasn’t enough. Guess who saw it wasn’t enough?

God. He put better clothing on them. Everything in scripture happens for a reason. God is telling people everywhere…

Right there in the beginning… in Genesis…

Put more clothing on.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top