Why do you assume she was talking about gay folks? Plenty of sins committed by straight people. Gay people can also be saved, of course. Remember the Pope’s comment on this very topic?“More souls go to Hell because of sins of the flesh than for any other reason.”
Our Lady of Fatima
I guess you don’t believe this.
I did not say she was talking about gay people. I assumed sodomy was one of the sins she meant. There are many sins committed by straight people also, but to be saved you must repent and sin no more.Why do you assume she was talking about gay folks? Plenty of sins committed by straight people. Gay people can also be saved, of course. Remember the Pope’s comment on this very topic?
My more important point was regarding your apparent assumption that the only reason to be Catholic is to reserve a seat in heaven, so that Catholics should begrudge the fact that others are saved. That is what I don’t believe.
He said “If someone is gay and he searches for the Lord and has good will, who am I to judge?”I did not say she was talking about gay people. I assumed sodomy was one of the sins she meant. There are many sins committed by straight people also, but to be saved you must repent and sin no more.
Sorry I don’t remember what our Pope said on this topic. I hope the message he gave was to to pray for the souls of these poor sinners who may go to Hell because of sins of the flesh…
I was taught that sins are forgiven when you ask for forgiveness and promise never to do that sin again. Then our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will forgive them and heal their soul. We receive the graces needed to conquer our temptations with His help. He loves us and wants us to be in Heaven with Him and that is why He came to this world and died on the cross. They can go to Heaven and be saved if they do this and believe this.He said “If someone is gay and he searches for the Lord and has good will, who am I to judge?”
I agree that gay people and straight people are both capable of sinning. Why then do you assume that gay people cannot go to heaven?
Catholics may believe it, but many do not obey, we all need to go to confession, and when I go, I could probably cut confession short by saying, the same sins as last time. We have to fight our own demons, and not other people’s. All Eve and Adam did was eat from the Tree Of Knowledge, sounds like no big deal, but in the eyes of God, he knew where this sin would lead, and mankind today is evidence that he is right.On one hand the church tells us not to get divorced and that it is wrong to use birth control other than NFP. We are told it is a sin and sins prevent us from entering Heaven. So Catholics obey this teaching.
I am a Catholic, and if I should have salvation, it will not be though my own efforts, it will be through the grace, mercy and forgiveness of our Lord Jesus Christ. I have family and friends of many faiths and no faith, I pray they may also receive this same grace, mercy and forgiveness.How is it we are to believe this when atheists and other religions are allowed their freedom to sin in this way and are still saved. Shouldn’t it send them to Hell also? How can they be saved but not us? These comments about “we are all God’s children” goes against everything we have been taught about sin and sinners. Next they will tell us homosexuals will get to heaven.
If one does not believe in sin, it does not mean they don’t sin. It means they need our prayers and our assistance to direct them in the right path. I pray for sinners and their salvation. I am not trying to judge them, I am aware I am not the judge. If I am doing something wrong I ask God’s forgiveness.Catholics may believe it, but many do not obey, we all need to go to confession, and when I go, I could probably cut confession short by saying, the same sins as last time. We have to fight our own demons, and not other people’s. All Eve and Adam did was eat from the Tree Of Knowledge, sounds like no big deal, but in the eyes of God, he knew where this sin would lead, and mankind today is evidence that he is right.
I am a Catholic, and if I should have salvation, it will not be though my own efforts, it will be through the grace, mercy and forgiveness of our Lord Jesus Christ. I have family and friends of many faiths and no faith, I pray they may also receive this same grace, mercy and forgiveness.
If you were to select a million random homosexual people, you would not be able to judge them in the same that Jesus will judge them. We shall be judged in the same way that we judge others, so for our own sakes it is far better to be forgiving.
I do not know if you are blind or just intellectually dishonest, or how you interpret the passages “Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel” or the fact that the entire document equates salvation with having full knowledge of Christ. Do you really think that when these people who have never known Christ enter heaven and find Christ the savior of their souls will remain in their false religions in heaven? How ridiculous is that?OK, no where in there does it say that everyone becomes Catholic in heaven.
Gay people can be saved provided they are repentant like everyone else and don’t live an actively gay lifestyle.Why do you assume she was talking about gay folks? Plenty of sins committed by straight people. Gay people can also be saved, of course. Remember the Pope’s comment on this very topic?
My more important point was regarding your apparent assumption that the only reason to be Catholic is to reserve a seat in heaven, so that Catholics should begrudge the fact that others are saved. That is what I don’t believe.
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
The gospel is no different for gay people than it is for anyone else. Repent, believe, be baptized, and continue to repent. How it is fleshed out in their lives is how that differs because their temptations are different than ours. They cannot marry someone of the same sex or engage in gay sex as that is condemned by the commandments and by the Church. Instead they must pick up their cross and follow Jesus.1 Corinthians 6:9
You mean, you think your approach to scripture is more Catholic. So far what I’ve seen is you dismiss the passage and accuse them of being fundamentalist without providing an approved commentary or a snippet from the Catechism to show what you really think the scripture means.Its not that the post quoted scripture, its that the post laid out a fundamentalist evangelical approach to salvation. If that is what he or she believes, they are entitled to that belief. But given that this is a Catholic forum I think its fair to point out that that is not what the Church teaches.
Not to mention, look up in revelation the description of heaven. I guarantee you there will not be muslims chanting praises to the prophet muhammad or hindus worshipping krishna or atheists reading the god delusion.I do not know if you are blind or just intellectually dishonest, or how you interpret the passages “Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel” or the fact that the entire document equates salvation with having full knowledge of Christ. Do you really think that when these people who have never known Christ enter heaven and find Christ the savior of their souls will remain in their false religions in heaven? How ridiculous is that?
Here, why don’t I just leave the entire document here so you can read it for yourself.
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html
“ALL salvation comes…through the Church”.OK, no where in there does it say that everyone becomes Catholic in heaven.
Remember Jesus’ teaching about those who are ignorant, they are not held responsible for their sin, but those who have been informed, their sin remains? For those who are outside the Church, they must still follow the Natural Law, and must follow God as best they know how. Even with that, the Church teaches they MAY be saved.I admit I made a mistake. I have a question for you. Where is the logic in the churches teaching that all may be saved, Christians, non-Christians, atheists, Hindus, Muslims, etc.?On one hand the church tells us not to get divorced and that it is wrong to use birth control other than NFP. We are told it is a sin and sins prevent us from entering Heaven. So Catholics obey this teaching. How is it we are to believe this when atheists and other religions are allowed their freedom to sin in this way and are still saved. Shouldn’t it send them to Hell also? How can they be saved but not us? These comments about “we are all God’s children” goes against everything we have been taught about sin and sinners. Next they will tell us homosexuals will get to heaven.
You seem to think there are only two choices: 1) its OK to sin or 2) go to Hell. That is a false dichotomy. It can be wrong to sin and sinners can nonetheless be saved. That concept seems to trouble you. Perhaps you resent that you could focus on doing good in this life and get the same “reward” as others who are not behaving as well. Again, the reason to be Christian and do good in this life is NOT just to get to heaven. Doing good in this life is its own reward.I was taught that sins are forgiven when you ask for forgiveness and promise never to do that sin again. Then our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will forgive them and heal their soul. We receive the graces needed to conquer our temptations with His help. He loves us and wants us to be in Heaven with Him and that is why He came to this world and died on the cross. They can go to Heaven and be saved if they do this and believe this.
The popes message is confusing. I know that Jesus is the judge, but what does a sinners good will have to do with a sinful act? Does he mean it is okay to sin as long as you have good will? Here is what Saint Augustine wrote about homosexuality.
Saint Augustine (354-430)
The greatest of the Fathers of the West and one of the great Doctors of the Church, Saint Augustine laid the foundations of Catholic theology. In his celebrated Confessions, he thus condemns homosexuality:
“Those offences which be contrary to nature are everywhere and at all times to be held in detestation and punished; such were those of the Sodomites, which should all nations commit, they should all be held guilty of the same crime by the divine law, which hath not so made men that they should in that way abuse one another. For even that fellowship which should be between God and us is violated, when that same nature of which He is author is polluted by the perversity of lust.”
Pretty quick with the insults, aren’t we? I can confirm that I am neither blind nor a liar. And yet it remains true that nothing in Lumen Gentium (which I have read many times, thanks) says that all the saved undergo a post-mortum conversion to Catholicism. Pope Francis himself has said that there is no “Catholic God”, and that God is not Catholic.I do not know if you are blind or just intellectually dishonest, or how you interpret the passages “Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel” or the fact that the entire document equates salvation with having full knowledge of Christ. Do you really think that when these people who have never known Christ enter heaven and find Christ the savior of their souls will remain in their false religions in heaven? How ridiculous is that?
Here, why don’t I just leave the entire document here so you can read it for yourself.
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html
The Church teaches that Christ is necessary for salvation, but also teaches that one can be saved without being Christian. I am quite confident in that statement.You mean, you think your approach to scripture is more Catholic. So far what I’ve seen is you dismiss the passage and accuse them of being fundamentalist without providing an approved commentary or a snippet from the Catechism to show what you really think the scripture means.
The truth is, if you really dig you will find the Church also teaches Christ and the Church as necessary for salvation, not this weird universalism that you are describing. A lot of Catholics take a few lines from Lumen Gentium and milk them for all they are worth and twist them around to mean what they do not mean.
We have reached a point in these forums where there are more heretics and schismatic who are closer to Catholic truth than the Catholics are.
You mean, you think your approach to scripture is more Catholic. So far what I’ve seen is you dismiss the passage and accuse them of being fundamentalist without providing an approved commentary or a snippet from the Catechism to show what you really think the scripture means.
The truth is, if you really dig you will find the Church also teaches Christ and the Church as necessary for salvation, not this weird universalism that you are describing. A lot of Catholics take a few lines from Lumen Gentium and milk them for all they are worth and twist them around to mean what they do not mean.
We have reached a point in these forums where there are more heretics and schismatic who are closer to Catholic truth than the Catholics are.
Invincibly Ignorant
The Church recognizes that God does not condemn those who are innocently ignorant of the truth about his offer of salvation. Regarding the doctrine in question, the Catechism of the Catholic Church (quoting Vatican II document Lumen Gentium, 16) states:
This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation. (CCC 847)
Vatican II document Gaudium Et Spes teaches similarly on the possibility of salvation:
All this holds true not only for Christians, but for all men of good will in whose hearts grace works in an unseen way. For, since Christ died for all men, and since the ultimate vocation of man is in fact one, and divine, we ought to believe that the Holy Spirit in a manner known only to God offers to every man the possibility of being associated with this paschal mystery. (22)
This teaching is consistent with Jesus’ own teaching about those who innocently reject him: “If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin” (Jn 15:22).
But once a person comes to know the truth, he must embrace it or he will be culpable of rejecting it. We see this in Jesus’ words to the Pharisees: “If you were blind, you would have no guilt; but now that you say, ‘We see,’ your guilt remains” (Jn 9:41). Paul taught likewise concerning the Gentiles:
When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. (Rom 2:14-16)
Notice Paul’s carefully chosen words: “their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them.” Paul did not say that those who are innocently ignorant of the truth will be saved; he simply keeps open the possibility of it.
Similarly, he wrote: “*s God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since God is one; and he will justify the circumcised on the ground of their faith and the uncircumcised through their faith” (Rom 3:29-30).
Catechism of the Catholic Church
The Church and non-Christians
839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325
The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”,328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329
840 And when one considers the future, God’s People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.
841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."330
842 The Church’s bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:
All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331
843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332
844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:
Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333
845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.” According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood.334
"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338
The greatest commandment on it’s own almost has no meaning, unless it is linked with the second greatest commandment.2088 The first commandment requires us to nourish and protect our faith with prudence and vigilance, and to reject everything that is opposed to it.
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c1a1.htm
I**. “YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD AND HIM ONLY SHALL YOU SERVE”**