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In order to love, I think it absolutely necessary to believe in God
- Status
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OvrlapnMagstria
Guest
Exactly. This is what I was trying to say… hopefully it didn’t get too garbled. Bob’s love for his wife may be similar enough to Joe’s love for his wife so that they can both use the term “love”, but there are surely differences between the two.
In addition, even if their two experiences of love were of the same type, we have no yardstick to objectively measure Bob and Joe’s love. How can we say whether Bob or Joe have stronger love? It’s like when a new couple has the classic argument: “I love you more.” “no, i love you more.” “No, I love you more.” etc. Its cute and all, but there no way of knowing who really loves the other more.
R
RainbowNight
Guest
It all depends on the person, I think it’s not true to say that a person who believes in a god is able to love more than a person who doesn’t, what about those who believe in many gods, are they able to love more than monotheists who believe in a single god?
Each one of us is thankful for something, if a person does not believe in a god does not mean that he/she is not thankful for life, nature, people and existence in general…love you all
Each one of us is thankful for something, if a person does not believe in a god does not mean that he/she is not thankful for life, nature, people and existence in general…love you all
C
Charlemagne_II
Guest
Shoe
*
Belief is not required to love, however belief is required for holiness.*
So why isn’t a holy love better than one that is not grounded in holiness?
*
Belief is not required to love, however belief is required for holiness.*
So why isn’t a holy love better than one that is not grounded in holiness?
A
Abba
Guest
Good, you are going to need an open mind. Heads up; you are going to need patience and you will need to make an effort to try to understand what I will try to share with you. I am not approaching this as a debate but instead, I am just going to try and share with you my understanding in response to your objection. You do not want to attack until you understand and let’s try not to derail the topic and keep focused.
Many people here are making a bald assertion that love is enhanced through belief, but they have absolutely no way of backing that claim up. You cannot measure two peoples love and compare them.
My hope here is to transmit to you my understanding of how this is so. Then, after you understand, you can reflect on it and decide what you think about it. The challenge I am facing now is in the transmission - to communicate it and actually verbalize it. Before I begin
I want to say a little prayer:
Code:
Come Holy Spirit
Come Holy Spirit, fill the hearts of your faithful and kindle in them the fire of your love.
Send forth your Spirit, and they shall be created.
And You shall renew the face of the earth.
Let us pray.
O, God, who by the light of the Holy Spirit, did instruct the hearts of the faithful, grant that by the same Holy Spirit we may be truly wise and ever enjoy His consolations. Through Christ Our Lord. Amen.Now, I think the first thing we need to do is clarify what love it is that we are talking about and what are the different types of love that humans have traditionally distinguished. We are not going to get into a big analysis on the loves in our attempt to stay focused.
Okay, so people usually distinguish between four types of love: Storge, Philia, Eros and Agape. I am speaking here of agape which immediately does away with a lot of the confusion regarding the love between couples, etc…
I am sure others could do a better job than I in defining the four loves, but, for all intents and purposes:
Storge - love of family members, can be sacrificial…
Philia - the love you find with friendship…not so sacrificial…
Eros - romantic love
Agape - unselfish love, christian love…
I want to do a better job at distinguishing these loves… hold up…I’ll be back…
Well, here is how they are defined on wiki:
1 Storge - Affection
2 Phileo - Friendship
3 Eros - Romance
4 Agape - Unconditional Love
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Four_LovesLet’s accept these distinctions for now for my little presentation, because a whole forum could be set up just to discuss these loves etc…
CORRECTION: The last sentence of this section here from my previous post should have read wanted to not did not wanted. Sorry, I was really sleepy. Also, I want to apologize for my bad writing…oh, well.
Btw, one of the potential student ran after me when I left the building and said that based on what I had said that he no longer not only not wanted to be a pastor but that he did not want to belong to that sect. He said that he wanted to join the Church Our Lord Jesus Christ established. I directed him to speak with a priest at the nearby Cathedral.
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Trishie
Guest
Hi, on face value that might seem true but it limits our understanding of the love of the God who shines on good and bad alike.
Would you say that my kind and generous brother who hasn’t believed in God for many years, does not love…yet he is a kind and loyal husband, a good father…
He and his wife raised their three children and then one after another adopted three handicapped children, two severely handicapped. **How many of us who say we believe in God, and love God, would willingly and freely adopt even one of someone else’s rejected handicapped child? **
One of these children required my son and his wife (also not a believer) to fund several surgeries to gradually open the child’s jaw so that she could eat through the mouth, not a tube as she had from birth. And they also had surgery so she could hear. He and his wife have cared lovingly and wisely day after difficult day for these three for many years. Note, I said adopted, not fostered.
My brother relinquished his plans to retire early and give his time to wood-carving. The children have required so much love and care to take them past the awful diagnoses given by doctors at the time of adoption. The easiest one is the Downs Syndrome child.
Will you say that my brother does not love…and do not doubt the truth that his unbelief is very clear and genuine?
No, God’s love is more generous than you think. It does extend to others who through no fault of their own, honestly cannot believe in Him. Just because they don’t believe in God…with honesty…which sometimes gives them more integrity than some believers, who are lukewarm and unfaithful…yes some unbelievers are more full of God’s unselfish love than some believers…they don’t even expect the least eternal reward, so are they not, in fact, more pure in their love because they expect nothing in return?
They are God’s own, and when they die, their judgement will be as Jesus said in Matthew 25, verses 31-46.
God bless you.
Would you say that my kind and generous brother who hasn’t believed in God for many years, does not love…yet he is a kind and loyal husband, a good father…
He and his wife raised their three children and then one after another adopted three handicapped children, two severely handicapped. **How many of us who say we believe in God, and love God, would willingly and freely adopt even one of someone else’s rejected handicapped child? **
One of these children required my son and his wife (also not a believer) to fund several surgeries to gradually open the child’s jaw so that she could eat through the mouth, not a tube as she had from birth. And they also had surgery so she could hear. He and his wife have cared lovingly and wisely day after difficult day for these three for many years. Note, I said adopted, not fostered.
My brother relinquished his plans to retire early and give his time to wood-carving. The children have required so much love and care to take them past the awful diagnoses given by doctors at the time of adoption. The easiest one is the Downs Syndrome child.
Will you say that my brother does not love…and do not doubt the truth that his unbelief is very clear and genuine?
No, God’s love is more generous than you think. It does extend to others who through no fault of their own, honestly cannot believe in Him. Just because they don’t believe in God…with honesty…which sometimes gives them more integrity than some believers, who are lukewarm and unfaithful…yes some unbelievers are more full of God’s unselfish love than some believers…they don’t even expect the least eternal reward, so are they not, in fact, more pure in their love because they expect nothing in return?
They are God’s own, and when they die, their judgement will be as Jesus said in Matthew 25, verses 31-46.
God bless you.
A
Abba
Guest
So, moving right along here; what love exactly is it that I am talking about? Well, there are scholars that make the grand distinction with love, being either selfless or selfish love. Agape being selfless and, Eros, Philia and Storge being selfish love with different degrees. I do not understand them in this way. Let me tell you how I understand it…
Storge, Philia and Eros are reflections of Divine Love. So, I do not distinguish with SPE being bad and Agape being the good love. No, SPE I understand to be reflections of Agape when by Agape we mean Divine Love.
The Love I am talking about then is Agape or Divine Love.
How are we doing so far, OvrlapnMagstria ?
Storge, Philia and Eros are reflections of Divine Love. So, I do not distinguish with SPE being bad and Agape being the good love. No, SPE I understand to be reflections of Agape when by Agape we mean Divine Love.
The Love I am talking about then is Agape or Divine Love.
How are we doing so far, OvrlapnMagstria ?
A
Abba
Guest
Nice post Trishie.Hi, on face value that might seem true but it limits our understanding of the love of the God who shines on good and bad alike.
Would you say that my kind and generous brother who hasn’t believed in God for many years, does not love…yet he is a kind and loyal husband, a good father…
He and his wife raised their three children and then one after another adopted three handicapped children, two severely handicapped. **How many of us who say we believe in God, and love God, would willingly and freely adopt even one of someone else’s rejected handicapped child? **
One of these children required my son and his wife (also not a believer) to fund several surgeries to gradually open the child’s jaw so that she could eat through the mouth, not a tube as she had from birth. And they also had surgery so she could hear. He and his wife have cared lovingly and wisely day after difficult day for these three for many years. Note, I said adopted, not fostered.
My brother relinquished his plans to retire early and give his time to wood-carving. The children have required so much love and care to take them past the awful diagnoses given by doctors at the time of adoption. The easiest one is the Downs Syndrome child.
Will you say that my brother does not love…and do not doubt the truth that his unbelief is very clear and genuine?
No, God’s love is more generous than you think. It does extend to others who through no fault of their own, honestly cannot believe in Him. Just because they don’t believe in God…with honesty…which sometimes gives them more integrity than some believers, who are lukewarm and unfaithful…yes some unbelievers are more full of God’s unselfish love than some believers…they don’t even expect the least eternal reward, so are they not, in fact, more pure in their love because they expect nothing in return?
They are God’s own, and when they die, their judgement will be as Jesus said in Matthew 25, verses 31-46.
God bless you.
The Sheep and the Goats
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
The bold part needs a little distinction though. A lady I once met whose child was born deformed told me: God knows who he gives special children to. She said that she never imagined her life would turn out the way it did but, she was at peace and loved her daughter dearly. I don’t know that my love for God and my brothers and sisters should be measure by my willingness to adopt a special child. There is a lot more than then meets the eyes. We could do it in response to a need of our own, etc…Nonetheless, people serve in different manners and demonstrate their love in different ways.
C
Charlemagne_II
Guest
Trishie
No, God’s love is more generous than you think. It does extend to others who through no fault of their own, honestly cannot believe in Him. Just because they don’t believe in God…with honesty…which sometimes gives them more integrity than some believers, who are lukewarm and unfaithful…yes some unbelievers are more full of God’s unselfish love than some believers…they don’t even expect the least eternal reward, so are they not, in fact, more pure in their love because they expect nothing in return?
They are God’s own, and when they die, their judgement will be as Jesus said in Matthew 25, verses 31-46.
It may be that the love of these children will bring your brother and his wife back to Christ. However, this is not guaranteed. But here is what is guaranteed:
“Everyone who acknowledges me before others I will acknowledge before my heavenly Father. But whoever denies me before others, I will deny before my heavenly Father.” Matthew 10:32-33
Pray for the conversion of your brother. I will pray for him too.
But please don’t be complacent in the belief that human love is a perfectly acceptable substitute for the love of God.
As you know, if you do die without repenting of your sins, you’re in big trouble. Your brother and his wife are not saints, though you have painted them as such. If you don’t believe in God, there is no repentance possible.
Most animals love their young and care for them with sometimes heroic sacrifice. We are more than animals. We are expected to rise up and converse with God and love Him with all our hearts and minds and souls. That way lies salvation.
Is your brother rearing his children to be atheists? If so, do you think he is doing them a great favor?
No, God’s love is more generous than you think. It does extend to others who through no fault of their own, honestly cannot believe in Him. Just because they don’t believe in God…with honesty…which sometimes gives them more integrity than some believers, who are lukewarm and unfaithful…yes some unbelievers are more full of God’s unselfish love than some believers…they don’t even expect the least eternal reward, so are they not, in fact, more pure in their love because they expect nothing in return?
They are God’s own, and when they die, their judgement will be as Jesus said in Matthew 25, verses 31-46.
It may be that the love of these children will bring your brother and his wife back to Christ. However, this is not guaranteed. But here is what is guaranteed:
“Everyone who acknowledges me before others I will acknowledge before my heavenly Father. But whoever denies me before others, I will deny before my heavenly Father.” Matthew 10:32-33
Pray for the conversion of your brother. I will pray for him too.
But please don’t be complacent in the belief that human love is a perfectly acceptable substitute for the love of God.
As you know, if you do die without repenting of your sins, you’re in big trouble. Your brother and his wife are not saints, though you have painted them as such. If you don’t believe in God, there is no repentance possible.
Most animals love their young and care for them with sometimes heroic sacrifice. We are more than animals. We are expected to rise up and converse with God and love Him with all our hearts and minds and souls. That way lies salvation.
Is your brother rearing his children to be atheists? If so, do you think he is doing them a great favor?
S
Sair
Guest
Charlemagne II wrote,
You seem to be speaking here of sexual love, and certainly if that is based upon physical attraction alone, it is inadequate to cope with the ongoing demands of having a relationship with another person. On the other hand, if sexual attraction is accompanied by genuine affection and friendship, acceptance of the other as a human being with all their attendant foibles, and a desire for that person’s happiness as your own, the relationship will be much stronger. Though I must say I fail to see how belief in God is a prerequisite for any of these things.
R
RainbowNight
Guest
Thank you! I enjoyed reading it, very ethical response…All the best for your familyHi, on face value that might seem true but it limits our understanding of the love of the God who shines on good and bad alike.
Would you say that my kind and generous brother who hasn’t believed in God for many years, does not love…yet he is a kind and loyal husband, a good father…
He and his wife raised their three children and then one after another adopted three handicapped children, two severely handicapped. **How many of us who say we believe in God, and love God, would willingly and freely adopt even one of someone else’s rejected handicapped child? **
One of these children required my son and his wife (also not a believer) to fund several surgeries to gradually open the child’s jaw so that she could eat through the mouth, not a tube as she had from birth. And they also had surgery so she could hear. He and his wife have cared lovingly and wisely day after difficult day for these three for many years. Note, I said adopted, not fostered.
My brother relinquished his plans to retire early and give his time to wood-carving. The children have required so much love and care to take them past the awful diagnoses given by doctors at the time of adoption. The easiest one is the Downs Syndrome child.
Will you say that my brother does not love…and do not doubt the truth that his unbelief is very clear and genuine?
No, God’s love is more generous than you think. It does extend to others who through no fault of their own, honestly cannot believe in Him. Just because they don’t believe in God…with honesty…which sometimes gives them more integrity than some believers, who are lukewarm and unfaithful…yes some unbelievers are more full of God’s unselfish love than some believers…they don’t even expect the least eternal reward, so are they not, in fact, more pure in their love because they expect nothing in return?
They are God’s own, and when they die, their judgement will be as Jesus said in Matthew 25, verses 31-46.
God bless you.
A
Abba
Guest
I want to say that, it is not that I do not understand the different types (Storge, Philia, Eros and Agape) of love as different in degrees of selfishness and unselfishness, but, I want to approach this from another angle too. The angle that, God is Love and His essence is present in His creation and in these different types of love. What we are seeing are reflections of God. Although, what I also see is that he created the with those distinction not only to reflect his being - Love, but also, other aspects of his being which are reflected in human love. Such as, for instance, the love of man and a woman which reflects God’s love for his Church, and the love between a parent and child, reflects God’s paternal love for each and every one of us. To say that, the particular forms of human loves do not exist by accident but, God created them as such because it reflects his being in his relationship with humanity. And, they all because he is pure and absolute love himself, these different loves reflect him each when they reflect pure and divine love.
Yet, certainly, a distinguishing factor of love is selfless and unselfish love. In this distinction there are degrees. We do not have a way to measure it as we do with ‘velocity’, but just because we do not have a way does not mean that there are not degrees and intensities - I know that there are - my faith tells me so.
Our Lord Jesus Chris himself said:
John 15:13
Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.
Notice how he uses the word greater… and what characteristic is he using? Selfless. This characteristic reflects the Trinity.
Consider that we are finite beings and God is infinite, we cannot limit God who is pure and absolute love himself to the intensity and degrees that finite beings can experience? Correct? He existed before the creation of the universe and love existed before the creation of the universe - God is not limited in his being by human limitations.
God, who is pure and absolute Love, can give the gift to a faithful to experience him more intensely. This is beautiful! It is beyond human love and the experiences of love human experience, it is a Gift from God, and when you experience it what you are experiencing is pure an absolute love and with such intensity that you think that your heart will explode inside of you. We can experience God by experiencing his presence with different intensity. This I understand can be found in the Catholic Church which is the Church Our Lord Jesus established.
Peace,
Abba
Yet, certainly, a distinguishing factor of love is selfless and unselfish love. In this distinction there are degrees. We do not have a way to measure it as we do with ‘velocity’, but just because we do not have a way does not mean that there are not degrees and intensities - I know that there are - my faith tells me so.
Our Lord Jesus Chris himself said:
John 15:13
Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.
Notice how he uses the word greater… and what characteristic is he using? Selfless. This characteristic reflects the Trinity.
Consider that we are finite beings and God is infinite, we cannot limit God who is pure and absolute love himself to the intensity and degrees that finite beings can experience? Correct? He existed before the creation of the universe and love existed before the creation of the universe - God is not limited in his being by human limitations.
God, who is pure and absolute Love, can give the gift to a faithful to experience him more intensely. This is beautiful! It is beyond human love and the experiences of love human experience, it is a Gift from God, and when you experience it what you are experiencing is pure an absolute love and with such intensity that you think that your heart will explode inside of you. We can experience God by experiencing his presence with different intensity. This I understand can be found in the Catholic Church which is the Church Our Lord Jesus established.
Peace,
Abba
C
Charlemagne_II
Guest
Sair
*
Though I must say I fail to see how belief in God is a prerequisite for any of these things. *
Could that be because you are an atheist?
*
Though I must say I fail to see how belief in God is a prerequisite for any of these things. *
Could that be because you are an atheist?
R
RainbowNight
Guest
This is a non selfish love, to give the most important thing you have (your life) for others, but humans can do it too? A mother can give her life for her children and other examples that can be mentioned, is it a pure love in this case?
C
Charlemagne_II
Guest
If we take the title of this thread literally, of course one does not need to know God in order to love. The atheist is certainly capable of love, human love. But this is a lower order of love than I think you will find with the person who loves God too. Almost any animal will die to protect its young. But will any animal die for its faith in God? We are called to be better than animals, to serve our Creator, to love our Creator, to be thankful to our Creator.
Not to be thankful to the one who Created the universe and put you in it is to be an ingrate.
I don’t think I could bring myself to put my trust in anyone who could not put his trust in God.
I might love him, but I wouldn’t trust him.
Not to be thankful to the one who Created the universe and put you in it is to be an ingrate.
I don’t think I could bring myself to put my trust in anyone who could not put his trust in God.
I might love him, but I wouldn’t trust him.
R
RainbowNight
Guest
Sure an atheist won’t die in faith in God, because he/she doesn’t believe in the existence of a God, as much as a christian won’t die for the gods of other religions, but that does not mean that they can’t love as much as others simply because they don’t have a god to die for it! What would be easier than dying for a God, if you believe that this God will give you eternal life?
An atheist won’t be thankful for a creator which he thinks is not there, I’m thankful for things I’m sure they exist, life, family, nature, people, friends…
Why?
Why would you love an atheist, but not trust an atheist, on what your love is based in this case, isn’t each person different, I hope you are not generalizing that all atheists cannot be trusted.
T
tonyrey
Guest
It is not absolutely necessary to believe in God to be able to love deeply and faithfully. But our love is affected by our beliefs. For a materialist it is not as significant as if you believe we are created for love because a man and a woman are not seen as destined for each other. It is terminated by death, serves no ultimate purpose and is not our raison d’etre. How can it be if we have no raison d’etre! This is a very depressing view for those who cannot bear the thought of being separated forever.
The love of those who believe in God is far more consoling and positive. Their faith and hope inspire them to share their happiness and gratitude. Instead of causing frustration and disappointment their love brings them peace and a sense of fulfilment because it unites them to the Source of love and gives them a foretaste of heaven…
The love of those who believe in God is far more consoling and positive. Their faith and hope inspire them to share their happiness and gratitude. Instead of causing frustration and disappointment their love brings them peace and a sense of fulfilment because it unites them to the Source of love and gives them a foretaste of heaven…
C
Charlemagne_II
Guest
Rainbow
*Why would you love an atheist, but not trust an atheist, on what your love is based in this case, isn’t each person different, I hope you are not generalizing that all atheists cannot be trusted. *
I would love an atheist because he is another human being that Christ also loves.
I would not trust him as much as I would trust a Christian. For one thing, the atheist holds himself (his morals) accountable to no one but himself.
I know a theist holds his morals accountable not only to God, but also to me through God.
If he swears on a stack of bibles, I think he is good for his promise.
What does an atheist swear on? His word only. Take it or leave it. I’ll leave it.
*Why would you love an atheist, but not trust an atheist, on what your love is based in this case, isn’t each person different, I hope you are not generalizing that all atheists cannot be trusted. *
I would love an atheist because he is another human being that Christ also loves.
I would not trust him as much as I would trust a Christian. For one thing, the atheist holds himself (his morals) accountable to no one but himself.
I know a theist holds his morals accountable not only to God, but also to me through God.
If he swears on a stack of bibles, I think he is good for his promise.
What does an atheist swear on? His word only. Take it or leave it. I’ll leave it.
A
Abba
Guest
Hello RainbowNight,
When I say pure and absolute love, I mean love itself. Love is a being, it is a tri-une being we call the Trinity. The Trinity was revealed to us by God himself - human beings could not come to recognize it on their own. The answer to your question as I understand it is, no.Selfless love is not pure and absolute love. It is only, I would say, an aspect. Language, I have to say, verbalizing all this is difficult because language cannot really express it. I am struggling here. Consider, that God said: I am who I am. I studied linguistics for a year and God never come into the discussions but, when I started dedicating myself to learning about my faith; I could appreciate even more God’s response to Moses who asked him who should I say sent me. God responded: tell them that I am, sent you. You see, God is God and we are part of his creation, he created us out of love. God can not be really described by reference to created things, linguistically speaking his answer is perfect. To say, that it is difficult to take something from creation to describe the uncreated. It’s like the sunlight, (I’ll give this analogy a shot anyway), the sunlight hits the ocean top and makes it look like it is covered with diamonds or filters through the leaves of an oak tree or comes through my window and lands on my carpet. Can I say this is the sun? It’s a weak analogy…
Is God selfless love? No. If you mean if that is all that there is to it. It is an aspect of love but it does not describe it fully. When you experience absolute, pure and perfect love you cannot even identify what it is at first - it is out of this world. This love which is God, is powerful beyond human comprehension, imagen taking a tiny drop out of an infinite ocean and imagine that being the capacity of a human being to experience God in the human body.
What we finite being come to see, know, and experience of Love is limited. A man and a woman for instance could share a beautiful love and within the context of their love could have the best they can have because it is fortified and made beautiful by virtues and God. If you have knowledge of what you have and it’s origin - the greater you will understand what you are experiencing and the more you will appreciate it. If you understand love and the union and commitment of a man and a woman with and through the love of God, it is better and more beautiful than the same love with ignorance.
We cannot, for instance, compare a man with a dog, Human beings were created in the image of God, and human dignity is respected by God himself - the creator of the universe. A dog can be altruistic and a human can be altruistic but the value is not the same. Animals function in the main by instinct and do not have free will and rationality and were not made in the image of God.
We can even see a difference in altruism within human beings. A person could risk his life to save his son whom he loves, but, would he risk his life to save a stranger? If someone,selflessly risks his life for a stranger of two who he can see and touch etc…, would he do it for the general good of humanity like Socrates and Doctor Martin Luther King Junior did? Our Lord Jesus, being divine suffered and died for us to open the way to salvation. Jesus and Socrates are not comparable, nor is Socrates with the other altruists mentioned neither are those comparable to animals.
Well, I hope what I have written helps and does not confuse you,
Peace,
Abba
Animals can do it too.
When I say pure and absolute love, I mean love itself. Love is a being, it is a tri-une being we call the Trinity. The Trinity was revealed to us by God himself - human beings could not come to recognize it on their own. The answer to your question as I understand it is, no.Selfless love is not pure and absolute love. It is only, I would say, an aspect. Language, I have to say, verbalizing all this is difficult because language cannot really express it. I am struggling here. Consider, that God said: I am who I am. I studied linguistics for a year and God never come into the discussions but, when I started dedicating myself to learning about my faith; I could appreciate even more God’s response to Moses who asked him who should I say sent me. God responded: tell them that I am, sent you. You see, God is God and we are part of his creation, he created us out of love. God can not be really described by reference to created things, linguistically speaking his answer is perfect. To say, that it is difficult to take something from creation to describe the uncreated. It’s like the sunlight, (I’ll give this analogy a shot anyway), the sunlight hits the ocean top and makes it look like it is covered with diamonds or filters through the leaves of an oak tree or comes through my window and lands on my carpet. Can I say this is the sun? It’s a weak analogy…
Is God selfless love? No. If you mean if that is all that there is to it. It is an aspect of love but it does not describe it fully. When you experience absolute, pure and perfect love you cannot even identify what it is at first - it is out of this world. This love which is God, is powerful beyond human comprehension, imagen taking a tiny drop out of an infinite ocean and imagine that being the capacity of a human being to experience God in the human body.
What we finite being come to see, know, and experience of Love is limited. A man and a woman for instance could share a beautiful love and within the context of their love could have the best they can have because it is fortified and made beautiful by virtues and God. If you have knowledge of what you have and it’s origin - the greater you will understand what you are experiencing and the more you will appreciate it. If you understand love and the union and commitment of a man and a woman with and through the love of God, it is better and more beautiful than the same love with ignorance.
We cannot, for instance, compare a man with a dog, Human beings were created in the image of God, and human dignity is respected by God himself - the creator of the universe. A dog can be altruistic and a human can be altruistic but the value is not the same. Animals function in the main by instinct and do not have free will and rationality and were not made in the image of God.
We can even see a difference in altruism within human beings. A person could risk his life to save his son whom he loves, but, would he risk his life to save a stranger? If someone,selflessly risks his life for a stranger of two who he can see and touch etc…, would he do it for the general good of humanity like Socrates and Doctor Martin Luther King Junior did? Our Lord Jesus, being divine suffered and died for us to open the way to salvation. Jesus and Socrates are not comparable, nor is Socrates with the other altruists mentioned neither are those comparable to animals.
Well, I hope what I have written helps and does not confuse you,
Peace,
Abba
R
RainbowNight
Guest
So your love for an atheist is being conditioned by the idea of that Christ love them, while my idea for loving Christians or others is not based on such a condition.
You don’t trust an atheist who avoid doing bad because it doesn’t fit with his morality and because of his fear of sense of guilt after doing what he knows is wrong, while you trust a christian who can do many faults as he can and then repent, where his sense of guilt immediately disappear by the idea of an ultimate forgiving God?
Not everyone swear, once again, a god is all forgiving, so there’s nothing to avoid a theist doing bad to others and then repent, while a true moral atheist and a true moral christian try to avoid doing ‘bad’ at the fist place.If he swears on a stack of bibles, I think he is good for his promise.
What does an atheist swear on? His word only. Take it or leave it. I’ll leave it.
- Status