Infant vs. Believer's Baptism

[believers]

Why did Jesus tell the apostles to do it then?

Because it was a baptism UNTO REPENTANCE.

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:

 

[believers]

believers, you are showing an amazing ignorance of either Scripture or Catholic Doctrine with your opening statement.

What person is trying to tell you that Water Baptism negates or overrides the Sacrifice on Calvary? It is through Water Baptism that brings us into the Covenant that Jesus brought into the world on Calvary.

It’s not through water baptism. It is Faith in Jesus and repentance that brings you into this new covenant. There’s no other way.

 

[jmcrae]

Because it was a baptism UNTO REPENTANCE.

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:

That was John’s baptism, which was the Old Covenant equivalent of our Sacrament of Reconciliation. It was accompanied by the confession of one’s sins.

Christian Baptism replaces circumcision and is the first entry into the New Covenant - it does not replace John’s baptism.

Even today, though, adult baptism is accompanied by repentance from sins.

Infants have nothing to repent of - they have not committed any personal sin, despite having been born into sin through Original Sin.

Both infants and adults are washed of Original Sin and become members of Christ’s Church at the time of Christian baptism. Adults are also washed clean of any personal sins that they have committed during their lives.

After baptism, when people sin, they go to Confession, and they are absolved of their sins in the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

 

[Hellisreal]

What Jmcrae said.

 

[Zooey]

Thank you Zooey, and please forgive me for making it seem in my post as if I only thought Catholics feel about ONE baptism. I know you probably didn’t think that, but please accept my apologies for overlooking the non-Catholics who understand that baptism is more than just a public declaration.

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

Maria, I knew what you meant!! I just wanted to be sure to remind people that this isn’t a Catholics vs Protestants thing…God bless you & yours!!!

It’s like this… you are either on God’s plan of salvation or you’re not. There is no in between.

Yes. We know. That’s why we’re all trying very, very hard to make it clear that we are NOT supposed to [metaphorically at least] slap the Lord in the face, by suggesting that He didn’t know what He was doing when He said, “Let the children come unto me, and forbid them not; for of such is the kingdom of Heaven”.

 

[Zooey]

believers, you are showing an amazing ignorance of either Scripture or Catholic Doctrine with your opening statement.

What person is trying to tell you that Water Baptism negates or overrides the Sacrifice on Calvary? It is through Water Baptism that brings us into the Covenant that Jesus brought into the world on Calvary.

Ignorance of Scripture, for sure…Believers is ignoring the plain teaching of the Bible.
I leave the determination in re Catholic Doctrine to the Catholics here…

 

[lak611]

Yes. We know. That’s why we’re all trying very, very hard to make it clear that we are NOT supposed to [metaphorically at least] slap the Lord in the face, by suggesting that He didn’t know what He was doing when He said, “Let the children come unto me, and forbid them not; for of such is the kingdom of Heaven”.

He would not have said that if it were not true. Infant baptism IS Biblical.

 

[NotWorthy]

It’s not through water baptism. It is Faith in Jesus and repentance that brings you into this new covenant. There’s no other way.

Faith and Repentence is all? Wow, somebody should have told Peter at Pentecost.

Therefore let the whole house of Israel know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Messiah, this Jesus whom you crucified." Now when they heard this, they were cut to the hear t

So the Jews are ashamed and embarassed. They wish to know how they can be saved. When the Jews asked Peter

"What are we to do, my brothers?" Peter (said) to them, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit.

 

[believers]

Faith and Repentence is all? Wow, somebody should have told Peter at Pentecost.
So the Jews are ashamed and embarassed. They wish to know how they can be saved. When the Jews asked Peter

That’s right… “REPENT and be baptized!”

Notice Peter did not say “have your babies water baptized!”. Peter was talking to adults. The baptism Peter is referring to is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit which occurs when you believe on Jesus and REPENT.

 

[mercygate]

That’s right… “REPENT and be baptized!”

Notice Peter did not say “have your babies water baptized!”. Peter was talking to adults. The baptism Peter is referring to is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit which occurs when you believe on Jesus and REPENT.

Nor does any passage of Scripture say that ONLY consenting adults are eligible for entrance into the new covenant. Of course adult baptism requires repentance first. But Peter, in the very next verse says: “the promise is to you and to your children.”

As a sign of the new covenant, replacing circumcision, baptism is not only related to adults but to families under the spiritual headship of fathers and mothers over children entrusted to their care.

 

[believers]

Nor does any passage of Scripture say that ONLY consenting adults are eligible for entrance into the new covenant. Of course adult baptism requires repentance first. But Peter, in the very next verse says: “the promise is to you and to your children.”

As a sign of the new covenant, replacing circumcision, baptism is not only related to adults but to families under the spiritual headship of fathers and mothers over children entrusted to their care.

Babies and little children go to Heaven. Jesus said let them come to Him, “such is the Kingdom of Heaven”.

Mat 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

Mar 10:14 But when Jesus saw [it], he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

Luk 18:16 But Jesus called them [unto him], and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

The old 8 day physical circumcision of the Jews was replaced with a spiritual circumcision of the heart. Water baptism NEVER replaced circumcision. It was a Baptism UNTO REPENTANCE. Apparently, you believe water baptism freed you from sin. I recommend that you repent of that notion asap. It’s important that you do. You cannot enter into the new covenant unless you have faith in Jesus. If you believe that water baptism means your freed from sin, you will have a very serious problem when you appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ.

Rom 2:29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.

Rom 3:30 Seeing [it is] one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

1Cr 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

 

[NotWorthy]

believers, something to ponder while you’re up their on the mount:

Ezekiel 36:

(a) I will sprinkle clean water upon you to (b) cleanse you from all your impurities, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. I will give you a new heart and (c) place a new spirit within you, taking from your bodies your stony hearts and giving you natural hearts. (c) I will put my spirit within you and make you live by my statutes, careful to observe my decrees.

Notice Ezekiel points out the reason for sprinkling the water “to cleanse you from all your impurities”

Now, compare this to Peter. Just to help remove the scales from your eyes, I’m indexing the similarities.

Acts 2:

"Repent and (a) be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ (b) for the forgiveness of your sins; and (c) you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit.

Are you a believer yet? See where Peter hammers the point down in his Epistle:

eight in all, were saved through water. This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ

 

[Hellisreal]

Babies and little children go to Heaven. Jesus said let them come to Him, “such is the Kingdom of Heaven”.

Mat 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

Mar 10:14 But when Jesus saw [it], he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

Luk 18:16 But Jesus called them [unto him], and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

The old 8 day physical circumcision of the Jews was replaced with a spiritual circumcision of the heart. Water baptism NEVER replaced circumcision. It was a Baptism UNTO REPENTANCE. Apparently, you believe water baptism freed you from sin. I recommend that you repent of that notion asap. It’s important that you do. You cannot enter into the new covenant unless you have faith in Jesus. If you believe that water baptism means your freed from sin, you will have a very serious problem when you appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ.

Rom 2:29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.

Rom 3:30 Seeing [it is] one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

1Cr 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Stupid question?

If a child or infant, has no need for baptism, then why do they ever need it?

 

[MariaG]

Stupid question?

If a child or infant, has no need for baptism, then why do they ever need it?

Eventually the will grow up and “need” it. Until they “need” it, they are under the “age of reason” and have a free ticket to heaven.

Part of the problem of not understanding the need for infant baptism, is an incomplete or nonexistent understanding of original sin.

 

[biblebeliver]

For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 1st Corinthians 1:17
Acts8:
008:036 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
008:037 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
008:038 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

 

[NotWorthy]

For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 1st Corinthians 1:17
Acts8:
008:036 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
008:037 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
008:038 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

Context, bb, Context. Read 1 Cor. 1:12-16 and you’ll see why St. Paul makes this statement.

Quick pop-quiz:

What was Christ’s last commandment to the 11 Apostles in Matthew?

2nd Pop Quiz, since we’re on the subject of the Eunuch? Why did the Eunuch realize that the water was necessary for Baptism, “See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized” He’d only been studying Isaiah, according to Acts. But someone related the link between baptism and water.

 

[mercygate]

Babies and little children go to Heaven. Jesus said let them come to Him, “such is the Kingdom of Heaven”.

Mat 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

Mar 10:14 But when Jesus saw [it], he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

Luk 18:16 But Jesus called them [unto him], and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

The old 8 day physical circumcision of the Jews was replaced with a spiritual circumcision of the heart. Water baptism NEVER replaced circumcision. It was a Baptism UNTO REPENTANCE. Apparently, you believe water baptism freed you from sin. I recommend that you repent of that notion asap. It’s important that you do. You cannot enter into the new covenant unless you have faith in Jesus. If you believe that water baptism means your freed from sin, you will have a very serious problem when you appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ.

Rom 2:29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.

Rom 3:30 Seeing [it is] one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

1Cr 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

I may have lost track of this thread, but the comparison between circumcision and baptism is made in Colossians: 2:11-13

In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ; and you were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses . . .

I sense in your position the idea that baptism must be either symbolic OR effective. We believe it is both.

We also cite the very same scriptures about the children to affirm infant baptism. Why is your interpretation “better” than ours?

One further question. And this really is a QUESTION, I’m not being snarky here. How is it that for 1600 years no Christian body ever challenged the idea of infant baptism? Suddenly, around 1600, the “truth” explodes on the Christian world and everything that has gone before has been in error? Was the Holy Spirit on vacation all that time?

 

[believers]

I may have lost track of this thread, but the comparison between circumcision and baptism is made in Colossians: 2:11-13

In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ; and you were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses . . .

I sense in your position the idea that baptism must be either symbolic OR effective. We believe it is both.

We also cite the very same scriptures about the children to affirm infant baptism. Why is your interpretation “better” than ours?

One further question. And this really is a QUESTION, I’m not being snarky here. How is it that for 1600 years no Christian body ever challenged the idea of infant baptism? Suddenly, around 1600, the “truth” explodes on the Christian world and everything that has gone before has been in error? Was the Holy Spirit on vacation all that time?

How exactly do you know this? Is it because your religion records such things? Unless you were there, you don’t know for sure. The Bible says let God be true, and every man a liar.

By the way, it wasn’t until this year that babies and infants go to Heaven. Why did it take so long for the RCC church to figure this one out?

 

[NotWorthy]

How exactly do you know this? Is it because your religion records such things? Unless you were there, you don’t know for sure. The Bible says let God be true, and every man a liar.

Well, maybe the fact that archaeological discoveries within the past 100 years prove that was the teaching of the early Church.

By the way, it wasn’t until this year that babies and infants go to Heaven. Why did it take so long for the RCC church to figure this one out?

You’ll hae to be a little more precise on this. Would you care to explain this?

 

[mercygate]

How exactly do you know this? Is it because your religion records such things? Unless you were there, you don’t know for sure. The Bible says let God be true, and every man a liar.

You are saying that you do not have an answer. There is documentation from a church council in the year 250 a.d. arguing that baptism, like circumcision, may be administered BEFORE the 8th day.

So, how is it that nobody thought up “believers-only” baptism before the late 16th/early 17th Century? Surely you can provide the history without referring to The Trail of Blood.

By the way, it wasn’t until this year that babies and infants go to Heaven. Why did it take so long for the RCC church to figure this one out?

'nother subject. Tangential. Limbo of the infants was a philosophical speculation, not official teaching of the Church. And the speculation arises from the scriptural warrant that baptism is essential to salvation. OFF TOPIC.