Immodesty and the lack of respect for women - two sides of the same coin.

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Shin,

Keep reading through the end of the chapter.
I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling;

that women should adorn themselves modestly and sensibly in seemly apparel, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly attire but by good deeds, as befits women who profess religion.

Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet woman will be saved through bearing children, if she continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty.
I agree, such a wonderful piece!
 
C_S_P_B said:
Shin,

Keep reading through the end of the chapter.
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I know your request was directed toward Shin, but might I respond?

I have read the whole chapter just now, and as I read it, I find that it seems to very accurately follow the long-standing teaching of the Catholic Church, to whom we both belong. Women are to be silent during teaching in church. We are not permitted to get up and begin teaching during Mass, nor are women ever allowed to give the homily. Women may do one of the readings during Mass, and we have female cantors and choir members, but only men may be priests or deacons. If this is how we are still doing it after 2000 years, why would you suppose that a Catholic woman would find something troubling in that passage? Unless I am missing something…🤷
And I do acknowledge that there are those who are promoting the ordination of women in the Catholic Church, but I am obviously not one of those people. I joined the Catholic Church because of what She is, the Bride of Christ, and I do hope and pray that She is protected from those that seek to change Her very essence into something not Bride-like, but rather androgynous.
Also, the point about a woman’s salvation coming from child-bearing…don’t most Catholic mothers find child-bearing and rearing to be sanctifying? I certainly do, and most of my peers do as well. Paul was spot-on in describing the reality of maternity and motherhood, it really forces a woman to become more self-less everyday.
 
C_S_P_B said:
Shin,

Keep reading through the end of the chapter.
I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling;

that women should adorn themselves modestly and sensibly in seemly apparel, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly attire but by good deeds, as befits women who profess religion.

Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet woman will be saved through bearing children, if she continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty.
I agree, such a wonderful piece!
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Since we’ve digressed back to this, perhaps it’s time for the moderators to close the threads and give our favorite women-bashers a new thread to post their issues on…
 
Proof texting is for Protestants. Context is for Catholics.

Not to quibble with you mommamaree (becasue I value the counsel of a woman), but where does it say “in the Church”? Pointing this out may lead others to believe that I am a misogynist but such is not the case.
 
C_S_P_B said:
if the snipe at “woman bashers” was aimed at me, it is misdirected.

Proof texting is for Protestants. Context is for Catholics.

Not to quibble with you mommamaree (becasue I value the counsel of a woman), but where does it say “in the Church”? Pointing this out may lead others to believe that I am a misogynist but such is not the case.
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Huh? I am sorry, but what are you referring to with your comment about “woman bashers”? I don’t recall ever using such language.
And I also don’t understand “proof texting”, although I do understand “context”.
And to your more direct point about “in the Church”, Paul was writing that letter to Timothy with regards to proper behavior amongst believers, i.e. in the Church.
Somehow I doubt that if a woman was an expert in a farming technique or how to obtain the best flax/linen or how to cure a boil that she should remain silent out of fear of offending a man by passing on such valuable information. There is a difference between being a spiritual authority (and teaching from that position) and being an expert and passing on vital knowledge.
 
CSPB -
Twice now, I have responded to your posts, only to find that your posts have changed and the language is less harsh. Yet your posts do not have a “Last edited…” notation. This is not very fair to me or to other posters who are actively participating in the thread. How is your editing not being recorded with the normal CAF notation? In the future, if you decide to change your post, maybe to sound less harsh or to add something or to reflect upon a change of perspective, please make a point of noting the change, because when others view the conversation, it may appear that we are changing your words when quoting you, when it is actually you going back and editing your own posts. I would really appreciate that, so that it is clear to me and to all what you are actually saying, and to what I am responding to.

I am intending to be very nice and respectful here, but this is electronic communication, so I would hate to sound rude or angry. Please don’t misunderstand my request. 🙂
 
A post was removed so I edited my post. The previous post,was edited to quote the passage, which in no way changes the meaning.

Yes, Paul was writing to people “in the Church” but I take this to mean members of the Church.

I just do not agree with the way that some women try to shame other good women about how to dress modestly. It is more than “rules” and Karol Wojtyla clearly outlined this in Love & Responsibility.
 
C_S_P_B said:
A post was removed so I edited my post. The previous post,was edited to quote the passage, which in no way changes the meaning.

Yes, Paul was writing to people “in the Church” but I take this to mean members of the Church.

I just do not agree with the way that some women try to shame other good women about how to dress modestly. It is more than “rules” and Karol Wojtyla clearly outlined this in Love & Responsibility.
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I bolded your last remark so that I could address just that one. I agree with you. We should never use shame to make each other conform to some rule we make up for ourselves, in any arena. But I do think it is good to engage one another in dialogue and share scripture and writings of saints in order that the more mature Christians may teach the neophytes or less mature Christians. As a baby Catholic, I know I have learned a lot from such people, male or female, who share such teachings with me. We can all help each other on the path to holiness. 👍
 
mommamaree said:
I bolded your last remark so that I could address just that one. I agree with you. We should never use shame to make each other conform to some rule we make up for ourselves, in any arena. But I do think it is good to engage one another in dialogue and share scripture and writings of saints in order that the more mature Christians may teach the neophytes or less mature Christians. As a baby Catholic, I know I have learned a lot from such people, male or female, who share such teachings with me. We can all help each other on the path to holiness. 👍
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Absolutely, Exploring issues is helpful, even with those that do not see it EXACTLY the same. This is how we learn.

It is instructional that often the after the tiff is resolved, we discover the views were not at odds after all. How many marital fights happen because of this? Learning HOW to listen and understand others is very helpful in life to meet people where they are at. Of course it is not always so simple because there are principles, and other people involved.
 
Serap said:
They let me in the Vatican, so my skirt and top must have been considered modest I guess.
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Serap, why don’t you post a picture resembling the outfit you wore.

We are not trying to make you feel any less than the beautiful daughter of Christ you are. I think you and I agree a lot more than you think on what women can and should wear. You said you wore a v-neck and v-necks can be modest if something is worn under them.

Example:
 
Hello, I’m actually using the account my husbands just made for himself, as I don’t want to go through the process of starting one myself. I’ve been following this thread for quite sometime now, and it has left me very confused. If it is sinful for a woman to wear anything that exposes the knees, elbows, and sternum, and even to wear pants, then i suppose participating in anything that involves physical activity or exercise is a sin too?

Which leads me to a few more questions. Specifically what type of activities are morally okay for a young lady to participate in? I assume swimming and running are out of the question. I have a 2 year old daughter and i would like her to grow up active and healthy, without engaging in activities that are immoral for women. Any suggestions?
 
Women are more degraded today than in any other time in history. Male Chauvenist Pigs put immoral images on the internet. Radicals and anarchists insist on zero censorship. There are limits we give our children. Do these limits go away when they are adults? NO !

When I was kid in the 1960s, it sometimes occurred that a woman would go up to a group of men and say, “Don’t talk like that around the kids.” It was clear that such talk was regarded as wrong.

Beaches have been added to the list of places I cannot go. Young women have been taught it’s OK to expose 95 per cent of their bodies or more.

I knew a young lady who was a beauty contestant and model. She was a nonCatholic Christian and would never wear anything less than a one piece bathing suit. “I don’t want people seeing me in my underwear.”

When girls and young women are exposed to a certain body shape and told over and over and over again that this body shape is ideal, beautiful, perfect, then it does affect their image of themselves. A small group of so-called fashion designers select the body type and face type. They tell the rest of the world: This is what you must accept as perfect, beautiful, etc. and too many young women feel compelled to copy the appearance of these models.

Unfortunately, models for clothes are sometimes presented in obvious sexual situations. So, the fashion designers no longer just sell clothes, they sell a lifestyle to go with the clothes. This is wrong in so far as the lifestyle being presented indicates multiple partners, as in one ad campaign.

Ladies - stop trying to copy rail thin, anorexic models. It Does Not Matter. Whatever figure God has given you is yours. Eat enough but don’t starve youself. I knew one woman who needed to be six pounds above her modeling weight because she felt better. Your health is important.

Feminists tried to convince women to shun men that opened doors for them, or brought them flowers. To what end? Treating a woman with dignity and respect became wrong? Face it ladies, what you are still being taught is the struggle - a power struggle between men and women. And you must never be a Lady again! You must be a Woman! Relationships turned from trust and friendship to making sure that the man would have no advantages over you. You would make as much or more than he did. You would bench 300 pounds to his measley 250. You would show him who was boss in the relationship!

God has given certain qualities to men and women. Don’t give that up to some falsehoods being sold to you today. There is a complementary between men and women that should never be buried under some useless class struggle. Relationships should be about respect, mutual trust and shared values. The ‘hooking up’ idea damages the natural order that was established for men and women.

God bless,
Ed
 
Thanks, Ed. I can tell that you have a deep appreciation for women and womanhood. It is very uplifting to see that there are still men who are gentlemen and who are offended by today’s idea of the modern woman, who is in competition with the men in her life. Biblical womanhood is sacred and beautiful, and I for one hope that Catholicism will be leading the charge to reclaim it for the sake of the Lord and all of humankind.

To BingoBoy’s wife, 😃 welcome to the thread and to CAF!
To address your questions, all I have to offer is to say that these are issues which we are discussing, and many people have kindly shared some of the teachings of the Church, scripture references, and writings of the saints, all of which are beneficial for guiding us. But none of us has any definitive answers for you. We are not authorities, just people having a conversation. 🙂 Anything that troubles you or that isn’t clear, you could always ask your pastor to clarify.

Edited to Add: I forgot to address the question of physical activities, like exercise. Exercise is very good, and is a vital thing for a healthy body. I don’t think anyone here is suggesting that women are immodest for being active or athletic. But when we engage in physical activities, we do still need to be aware of modest behavior or attire. As an example, I read a story recently where a high school cheerleading team had to petition the school board to stop purchasing such skimpy cheer uniforms because they felt humiliated to be cheering in front of the whole school in what felt like underwear to them. I applaud such courage in young women, who stand up for their dignity while participating in their sport. Many ladies’ volleyball teams are facing similar struggles, where the school board chooses shorts that reveal the buttocks of minor age girls and the girls feel humiliated. 😦
 
My husband is very athletic and sporty. If my daughter turns out to be anything like him, she’ll have that same spirit in her as well. Which at first comes off as being a great thing, but then I think about what she’ll be exposed to. If what a lot of you are saying is true about women not being able to wear pants (much less shorts and t-shirts) then i just worry about how we’re going to handle the situation. I want her to have a full life but I also don’t want to offend our Lord.

Sometimes I think being a woman is very hard. There are just so many mixed messages out there aimed at women - “your bodies can bring about great sin, so keep them covered,” “your bodies are beautiful, so don’t be ashamed of them,” “keep your body healthy and active,” “keep your body ‘feminine’ and don’t ever get stronger than a man,” etc etc…

It just feels like such a prison, I can’t help but think men have it so much easier. I wish it didn’t have to be that way.
 
Yes, women have a particular weight all their own in modesty…

Especially in these days.

Sigh.

At least I will say…

It is true also though that men have a particular weight all their own in purity… Thank God women do not have to bear it. It is part of the difference, one can be very thankful for.

There are many athletic activities which in and of themselves aren’t much of a problem if at all, but do become a problem in public, especially when fashion demands clothing that is completely morally unacceptable – which it so often does.

Public gymnastics would be one of these things, as long as men are present, the outfits and poses as a general rule make it impossible. If only schools had not moved to be co-ed.

Some say that if you wear large towels, and a large swimming suit you can get in and out of the water discretely with help. But no swimming suit of these times, alone, one piece or not, can be considered modest. It is not truly clothing at all.

One has to not walk on borderlines but stay well clear of them or one goes over, it’s pretty much inevitable.

We live in times of particular moral corruption in regards to matters of modesty.

Catholic schooling of course has completely fallen to pieces just like regular catechesis. Or we would not have cheerleaders at the schools – It’s hard to think of an role more immodest simply by nature, besides say joining the Rockettes.

But the sins that lead most people to Hell are as the little girl says, speaking of what she learned from Mary:

‘The sins that lead more souls to hell are the sins of the flesh.’ Bl. Jacinta

So it follows that matters of impurity and modesty are the ones we are most raised culturally blind to, and most prone to excuse, since these are the linked sins that send most souls to Hell.

When the saints speak of the fewness of the saved, and they speak on it over and over and endlessly, how can we hope to be among that few if we do not act like the few instead of the many? What the many do should be exactly what we should realize we should not be doing as a general rule.

Further material for reference:

‘A special danger to morals is represented by public bathing at beaches, in pool and river banks. . . Mixed bathing between men and women, which nearly always is a proximate occasion of sin and a scandal, must be avoided.’

Cardinal Pia y Daniel

‘These principles with due regard to time and place, must, in accordance with Christian prudence, be applied to all schools, particularly in the most delicate and decisive period of formation, that, namely, of adolescence; and in gymnastic exercises and deportment special care must be had of Christian modesty in young women and girls which is so gravely impaired by any kind of exhibition in public.’

Pope Pius XI, ‘Divini Illus Magistri’, 1929 A.D.

'We read also in Father Nieremberg that a noble lady, who was exceedingly pious, asked God to make known to her what displeased His Divine Majesty most in persons of her sex.

The Lord vouchsafed in a miraculous manner to hear her. He opened under her eyes the Eternal Abyss.

There she saw a woman a prey to cruel torments and in her recognized one of her friends, a short time before deceased. This sight caused her as much astonishment as grief: the person whom she saw damned did not seem to her to have lived badly.

Then that unhappy soul said to her: “It is true that I practiced religion, but I was a slave of vanity. Ruled by the passion to please, I was not afraid to adopt indecent fashions to attract attention, and I kindled the fire of impurity in more than one heart. Ah! If Christian women knew how much immodesty in dress displeases God!” At the same moment, this unhappy soul was pierced by two fiery lances, and plunged into a caldron of liquid lead.’

‘Louis of Granada speaks of a young woman whose damnation had no other source than vanity and the desire to please. She led a regular life, but her passion to attract attention by the charm of her beauty was the moving cause of her whole conduct. Having fallen sick, she died, having received all the Sacraments. While her confessor was praying for her soul, she appeared to him, saying that she was damned, and that the cause of her damnation was vanity. “I sought,” she added, “only to please the eyes of men. This passion caused me to commit a multitude of sins; it prevented me from receiving the Sacraments well, and it has led me to everlasting torments.”’

Rev. F.X. Schouppe, S.J.

‘In all your movements, let nothing be evident that would offend the eyes of another.’

St. Augustine, Father and Doctor of the Church

‘I urge you, therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God, your spiritual worship. Do not conform yourselves to this age but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and pleasing and perfect.’

Romans 12:1-2

‘Frequent not the company of immodest persons, especially if they be also impudent, as is generally the case; . . . these corrupted souls and infected hearts scarcely speak to any, either of the same or a different sex, without causing them to fall in some degree from purity; they have poison in their eyes and in their breath, like basilisks. On the contrary, keep company with the chaste and virtuous; often meditate upon and read holy things; for the word of God is chaste, and makes those also chaste that delight in it.’

St. Francis de Sales, Doctor of the Church

‘The purpose of clothing is to keep warm in winter and to cover your nakedness, not to serve your vanity.’

St. Cyril of Jerusalem, Father and Doctor of the Church

“Further we must speak as we dress, or dress as we speak. Why do we profess one thing and display another? The tongue talks of chastity, but the whole body reveals incontinence.”

St. Jerome, Father and Doctor of the Church
 
BingoBoy said:
My husband is very athletic and sporty. If my daughter turns out to be anything like him, she’ll have that same spirit in her as well. Which at first comes off as being a great thing, but then I think about what she’ll be exposed to. If what a lot of you are saying is true about women not being able to wear pants (much less shorts and t-shirts) then i just worry about how we’re going to handle the situation. I want her to have a full life but I also don’t want to offend our Lord.

Sometimes I think being a woman is very hard. There are just so many mixed messages out there aimed at women - “your bodies can bring about great sin, so keep them covered,” “your bodies are beautiful, so don’t be ashamed of them,” “keep your body healthy and active,” “keep your body ‘feminine’ and don’t ever get stronger than a man,” etc etc…

It just feels like such a prison, I can’t help but think men have it so much easier. I wish it didn’t have to be that way.
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Hi BingoBoy’s Wife,

I will try to chime in here. Not that I’m the Pope or something, I’m not infallible… 😃 So take my advice for what it’s worth - just some thinking out loud from a Catholic guy. 🙂

First off, your confusion may be related to the fact that part of this thread dealt with what we are supposed to wear inside the church, and part of the thread dealt with what to wear in general, for work, for everyday life, outside the church. Now, if you check that illustrated dress code in front of St. Peter’s Basilica, you will immediately see that it does NOT forbid women in pants from entering St. Peter’s Basilica at the Vatican. Thus, I think we have a very strong logical case for the rule that if the Pope doesn’t forbid women from wearing pants, in St. Peter’s Basilica in the Vatican of all places, you and other women shouldn’t be worried about committing a sin by wearing pants. Now, I guess, dressing as female-to-male or male-to-female transvestites would be another business, and it would be offensive. But when a woman puts on some pants which were designed for women and look feminine, that just doesn’t make her a transvestite, and it doesn’t make her a sinner. Let’s not be more Catholic than the Pope. If pants for women are acceptable in St. Peter’s Basilica, they should be also acceptable outside church, for the workplace, for skiing, horseriding, or whatever. I love skiing. Women wearing ski outfits with pants still look very nice and feminine on the slopes. There’s a way to make women’s stuff feminine-looking and designers know how to do a good job with it, including with women’s ski outfits.

Regarding how much of one’s body to cover, there are some hard and fast rules in church. What the Pope, as Bishop of Rome, instituted and had enforced in his Diocese of Rome, is probably wise to follow for all of us, whether we are located in Rome, elsewhere in Italy, or even on another continent such as America, Asia, Africa, or Australia. And those rules say, one should be covered from the shoulders down to the knees - INSIDE CHURCH. But then, does this mean that a woman cannot go jogging on the beach, wearing shorts and sports bras? In my opinion (and again, I’m not the Pope :p) there’s nothing wrong about jogging on the beach, wearing shorts and sports bras.
 
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