Income equality: abolish pensions based on having been a government employee

[SyroMalankara]

Those abuses are good points. However, who is going to move 500 chairs from inventory or storage, load the truck, unload the truck, and arrange it on stage according to the stage director. After the show, restock etc… the violinist?

The NYSymphony and Philharmonic-Symphony Society of New York Inc are private entities. If they agree to pay a guy or a company $200k to cut their grass with scissors –

Seems like the “Rubber Rooms” problem is more a NYS DoE problem, not a Union problem.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reassignment_centers

The Department of Education blamed union rules that made it difficult to fire teachers. Some teachers assert that they have been sent to reassignment centers because they are whistleblowers against administrators for falsifying student test results or publicly challenging former Schools Chancellor Joel Klein.[1][5] Three Department of Education employees speaking to the UFT’s “New York Teacher,” confirmed teachers’ allegations that Fordham High School for the Arts principal Iris Blige filed allegations against the school’s UFT chapter leader, to place her in a reassignment center, in order to intimidate her and to set an example to the school’s staff.[6]

Reassignment centers arose as a budgetary concern in bureaucratic studies and press coverage in Spring 2008,[7] and cost the city more than $65 million per year in labor expenses.[1] In April, 2010, the city and teachers’ union reached an agreement to end the practice.[1] This agreement came in the midst of the first public presentation of a documentary on the centers.[8]

Since the rubber room agreement, the only substantive change has been that there are no longer large rooms filled with reassigned teachers. Teachers are typically reassigned within their own schools, or to other Department of Education buildings throughout the city. Although teachers are now being charged more quickly, it still takes several years to complete the hearing process and for the arbitrator to render a decision. Many teachers are subsequently brought up on “3020-a” charges, which refer to the section of the New York State education law dealing with the discipline of tenured teachers. Unlike any other school district in New York State, no independent panel must vote to prefer charges against a tenured teacher in New York City. The 3020-a trial is held before an independent arbitrator, who is paid by the New York State Education Department but is selected jointly by the New York City Department of Education and the United Federation of Teachers.

In June 2012 it was revealed that the New York State Education Department had not paid its arbitrators for several years, and collectively owed them millions of dollars for cases they had completed, or were in the process of hearing. In frustration, ten of the 24 arbitrators on the New York City panel have quit, while the remaining 14 refuse to hear any testimony or issue any decisions until their back wages have been paid in full. This could take several more years to negotiate, further exacerbating the backlog of reassigned teachers.

 

[ricmat]

Those abuses are good points. However, who is going to move 500 chairs from inventory or storage, load the truck, unload the truck, and arrange it on stage according to the stage director. After the show, restock etc… the violinist?

Yes, the musicians could do it in a pinch. That’s what happens in less prominent orchestras. And if you fired the union guys, took half their pay and gave it to the musicians to do it, then it would be a win for both the musicians, and the customers of the Symphony (lower prices.) You have a customer with lower prices, and more income for the people doing what the customer wants to see/hear.

The NYSymphony and Philharmonic-Symphony Society of New York Inc are private entities. If they agree to pay a guy or a company $200k to cut their grass with scissors –

Is it allowed that they fire the union guys, and hire someone cheaper?

Seems like the “Rubber Rooms” problem is more a NYS DoE problem, not a Union problem.

This would be solved quickly if a teacher’s union was not involved at all, or even if they agreed to do something so “radical” as allowing incompetent or dangerous teachers to be fired.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Yes, the musicians could do it in a pinch. That’s what happens in less prominent orchestras. And if you fired the union guys, took half their pay and gave it to the musicians to do it, then it would be a win for both the musicians, and the customers of the Symphony (lower prices.) You have a customer with lower prices, and more income for the people doing what the customer wants to see/hear.

thats part of the reason musicians aspire to join a world class Symphony, so they don’t have to spend hours on stage
labor. Heck, how would you explain to a million dollar donor that the worlds greatest violinist is unable to perform due to a broken finger, moving 500 chairs across the stage.

Is it allowed that they fire the union guys, and hire someone cheaper?

sure, next time the union contract comes up, tell em ‘no thanks’, see how far it gets you.

This would be solved quickly if a teacher’s union was not involved at all, or even if they agreed to do something so “radical” as allowing incompetent or dangerous teachers to be fired.

Did you read the article? Some of these places were used as retaliation by higher management, now you are suggesting they be allowed to fire at-will an otherwise decent employee, out of retaliation, and even remove the right to appeal?

 

[ricmat]

thats part of the reason musicians aspire to join a world class Symphony, so they don’t have to spend hours on stage
labor. Heck, how would you explain to a million dollar donor that the worlds greatest violinist is unable to perform due to a broken finger, moving 500 chairs across the stage.

So there’s no one in NYC willing to move chairs for less than $200K? REALLY? Hire them for lower cost.

sure, next time the union contract comes up, tell em ‘no thanks’, see how far it gets you.

That sounds a lot like extortion. That’s usually illegal, but in the case of unions, I guess it’s OK

 

[ricmat]

Did you read the article? Some of these places were used as retaliation by higher management, now you are suggesting they be allowed to fire at-will an otherwise decent employee, out of retaliation, and even remove the right to appeal?

Fire-at-will is a fact of life. It happens. But not for an “otherwise decent employee.” Right to appeal - so far as I know this is a right that cannot be taken away from anyone. Perhaps if you sign a contract that says “I get my pay and benefits even if there’s no money available” then the same contract might include the words “may be fired at will.” Just guessing.

Wikipedia is notoriously unreliable in terms of a balanced presentation of facts (just look at anything there involving Catholicism, or left/right political stuff). The article I read initially wasn’t that article (I don’t remember where I read it).

But let’s say there’s some management retaliation in addition to others. Management retaliation happens. There are some in that category. And let’s say that there are some there because of incompetence or danger to students.

1. Do you think that the dangerous or incompetent teachers should be fired, instead of being rewarded with a free lunch for the rest of their lives?
2. It surprises me that those (in reality very few) that are there because of “retaliation” don’t just find another job. It’s probably better for them if they aren’t at odds with their company or manager. Don’t they feel guilty about getting paid and not working?

Or do they feel that have a lifetime guarantee of income, whether that involves working or not?

Another thing to note is that employees cite “retaliation” for almost anything that doesn’t conform to their worldview. Most rational people look at their facts and basically see “whining” instead of “retaliation.” But “retaliation” of course invokes much more sympathy so it’s the right word to use.

 

[ricmat]

This just in - Suddenly, a Shifting Pension Paradigm?

Some excerpts:

Bottom line: A court finally agreed that oversized pensions for public-sector workers could be cut going forward, just as is allowed in the private sector.
…
It was great news, given the so-called “California Rule” has left cities with no choice but to slash public services and raise taxes to pay pension benefits that typically are reserved for multimillionaires. (That’s no exaggeration. One would need millions of dollars in the bank to have a guaranteed six-figure, cost-of-living-adjusted salary for life.)
…
There’s a reason cities open arenas to handle applicants for a handful of firefighting openings. Consider this new statistic from one Orange County suburb. The average compensation for a Costa Mesa firefighter: $241,000 a year. It’s typical and includes a guaranteed pension of 90 percent or more of their final pay beginning at age 50.

This article is about California, but might be of interest to others.

 

[SyroMalankara]

So what are you suggesting? Taking away the pension promised to 80 year old retired fireman, or euthanizing them at 65, or hiring 30x the employees to prop up the system to be feasible?

Other than complaining about a problem, what’s your solution?

BTW, your fantasy about guaranteed raises - doesn’t happen either, I know gov’t folks who haven’t had a raise in 5 years.

 

[ricmat]

So what are you suggesting? Taking away the pension promised to 80 year old retired fireman, or euthanizing them at 65, or hiring 30x the employees to prop up the system to be feasible?

Other than complaining about a problem, what’s your solution?

BTW, your fantasy about guaranteed raises - doesn’t happen either, I know gov’t folks who haven’t had a raise in 5 years.

Euthanizing folks is a left wing thing. I’m not for it.

And if you think that government/union employees could only be replaced by 30 other people - what are you smoking?

Wow - 5 years. Most private sector jobs haven’t had a raise in the last 5 years. Generally, private sector salaries have gone down. And they’ve never even heard of COLA. (For you private sector guys reading this, COLA stands for “cost of living adjustment.”)

OK - here are some suggestions:

1. Anyone new coming on the payroll is told up front - no guaranteed pension. You can have IRA’s and 401Ks like others have, and you have to put money from your salary in there to fund them, just like everybody else. This would need to go hand in hand with some training on basic finance since the previous culture would have inculcated a mindset of “just raise taxes on everybody else” and the idea of being thrifty on their own would be a real novelty.

We’ll do the best we can to provide a pension to those who signed on earlier, but we will not bankrupt the city, state, or federal government to do it.

1. Salary to be based on “market factors”. In other words, if you want e.g. $100,000 to do a job, and we can find somebody else who is qualified that will do it for less, we are allowed to hire that person instead of you. Even if you’re in a union. (If the unions can’t really justify why they cost more than someone else, why do they exist?)
2. Raises, promotions, etc. are based on your own personal performance compared with others. No automatic raises, just because you’re there. No automatic promotions, just because you’ve been there longer than someone else.
3. When/If the money runs out - as in a private business, something drastic has to happen. No more printing more money. No more saddling our children and grandchildren with debt. No automatic tax increases. It means that you must do more with less. And in some cases that means that some people need to be fired, and perhaps some need to be laid off. Of course this is unfortunate, but if everyone is really working hard, it’s less likely to happen.
4. No bailouts.
5. If there is no need for your “company” / department / agency / etc. then you “go out of business”, join the private sector workforce, and present your credentials on your resume at job fairs, like everybody else. As one example (not to stir up another controversy), it seems to me that the Department of Education (federal) has no real purpose since all the state and local governments already have one of those. How many do we need?)

I’d go on except my fingers are getting tired…

 

[SyroMalankara]

I think you’d see a plummet on teachers, firefighters, police, emts, and many public sector on call jobs. To a detriment. No one wants to risk their lives to be fired for it.

 

[BobCatholic]

A good example is MDs in the DOD, a cardiologist in private sector makes $500k easily, DOD $180k+30k housing.

A cardiologist also pays out of pocket for malpractice insurance, an office, staff, and other expenses. That $500K can easily evaporate and become a loss. So after paying expenses and surviving lawsuits, their pay is very variable, and many times below $180K + 30k.

DOD the salary and housing are guaranteed, and protected from lawsuits.

Yeah, can’t compare the two.

 

[stinkcat_14]

A cardiologist also pays out of pocket for malpractice insurance, an office, staff, and other expenses. That $500K can easily evaporate and become a loss. So after paying expenses and surviving lawsuits, their pay is very variable, and many times below $180K + 30k.

DOD the salary and housing are guaranteed, and protected from lawsuits.

Yeah, can’t compare the two.

Can you cite some evidence that the $500k is gross rather than net?

 

[sallybutler]

The unions that have been cited sound like they have better negotiators than the businesses do. They are definitely better at negotiating for pay and benefits than I am.

Should I be envious or jealous of them? That seems to violate a commandment or two. Should I try to take away their benefits? Again, another commandment violation.

Perhaps a better solution would be to try to get one of those low status/high paying jobs. Or start one’s own business with no employees other than one’s self.

 

[BobCatholic]

Can you cite some evidence that the $500k is gross rather than net?

I cite the 500K figure the poster posted. Ask the author where he got the 500K figure and if it is gross or net.

I know doctors run their own offices. They have to pay rent, malpractice insurance, administrative assistants, accountants, utilities, supplies, etc. Then on the revenue side, they are dealing with low Medicare reimbursements, 9 month (here in IL) and more wait to get paid their Medicaid payments, and private insurance companies who negotiated very low rates that are barely above Medicare. High costs. Low reimbursements. Guess what? They’re not going to be making $500K net. I think that figure, if even accurate, is gross.

If they’re working for a hospital, they still have to cover their own personal malpractice insurance and have their own office expenses. That’s why you get bills from both the hospital and every individual doctor that dealt with you. They tend to be contractors with the hospital. Sue the hospital? He’s a contractor, not our employee, so they get off the hook, but the doctor does not.

For some doctors malpractice insurance runs $200K a year (OB-GYN) - Cardiologists deal with heart problems, which have a high risk of people dying, so malpractice insurance premiums are probably just as big.

One lawsuit and the doctor could easily be put out of business, even if they have malpractice insurance. Deductibles, copays, exclusions, and things not covered can easily hurt a doctor’s income.

Sure, there are doctors who are making big money net after paying their expenses. Those numbers are getting smaller as they get enough to retire and leave the profession.

 

[ricmat]

The unions that have been cited sound like they have better negotiators than the businesses do. They are definitely better at negotiating for pay and benefits than I am.

Your pay and benefits should be related to your skills and value to the employer. There is no connection to those things when unions get involved. If you take more than you’re really worth because somebody else negotiated it for you, isn’t that sort of like stealing from the company? Or stealing from your negotiator (since he has all the talent?)

In those situations where a company is actually allowed NOT to use union labor, then I agree. Negotiate to your heart’s content. If the company doesn’t want to pay the union premium, and can find other workers who will do it for less, OK, go for it. If they end up using the union labor, then if the unions over-demand, and the company over-gives-in, and the company goes out of business because the labor costs are too high…well, they both agreed to the deal, and everybody involved pays the consequences. Everybody is out of a job. There’s at least some incentive not to be greedy on both sides.

But when you’re talking about a government union, that’s a different situation. The taxpayers are FORCED to use union labor. We have no choice. As an analogy, it’s as if you go to buy a house. There are 2 absolutely identical new houses side by side, house A costs $250K and house B costs $500K. You tell the realtor, I’ll take house A. The realtor says, sorry, that’s against the law. You MUST choose house B, the union built house. “Take it or leave it.” This sort of scenario plays out at the state level. Those states with the $500K union built houses are losing jobs to the states with the $250K non union built houses (as an illustrative example).

Should I be envious or jealous of them? That seems to violate a commandment or two. Should I try to take away their benefits? Again, another commandment violation.

In the private sector, when unions get greedy, or their members get lazy, the company they work for goes out of business, along with their pay and benefits. Nobody is taking their benefits away. They got envious, jealous, and greedy as well. Justice is served in the end - they did not have it taken away, they did it to themselves, although it’s unfortunate that it affects everybody in the company and not just the union members.

Since the government can’t “go out of business” there is no incentive for government employees to restrain their greed. All the taxpayers pay for the greed. And it never stops growing.

Perhaps a better solution would be to try to get one of those low status/high paying jobs. Or start one’s own business with no employees other than one’s self.

As mentioned in one of my previous posts, apparently there are arenas full of people showing up to interview for e.g. government union fireman jobs that pay $230K. During my career, I hired a lot of people and saw a lot of resumes. I don’t recall ever getting a resume from a government (union) employee, or my companies ever hiring a former government worker (except perhaps in the “influence peddling” department.)

Would you start a business where you HAD to use a union, even if the company had no chance of success due to the labor costs being too high? I’d bet that most wouldn’t. And when people stop creating new companies, where do the new jobs come from?

Many unions are in a “monopoly” situation. You have no choice but to use them. That’s the main problem as I see it. You can’t exist as a business in the world economy if your costs are higher than the rest of the world.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

For some doctors malpractice insurance runs $200K a year (OB-GYN) - Cardiologists deal with heart problems, which have a high risk of people dying, so malpractice insurance premiums are probably just as big…

Not according to this report. It says the average malpractice insurance was $19,400 in 2011. So I think the cardiologist who gets a salary of $500,000 gross still ends up keeping a good chunk of that money.

 

[JimG]

This whole thread sounds like the politics of envy. If someone has better pay or benefits than me, take it away from them!

 

[BobCatholic]

Not according to this report. It says the average malpractice insurance was $19,400 in 2011. So I think the cardiologist who gets a salary of $500,000 gross still ends up keeping a good chunk of that money.

You’re looking at one variable in the equation. Have you finished calculating the other cost variables, and the revenue variables I mentioned?

I’m questioning the 500K gross figure. Medicare, Medicaid and private insurance are not as generous as you think.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

You’re looking at one variable in the equation. Have you finished calculating the other cost variables, and the revenue variables I mentioned?

I’m questioning the 500K gross figure. Medicare, Medicaid and private insurance are not as generous as you think.

The lack of revenue (if any) has already affected their salary. You don’t “deduct” lack of generosity of Medicare from a gross salary. If Medicare is not generous enough, then your gross salary would have to be lowered. It is not a deduction from the gross, but a reason for the gross to be what it is to start with. The only big expense that is not figured in is malpractice insurance, which is paid out of the gross. It won’t be easy to prove that government employees net more than cardiologists.

 

[ricmat]

This whole thread sounds like the politics of envy. If someone has better pay or benefits than me, take it away from them!

Envy can be a very powerful thing. It got you-know-who who elected for the last 8 years, and has basically been the keystone of one of the party platforms.

But that having been said, with regard to someone having more than me (or you, or whoever) ----

If someone has more than me, and they got it by working harder, smarter, longer, than me and got it honestly, then I share their joy. God apparently gave them these talents, and they used them well. (Of course, there are obligations which follow regarding proper use of the honestly earned wealth).

On the other hand, if the wealth was gained by being in a union, then there is no connection between working “harder”, “smarter”, “longer”, etc. That person is paid more because (in most cases) the union has some kind of force behind it which disallows the employer to hire anyone outside the union. Accept whatever the union demands because they’ll put you out of business if you don’t. At this point (in my view), this becomes a case not of “honestly earned wealth” but rather case of extortion. So no, I do not share in the joy of those who revel in this ill gotten wealth.

IMHO.

 

[BobCatholic]

It won’t be easy to prove that government employees net more than cardiologists.

Government has salary stability and protection from lawsuits. Private sector doesn’t.

One lawsuit, that malpractice insurance didn’t cover at 100%, game over, bankruptcy court for the doctor. $5 million judgment on a $1 million max payout insurance policy, well, who needs a home anyway, right? This happens very frequently. Oh, and you gotta pay for those lawyers too on top of that.