In first video message, Pope Francis stresses unity: 'We are all children of God' [CNA]

[JPUSC]

Francis delivered his message by sharing a story of a Catholic who asked a priest if atheists were saved by Christ.

“They complain,” Francis said, “If he is not one of us, he cannot do good. If he is not of our party, he cannot do good.” He explained that Jesus corrected them, “Do not hinder him, he says, let him do good.”

The disciples, Pope Francis explained, “were a little intolerant,” closed off by the idea of possessing the truth, convinced that “those who do not have the truth, cannot do good.” “This was wrong… Jesus broadens the horizon.” Pope Francis said, “The root of this possibility of doing good - that we all have - is in creation.”

"Even them, everyone, we all have the duty to do good, Pope Francis said on Vatican Radio.

“Just do good” was his challenge, “and we’ll find a meeting point.”

Francis explained himself, “The Lord created us in His image and likeness, and we are the image of the Lord, and He does good and all of us have this commandment at heart, do good and do not do evil. All of us. ‘But, Father, this is not Catholic! He cannot do good.’ Yes, he can… “The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ, all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone!” We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”

catholic.org/news/hf/faith/story.php?id=51077

 

[TMC]

What a horrible “joke” for a priest to even utter. Shameful.

Of course there is something wrong with it. It contradicts Church teaching. While those of other faiths or no faith MAY end up being saved, if they are saved, it is through the Church. If they make it to Heaven, they will become Catholic first and be Catholic in Heaven.

They MAY be saved, but if they are, they become Catholic through the Church. It’s a horrific “joke” that no priest should ever utter.

I think you may be taking this joke a little too seriously. It is a joke. And it is certainly true that the Church teaches that those of any religion or no religion at all can be saved.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

What a horrible “joke” for a priest to even utter. Shameful.

Of course there is something wrong with it. It contradicts Church teaching. While those of other faiths or no faith MAY end up being saved, if they are saved, it is through the Church. If they make it to Heaven, they will become Catholic first and be Catholic in Heaven.

They MAY be saved, but if they are, they become Catholic through the Church. It’s a horrific “joke” that no priest should ever utter.

What as a priest I find horrible – and horrifying – is that there are actually still Catholics who think that only Catholics are saved.

As our Holy Father says so beautifully in this video, every single human being is a child of God.

 

[CompSciGuy]

I think you may be taking this joke a little too seriously. It is a joke. And it is certainly true that the Church teaches that those of any religion or no religion at all can be saved.

From Lumen Gentium:

1. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord,** “Preach the Gospel to every creature”,(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.**

And from the Catechism:

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. **Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.**336

So to say “people of any religion or no religion at all could be saved” is only half of the story. If you were to go around proclaiming this to people, then the agnostics, etc. would probably say “woohoo, I don’t have to believe in God or repent or become Catholic in order to be saved.” But in reality, you could be leading them to their doom. The mission of Christ and his apostles was and is to make disciples of all nations, to lead people to repentance and faith, not to pat them on the back and tell them they are OK. If our faith and our personal theology are not at least designed to lead people to Catholicism then we are doing something wrong, or worse, believing something wrong. And we should be praying for people’s conversion, and by conversion I mean conversion to the Catholic faith, and not just for the sake of their own personal spiritual preference but for their salvation.

 

[CompSciGuy]

What a horrible “joke” for a priest to even utter. Shameful.

Of course there is something wrong with it. It contradicts Church teaching. While those of other faiths or no faith MAY end up being saved, if they are saved, it is through the Church. If they make it to Heaven, they will become Catholic first and be Catholic in Heaven.

They MAY be saved, but if they are, they become Catholic through the Church. It’s a horrific “joke” that no priest should ever utter.

zz912 knows Church teaching better than most of the people posting in this thread…

 

[CompSciGuy]

Well, I don’t know what to tell you. The pope is the leader of the Christians. And at this point, your religion seems to be determined by your personal preference.

It’s a shame that so many Catholics fought and died for something that is so malleable, changeable, and subject to the whims of societal evolution. But mankind must go on, and I’m sure that the fallen saints in Heaven are laughing with each other about how much they took themselves so seriously.

Cheers!

If what you say is true, then Jesus is a liar, and so are the apostles. If Church teaching is influenced by societal evolution then it has absolutely no credibility whatsoever and cannot claim to be led by the Holy Spirit.

 

[JPUSC]

From Lumen Gentium:

And from the Catechism:

So to say “people of any religion or no religion at all could be saved” is only half of the story. If you were to go around proclaiming this to people, then the agnostics, etc. would probably say “woohoo, I don’t have to believe in God or repent or become Catholic in order to be saved.” But in reality, you could be leading them to their doom. The mission of Christ and his apostles was and is to make disciples of all nations, to lead people to repentance and faith, not to pat them on the back and tell them they are OK. If our faith and our personal theology are not at least designed to lead people to Catholicism then we are doing something wrong, or worse, believing something wrong. And we should be praying for people’s conversion, and by conversion I mean conversion to the Catholic faith, and not just for the sake of their own personal spiritual preference but for their salvation.

Pope Francis: Atheists Can Be Saved if They ‘Obey Their Conscience’

“Given that — and this is fundamental — God’s mercy has no limits if he who asks for mercy does so in contrition and with a sincere heart, the issue for those who do not believe in God is in obeying their own conscience. In fact, listening and obeying it, means deciding about what is perceived to be good or to be evil. The goodness or the wickedness of our behavior depends on this decision.”

Pope Francis

patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2013/09/11/pope-francis-atheists-can-be-saved-if-they-obey-their-conscience/
repubblica.it/cultura/2013/09/11/news/the_pope_s_letter-66336961/

 

[CompSciGuy]

Are you trying to describe Catholic teaching, or fundamentalist evangelical teaching? Catholic teaching is that all may be saved, Christians, non-Christians, atheists. That is what the Church teaches. I understand you may disagree, but that is what the Church teaches.

It is funny how whenever a person quotes scripture in these forums, they get attacked and accused of being fundamentalist. That’s odd, I thought the Church still taught the scripture to be the written word of God. The Church still believes in the gospels, right? Or did they throw those out already?

Josie is right about one thing, the New Testament states very clearly that we must believe in the gospels in order to be saved. This has not changed. As it says in the Catechism (which I quoted in an earlier post) those who through no fault of their own have not received the gospel still have the possibility of salvation. Judging from the state of the world today, I wonder how many people still fit into this category. Regardless, the gospel still states that faith is necessary for salvation. So this must be stressed, not “everyone can be saved.” If you stress the latter then you are doing the world a disservice by promoting religious indifferentism and possibly risking your own soul.

 

[CompSciGuy]

JPUSC:
That being said… the Church also states that we must be seeking God and that our consciences be formed. The one who does not seek God cannot be saved.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

That being said… the Church also states that we must be seeking God and that our consciences be formed. The one who does not seek God cannot be saved.

We must certainly seek God, but what about the Good Samaritan, there was no mention that he was seeking God. The expert in the law asks Jesus, what must I do to find salvation? He could not ask a greater question.

Jesus gave us the parable of the Good Samaritan in reply, as a means to explain the greatest commandments, Now it does not say that the Samaritan ever became a Jew or a Christian. Why would Jesus give us that parable about finding salvation, if it was not possible for the Good Samaritan to have salvation?

He also asks the expert in the law to be like the Good Samaritan, who may not even have a faith.

 

[HolyCrusader007]

What a horrible “joke” for a priest to even utter. Shameful.

Of course there is something wrong with it. It contradicts Church teaching. While those of other faiths or no faith MAY end up being saved, if they are saved, it is through the Church. If they make it to Heaven, they will become Catholic first and be Catholic in Heaven.

They MAY be saved, but if they are, they become Catholic through the Church. It’s a horrific “joke” that no priest should ever utter.

What as a priest I find horrible – and horrifying – is that there are actually still Catholics who think that only Catholics are saved.

As our Holy Father says so beautifully in this video, every single human being is a child of God.

Fr, I pray that zz912 heeds your advice, as well as the advice of Pope Francis. It seems Fr that you have heard the message of Pope Francis…which is based the message of Jesus Christ.

 

[HolyCrusader007]

If there is no need to convert Jews, then they must be fine. I refuse to believe that the Catholic Church is superior to Judaism–a higher gradation–of a salvation-attainable religion. If anything, this video is showing that there is no hierarchy of religions, but that they lie on the same plane. Especially considering recent statements about converting Jews.

Besides, it’s easier to be a Jew in this country. Just watch television or movies, or read about the political class. It’s much easier. There’s a lot of incentive to change horses midstream. So much effort is spent trying to Judaize us, why not give it a try? Especially with this new permission?

It’s just a matter of Coke vs Pepsi, really.

Superiority has nothing to due with Christianity, and everything to do with intolerate groups like the KKK and ISIL. From what I have come away with wrt my study of how Christians should treat non Christians…is that Muslims, Jews, Atheists, Hindus, Buddhists, all non Christians are to be treated with full equality and respect according to the teachings of Jesus Christ.

 

[TMC]

It is funny how whenever a person quotes scripture in these forums, they get attacked and accused of being fundamentalist. That’s odd, I thought the Church still taught the scripture to be the written word of God. The Church still believes in the gospels, right? Or did they throw those out already?

Josie is right about one thing, the New Testament states very clearly that we must believe in the gospels in order to be saved. This has not changed. As it says in the Catechism (which I quoted in an earlier post) those who through no fault of their own have not received the gospel still have the possibility of salvation. Judging from the state of the world today, I wonder how many people still fit into this category. Regardless, the gospel still states that faith is necessary for salvation. So this must be stressed, not “everyone can be saved.” If you stress the latter then you are doing the world a disservice by promoting religious indifferentism and possibly risking your own soul.

Its not that the post quoted scripture, its that the post laid out a fundamentalist evangelical approach to salvation. If that is what he or she believes, they are entitled to that belief. But given that this is a Catholic forum I think its fair to point out that that is not what the Church teaches.

 

[zz912]

What as a priest I find horrible – and horrifying – is that there are actually still Catholics who think that only Catholics are saved.

As our Holy Father says so beautifully in this video, every single human being is a child of God.

Church teaching is explicit. Those outside the faith, who are saved because of their ignorance of the Church, are still saved through the Church. So even Methodists, Baptists, Muslims, atheists, etc who end up being saved, DO become Catholic as they enter Heaven.

This is Church teaching.

And please don’t use a strawman argument technique. My words stand as I wrote them. Please don’t attempt to change what I said and argue against something I didn’t say.

 

[TMC]

Church teaching is explicit. Those outside the faith, who are saved because of their ignorance of the Church, are still saved through the Church. So even Methodists, Baptists, Muslims, atheists, etc who end up being saved, DO become Catholic as they enter Heaven.

This is Church teaching.

And please don’t use a strawman argument technique. My words stand as I wrote them. Please don’t attempt to change what I said and argue against something I didn’t say.

Can you point me to where the Church teaches that everyone who is saved becomes Catholic in heaven?

 

[zz912]

Can you point me to where the Church teaches that everyone who is saved becomes Catholic in heaven?

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that **all salvation comes **from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that** the Church**, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time **the necessity of the Church **which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

 

[TMC]

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that **all salvation comes **from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that** the Church**, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time **the necessity of the Church **which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

OK, no where in there does it say that everyone becomes Catholic in heaven.

 

[JosieN]

Are you trying to describe Catholic teaching, or fundamentalist evangelical teaching? Catholic teaching is that all may be saved, Christians, non-Christians, atheists. That is what the Church teaches. I understand you may disagree, but that is what the Church teaches.

I admit I made a mistake. I have a question for you. Where is the logic in the churches teaching that all may be saved, Christians, non-Christians, atheists, Hindus, Muslims, etc.?On one hand the church tells us not to get divorced and that it is wrong to use birth control other than NFP. We are told it is a sin and sins prevent us from entering Heaven. So Catholics obey this teaching. How is it we are to believe this when atheists and other religions are allowed their freedom to sin in this way and are still saved. Shouldn’t it send them to Hell also? How can they be saved but not us? These comments about “we are all God’s children” goes against everything we have been taught about sin and sinners. Next they will tell us homosexuals will get to heaven.

 

[TMC]

I admit I made a mistake. I have a question for you. Where is the logic in the churches teaching that all may be saved, Christians, non-Christians, atheists, Hindus, Muslims, etc.?On one hand the church tells us not to get divorced and that it is wrong to use birth control other than NFP. We are told it is a sin and sins prevent us from entering Heaven. So Catholics obey this teaching. How is it we are to believe this when atheists and other religions are allowed their freedom to sin in this way and are still saved. Shouldn’t it send them to Hell also? How can they be saved but not us? These comments about “we are all God’s children” goes against everything we have been taught about sin and sinners. Next they will tell us homosexuals will get to heaven.

LOL - of course homosexuals get to heaven!

Catholics don’t follow Catholic teaching just to get to heaven. What merit would there be in that? If Catholics are acting morally simply as a quid pro quo for a better reward that is simply a mercenary transaction, not a admirable moral choice. Catholics follow Catholic teaching to improve the lives of all around them, and to honor God. A good Christian should want to do that regardless of whether it puts him or her in a better position than his neighbor in the next life.

 

[JosieN]

LOL - of course homosexuals get to heaven!

Catholics don’t follow Catholic teaching just to get to heaven. What merit would there be in that? If Catholics are acting morally simply as a quid pro quo for a better reward that is simply a mercenary transaction, not a admirable moral choice. Catholics follow Catholic teaching to improve the lives of all around them, and to honor God. A good Christian should want to do that regardless of whether it puts him or her in a better position than his neighbor in the next life.

“More souls go to Hell because of sins of the flesh than for any other reason.”

Our Lady of Fatima

I guess you don’t believe this.