Impossible to find the true church

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19 ¶ Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Restitution of all things ??? what needs to be restored if you have it all ???

Rev. 14: 6
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

Why would this be the case if the everlasting Gospel was already on the earth ???
 
There are Catholics with healing ministries. WE just tend to look at it from another perspective.

We hear Jesus say

So why should we look for signs for faith? Jesus also said

So again, must we have signs to beleive?
I am not looking for a sign but if one is sick the scripture says send for the elders to anoint and bless, this is what should be practiced in the Lords Church and it is not found in the Church.
James 5: 14
14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
 
I am not sure what you are asking here. The Eleven, minus Judas, laid hands on to appoint successors and this process has been repeated ever since.
No it has not, the apostolic sucession ended with the martyrdom of the Apostles. The father"s and Pope hold the office of Bishop not Apostle or Prophet.
 
19 ¶ Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Restitution of all things ??? what needs to be restored if you have it all ???
The restoration of our bodies in the resurrection and the perfection of justice in Heaven. There is neither justice, nor restitution on earth, which is the princedom of the evil one.
Rev. 14: 6
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
Why would this be the case if the everlasting Gospel was already on the earth ???
Simply put, the Gospel must be preached to each succeeding generation. It is a task which ends only upon Christ’s return.
 
You say that the ancient of days is God The Father ? If this is the case? Why is he wearing a garment and has Hair if he has no body
God is pure Spirit. His Spirit does have an appearance, however. Man places a need for a physical appearance upon things we cannot understand. If He were flesh and bone, why would all who look upon Him die?

Anyway: We are off topic. You might start a thread in “Non-Catholic Religions”
 
  1. MUST BAPTIZE BY IMMERSION
    Matt 3:13-16
    13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
    14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
    15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
    16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Do you understand from this scripture that baptism is by sprinkling or does it talk of immersion ???
Humor me now is it possible that the earth recieved its baptism with the great flood by total immersion so it can go on to that state of glory that the meek may inherit it ???
 
No it has not, the apostolic sucession ended with the martyrdom of the Apostles. The father"s and Pope hold the office of Bishop not Apostle or Prophet.
Wrong. The Apostolic had never ended, Apostolic Fathers of the Church like St. Polycarp, and St. Ignatius were disciples of St. John the Apostle. St. Clement of Rome know Peter and Paul, and St. Papias knew Andrew.

These saints live around 90-100 AD during.
 
  1. MUST CLAIM REVELATION FROM GOD
    Amos 3:7
    7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
Revelation stopped with the Apostles, what you are telling me is that God has not spoken to mankind for 2000 years through his Prophets, I ask you with tears in my eyes why not. ??? when mankind needs it more today than ever before in its history.
 
  1. MUST CLAIM REVELATION FROM GOD
    Amos 3:7
    7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
Revelation stopped with the Apostles, what you are telling me is that God has not spoken to mankind for 2000 years through his Prophets, I ask you with tears in my eyes why not. ??? when mankind needs it more today than ever before in its history.
Public Revelation ended at the death of the Last Apostle. The Catholic Church affirms this. The Church also affirm the Jesus did not left us orphans, so he established a Church upon Peter in Matt 16:17-19. “You are Peter and upon this Rock, I will build my Church.”

Peter according to our Tradition is the first Pope. He was succeeded by Linus, the Anacletus, St. Clement of Rome, and so forth. There have been 265 successors of St. Peter, since he was crucified in Rome upside down.

God spoke through his Church since Jesus is the Head of the Church. The Soul of the Church is Holy Spirit, who protect the Church from teaching error. The Church is the pillar and bulwark of truth just as 1 Tim 3:15 states.

Jesus also promised he will be with us until the end of the age. In Gospels, he spoke to the Apostles and his disciples, “He who hears you, hears me, he who rejects you, rejects the one who sent me.” Jesus also said to his Apostles the authority to bind and loose, and He gave Peter the Keys of the Kingdom.
 
Wrong. The Apostolic had never ended, Apostolic Fathers of the Church like St. Polycarp, and St. Ignatius were disciples of St. John the Apostle. St. Clement of Rome know Peter and Paul, and St. Papias knew Andrew.

These saints live around 90-100 AD during.
Disciples yes Apostles NO
 
I am not looking for a sign but if one is sick the scripture says send for the elders to anoint and bless, this is what should be practiced in the Lords Church and it is not found in the Church.
James 5: 14
14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
How long were you Catholic? It is one of the Seven Sacraments: Annonting of the Sick.

It occures daily.
 
Disciples yes Apostles NO
St. John died around 90 AD. He had followers, two of them are St. Polycarp of Symnerean, and St. Ignatius of Antioch.

These men were not Apostles, they were Bishops. They held Apostolic Sees in their Church.
 
I. Ordained Leaders Share in Jesus’ Ministry and Authority

Matt. 10:1,40 - Jesus declares to His apostles, “he who receives you, receives Me, and he who rejects you, rejects Me and the One who sent Me.” Jesus freely gives His authority to the apostles in order for them to effectively convert the world.

Matt. 16:19; 18:18 - the apostles are given Christ’s authority to make visible decisions on earth that will be ratified in heaven. God raises up humanity in Christ by exalting his chosen leaders and endowing them with the authority and grace they need to bring about the conversion of all. Without a central authority in the Church, there would be chaos (as there is in Protestantism).

Luke 9:1; 10:19 - Jesus gives the apostles authority over the natural and the supernatural (diseases, demons, serpents, and scorpions).

Luke 10:16 - Jesus tells His apostles, “he who hears you, hears Me.” When we hear the bishops’ teaching on the faith, we hear Christ Himself.

Luke 22:29 - the Father gives the kingdom to the Son, and the Son gives the kingdom to the apostles. The gift is transferred from the Father to the Son to the apostles.

Num 16:28 - the Father’s authority is transferred to Moses. Moses does not speak on his own. This is a real transfer of authority.

John 5:30 - similarly, Jesus as man does nothing of His own authority, but He acts under the authority of the Father.

John 7:16-17 - Jesus as man states that His authority is not His own, but from God. He will transfer this authority to other men.

John 8:28 - Jesus says He does nothing on His own authority. Similarly, the apostles will do nothing on their own authority. Their authority comes from God.

John 12:49 - The father’s authority is transferred to the Son. The Son does not speak on his own. This is a transfer of divine authority.

John 13:20 - Jesus says, “he who receives anyone who I send, receives Me.” He who receives the apostles, receives Christ Himself. He who rejects the apostles and their successors, rejects Christ.

John 14:10 - Jesus says the Word He speaks is not His own authority, but from the Father. The gift is from the Father to Jesus to the apostles.

John 16:14-15 - what the Father has, the Son has, and the Son gives it to the apostles. The authority is not lessened or mitigated.

John 17:18; 20:21 - as the Father sends the Son, the Son sends the apostles. The apostles have divinely appointed authority.

Acts 20:28 - the apostles are shepherds and guardians appointed by the Holy Spirit / 1 Peter 2:25 - Jesus is the Shepherd and Guardian. The apostles, by the power of the Spirit, share Christ’s ministry and authority.

Jer. 23:1-8; Ezek. 34:1-10 - the shepherds must shepherd the sheep, or they will be held accountable by God.

Eph. 2:20 - the Christian faith is built upon the foundation of the apostles. The word “foundation” proves that it does not die with apostles, but carries on through succession.

Eph. 2:20; Rev. 21:9,14 - the words “household,” “Bride of the Lamb,” the “new Jerusalem” are all metaphors for the Church whose foundation is the apostles
 
II. Authority is Transferred by the Sacrament of Ordination

Acts 1:15-26 - the first thing Peter does after Jesus ascends into heaven is implement apostolic succession. Matthias is ordained with full apostolic authority. Only the Catholic Church can demonstrate an unbroken apostolic lineage to the apostles in union with Peter through the sacrament of ordination and thereby claim to teach with Christ’s own authority.

Acts 1:20 - a successor of Judas is chosen. The authority of his office (his “bishopric”) is respected notwithstanding his egregious sin. The necessity to have apostolic succession in order for the Church to survive was understood by all. God never said, “I’ll give you leaders with authority for about 400 years, but after the Bible is compiled, you are all on your own.”

Acts 1:22 - literally, “one must be ordained” to be a witness with us of His resurrection. Apostolic ordination is required in order to teach with Christ’s authority.

Acts 6:6 - apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority has transferred beyond the original twelve apostles as the Church has grown.

Acts 9:17-19 - even Paul, who was directly chosen by Christ, only becomes a minister after the laying on of hands by a bishop. This is a powerful proof-text for the necessity of sacramental ordination in order to be a legitimate successor of the apostles.

Acts 13:3 - apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority must come from a Catholic bishop.

Acts 14:23 - the apostles and newly-ordained men appointed elders to have authority throughout the Church.

Acts 15:22-27 - preachers of the Word must be sent by the bishops in union with the Church. We must trace this authority to the apostles.

2 Cor. 1:21-22 - Paul writes that God has commissioned certain men and sealed them with the Holy Spirit as a guarantee.

Col 1:25 - Paul calls his position a divine “office.” An office has successors. It does not terminate at death. Or it’s not an office. See also Heb. 7:23 – an office continues with another successor after the previous office-holder’s death.

1 Tim. 3:1 - Paul uses the word “episcopoi” (bishop) which requires an office. Everyone understood that Paul’s use of episcopoi and office meant it would carry on after his death by those who would succeed him.

1 Tim. 4:14 - again, apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination).

1 Tim. 5:22 - Paul urges Timothy to be careful in laying on the hands (ordaining others). The gift of authority is a reality and cannot be used indiscriminately.

2 Tim. 1:6 - Paul again reminds Timothy the unique gift of God that he received through the laying on of hands.

2 Tim. 4:1-6 - at end of Paul’s life, Paul charges Timothy with the office of his ministry . We must trace true apostolic lineage back to a Catholic bishop.

2 Tim. 2:2 - this verse shows God’s intention is to transfer authority to successors (here, Paul to Timothy to 3rd to 4th generation). It goes beyond the death of the apostles.

Titus 1:5; Luke 10:1 - the elders of the Church are appointed and hold authority. God has His children participate in Christ’s work.

1 John 4:6 - whoever knows God listens to us (the bishops and the successors to the apostles). This is the way we discern truth and error (not just by reading the Bible and interpreting it for ourselves).

Exodus 18:25-26 - Moses appoints various heads over the people of God. We see a hierarchy, a transfer of authority and succession.

Exodus 40:15 - the physical anointing shows that God intended a perpetual priesthood with an identifiable unbroken succession.

Numbers 3:3 - the sons of Aaron were formally “anointed” priests in “ordination” to minister in the priests’ “office.”

Numbers 16:40 - shows God’s intention of unbroken succession within His kingdom on earth. Unless a priest was ordained by Aaron and his descendants, he had no authority.

Numbers 27:18-20 - shows God’s intention that, through the “laying on of hands,” one is commissioned and has authority.

Deut. 34:9 - Moses laid hands upon Joshua, and because of this, Joshua was obeyed as successor, full of the spirit of wisdom.

Sirach 45:15 - Moses ordains Aaron and anoints him with oil. There is a transfer of authority through formal ordination.
 
Tradition / Church Fathers
I. The Church Has Apostolic Succession

“And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first-fruits [of their labours], having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe. Nor was this any new thing, since indeed many ages before it was written concerning bishops and deacons. For thus saith the Scripture a certain place, ‘I will appoint their bishops s in righteousness, and their deacons in faith.’… Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry…For our sin will not be small, if we eject from the episcopate those who have blamelessly and holily fulfilled its duties.” Pope Clement, Epistle to Corinthians, 42, 44 (A.D. 98).

“For what is the bishop but one who beyond all others possesses all power and authority, so far as it is possible for a man to possess it, who according to his ability has been made an imitator of the Christ off God? And what is the presbytery but a sacred assembly, the counselors and assessors of the bishop? And what are the deacons but imitators of the angelic powers, fulfilling a pure and blameless ministry unto him, as…Anencletus and Clement to Peter?” Ignatius, To the Trallians, 7 (A.D. 110).

“Hegesippus in the five books of Memoirs which have come down to us has left a most complete record of his own views. In them he states that on a journey to Rome he met a great many bishops, and that he received the same doctrine from all. It is fitting to hear what he says after making some remarks about the epistle of Clement to the Corinthians. His words are as follows: ‘And the church of Corinth continued in the true faith until Primus was bishop in Corinth. I conversed with them on my way to Rome, and abode with the Corinthians many days, during which we were mutually refreshed in the true doctrine. And when I had come to Rome I remained a there until Anicetus, whose deacon was Eleutherus. And Anicetus was succeeded by Soter, and he by Eleutherus. In every succession, and in every city that is held which is preached by the law and the prophets and the Lord.’” Hegesippus, Memoirs, fragment in Eusebius Ecclesiatical History, 4:22 (A.D. 180).

“True knowledge is [that which consists in] the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient constitution of the Church throughout all the world, and the distinctive manifestation of the body of Christ according to the successions of the bishops, by which they have handed down that Church which exists in every place, and has come even unto us, being guarded and preserved without any forging of Scriptures, by a very complete system of doctrine, and neither receiving addition nor [suffering] curtailment [in the truths which she believes]; and [it consists in] reading [the word of God] without falsification, and a lawful and diligent exposition in harmony with the Scriptures, both without danger and without blasphemy; and [above all, it consists in] the pre-eminent gift of love, which is more precious than knowledge, more glorious than prophecy, and which excels all the other gifts [of God].” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 4:33:8 (A.D. 180).
 
“It is my purpose to write an account of the successions of the holy apostles, as well as of the times which have elapsed from the days of our Saviour to our own; and to relate the many important events which are said to have occurred in the history of the Church; and to mention those who have governed and presided over the Church in the most prominent parishes, and those who in each generation have proclaimed the divine word either orally or in writing… When Nero was in the eighth year of his reign, Annianus succeeded Mark the evangelist in the administration of the parish of Alexandria…Linus …was Peter’s successor in the episcopate of the church there…Clement also, who was appointed third bishop of the church at Rome.” Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History,1:1,2:24, (A.D. 325).

“Lo! In these three successions, as in a mystery and a figure … Under the three pastors,–there were manifold shepherds” Ephraem, Nisbene Hymns, The Bishops of Nisibis (Jacob, Babu, Valgesh), 13,14 (A.D. 350).

“[W]hile before your election you lived to yourself, after it, you live for your flock. And before you had received the grace of the episcopate, no one knew you; but after you became one, the laity expect you to bring them food, namely instruction from the Scriptures … For if all were of the same mind as your present advisers, how would you have become a Christian, since there would be no bishops? Or if our successors are to inherit this state of mind, how will the Churches be able to hold together?” Athanasius, To Dracontius, Epistle 49 (A.D. 355).

“**elieve as we believe, we, who are, by succession from the blessed apostles, bishops; confess as we and they have confessed, the only Son of God, and thus shalt thou obtain forgiveness for thy numerous crimes.” Lucifer of Calaris, On St. Athanasius (A.D. 361).

“[W]e shall not recede from the faith … as once laid it continues even to this say, through the tradition of the fathers, according to the succession from the apostles, even to the discussion had at Nicea against the heresy which had, at that period, sprung up.” Hilary of Poitiers, History Fragment 7 (ante A.D. 367).

“[D]uring the days of that Anicetus, bishop of Rome, who succeeded Pius and his predecessors, For, in Rome, Peter and Paul were the first both apostles and bishops; then came Linus, then Cletus … However the succession of the bishops in Rome was in the following order. Peter and Paul, and Cletus, Clement…” Epiphanius, Panarion, 27:6 (A.D. 377).

“He [St. Athanasius] is led up to the throne of Saint Mark, to succeed him in piety, no less than in office; in the latter indeed at a great distance from him, in the former, which is the genuine right of succession, following him closely. For unity in doctrine deserves unity in office; and a rival teacher sets up a rival throne; the one is a successor in reality, the other but in name. For it is not the intruder, but he whose rights are intruded upon, who is the successor, not the lawbreaker, but the lawfully appointed, not the man of contrary opinions, but the man of the same faith; if this is not what we mean by successor, he succeeds in the same sense as disease to health, darkness to light, storm to calm, and frenzy to sound sense.” Gregory of Nazianzen, Oration 21:8 (A.D. 380).

“For they [Novatians] have not the succession of Peter, who hold not the chair of Peter, which they rend by wicked schism; and this, too, they do, wickedly denying that sins can be forgiven even in the Church, whereas it was said to Peter: ‘I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatsoever thou shall loose on earth shall be loosed also in heaven.’” Ambrose, Concerning Repentance, 7:33 (A.D. 384).

“It has been ordained by the apostles and their successors, that nothing be read in the Catholic Church, except the law, and the prophets, and the Gospels.” Philastrius of Brescia, On Heresies (ante A.D. 387).**
 
Wow Ronald, this thread was not made for you to promote the LDS. Start a new one if you want to, but as the OP said, it’s clearly between Catholicism and Orthodoxy. Joseph Smith didn’t make the cut.
 
Wow Ronald, this thread was not made for you to promote the LDS. Start a new one if you want to, but as the OP said, it’s clearly between Catholicism and Orthodoxy. Joseph Smith didn’t make the cut.
Joseph Smith is con-artist. He con many people into the false religion of Mormonism founded in the 1800s.
 
  1. MUST CLAIM REVELATION FROM GOD
    Amos 3:7
    7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
Revelation stopped with the Apostles, what you are telling me is that God has not spoken to mankind for 2000 years through his Prophets, I ask you with tears in my eyes why not. ??? when mankind needs it more today than ever before in its history.
Well He sure as HELL didn’t choose a polygamist pedophile to reveal His truth. I would like to know where, in Human history, the prophets ever spoke of “celestial marriage”, “ascension to godhood”, or of so many of the “teachings” of Joseph Smith? Both are 100% against scripture.

No, the Lord has spoken of false prophets and antichrists which have gone out into the world. JS and Mohammed being just two. Amazing how both had sexual “interests” which lead them to underage girls and multiple spouses - directly against scripture. The devil’s weakness is his lack of imagination.
 
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