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Petrus1
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But maybe not here…unfortunately
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MagdalenaRita
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Yes. That is true
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Servant_of_Gregory
Guest
Uhh … are we sure that the Church says that we worship the same God as islam does because that does not seem right at all to me? The classic example of this is that Israel means struggling with God and islam means submission to allah. Also I’m pretty sure that the quran says that allah hates the non-believer but God doesn’t hate any individual person, surely?
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TheLittleLady
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Yes, we are sure. Catechism:
841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims . "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."
841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims . "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."
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Petrus1
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Is this part also present in the Roman Catechism?
I ask this for I did a quick google search and couldn’t find what the Catechism of Trent says about this issue.
I ask this for I did a quick google search and couldn’t find what the Catechism of Trent says about this issue.
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CRV
Guest
Whilst not the Council of Trent, Jimmy Akin back in 2002 wrote this article The Catechism on Islam, wherein he mentions CCC, Vat II, Lumen Gentium, Nostra Aetate, and Dominus Jesus. I thought it was a good read and explained various matters.
Then there is this article Do Muslims Worship the Same God Catholics Do? by Tim Staples from 2014.
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Finn
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You might find this article interesting:
Do Catholics and Muslims Worship the Same God?
It certainly seems as if we worship the same God. After all, we call God by the same name. Arabic-speaking Christians, including Eastern Catholics such as Maronites and Melkites, use the word “Allah”…
www.crisismagazine.com
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TheLittleLady
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As the Catechism on the Vatican Website is the most current, I use it.
EDIT to add:
Good article. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13120c.htm
On books, I’d also suggest Kreeft’s Between Allah and Jesus: What Christians Can Learn from Muslims
As the Council of Trent was focused on the Protestant Reformation, it is not surprising that they did not address other topics. Councils meet to address specific issues.
EDIT to add:
Good article. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13120c.htm
On books, I’d also suggest Kreeft’s Between Allah and Jesus: What Christians Can Learn from Muslims
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MagdalenaRita
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The Catechism of Trent is an excellent catechism.
As far as articles on Muslims, this is a very good article.
Do Catholics and Muslims Worship the Same God?
It certainly seems as if we worship the same God. After all, we call God by the same name. Arabic-speaking Christians, including Eastern Catholics such as Maronites and Melkites, use the word “Allah”…
www.crisismagazine.com
My understanding of CCC 841 is that it is a quote from Lumen Gentium and there is one line that is in lumen gentium that is not in CCC 841 and that is “as Saviour wills that all men be saved”.
The Church still holds that there is no salvation outside the Catholic church and there is definitely no salvation in Islam. The plan of salvation does include Muslims because the plan of salvation includes everyone. Christ died for everyone but not everyone will be saved.
There is a possibility that some one who is Islam can be saved (not will be saved) and not because of being Muslim but by the grace of God, somehow, something from the Catholic church, from Christ. Also, it would be the same as anyone else outside the Catholic church, through no fault of their own because they do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church . In today’s era with so much knowledge, no fault of their own is difficult to claim
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Crusader13
New member
Unfortunately, some of the language in documents such as Lumen Gentium and Nostra Aetate isn’t as forceful or precise in its description of Salvation and the relatedness of non-Catholic religions. I personally think the ambiguity in some of these modern documents is done on purpose.
When you read these documents and then hear certain clergy talking about privileged vs non privileged routes of salvation and how God wills all of these multiple religions, it can lead one to the misguided belief that all faiths are equal and nobody needs to convert or even acknowledge Jesus as being necessary for salvation, because everyone can be saved just by being good non-Catholics.
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translaticius
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You are a Christian because you follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. Does that offend you? Muslims follow the teachings of a man whom they think is a prophet. His name was Mohammed. I think Mohammedans is a much more accurate term than Muslims.
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angel12
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So, you be fine with another religion what to call us, and never mind what we prefer.
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translaticius
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I couldn’t care less what people call me. Would you like to provide a logically sound argument to refute my point? Someone accused the author of being offensive and I was defending him.
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Petrus1
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It’s an amazing article, and just in the end I realised that Robert Spencer wrote it, the same author of The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades), book that I’m currently reading and loving. He does explain in a way I was able to fully understand what’s being said in those documents.
Well, we yet have some forgotten tribes here and there, and lost villages heavily controlled by fearful religious leaders, so this “no fault of their own” claim continues to diminish as the years goes by.
That’s what I constantly read and hear, and often realise.
The language used in today’s documents ain’t that precise, causing confusion on the faithful and making easier for translators to “adapt” the text to their own will.
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MagdalenaRita
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Much of the wording in the documents of Vatican II and the Catechism regarding those outside the Catholic church, were said in such a way as to be ecumenical and less offensive to those who are not Catholic.
Problem is this has caused much confusion as to salvation.
Crusader13
New member
It’s not an issue of translation, but rather it’s a fraternal way of emphasizing what we have in common vs differences and errors of other faiths. In reality there is little we have in common but it sounds nice when we acknowledge their desire to worship the same God of Abraham.
We may be looking in the same direction, but that’s not to say that they are on the correct path or that they possess the truth and understanding to get you to the intended destination, which is ultimately heaven.
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Petrus1
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Wow!
Who said I’m accusing this or that version of the Catechism?
I said today’s documents, not today’s Catechism.
Don’t accuse me of making such accusation.
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PetraG
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Heaven forbid a traditionalist ever confuse the opinions of Amazon readers with the truth. It is a measure of popularity with consumers, not a measure of veracity.
Again: the accuracy of what someone writes has zero to do with what a great spouse or parent the writer is and almost zero correlation with what academic acolades he or she has garnered.
I’m not going to fault an author for doing aggressive marketing. Books on philosophy and theology need a push if they’re going to make the summer reading lists. (I don’t even know what it takes to sell a book on alleged intrigues in the internal politics of the Roman Catholic Church.)
My take on the book is that the politics of the Catholic Church is a long ways above my pay grade. I don’t know what anybody can do whether it is true or not, except intercessory prayer aimed at the Holy Spirit. That’s where Our Lord said the protection of the Church would come from.
If it is true, I suppose there are worse things to read. I’m sure there are more useful things to read, but I couldn’t say no one should read it or have any curiosity about it. It is not as if the heirarchy would benefit from the idea that no one is watching them. (Human beings do better when they know the light will shine on what they do…)
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MagdalenaRita
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Fr. Hileman gives a very good review of the book in this interview while they also discuss the current issues in the Church.
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Petrus1
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I would like to add something else to my defense.
I’m a translator/interpreter, went to the university and all of that, so I know how a text can be altered, shaped, or even adapted according to the translator’s and/or editor’s own will.
I’ll give you an example:
On May 22nd during the General Assembly of the Episcopal Conference of Italy, President Cardinal Gualtiero Bassetti announced the approval of a third edition of the Messale Romano. The revised translation will include changes to the Lord’s Prayer and Gloria.
The Lord’s Prayer will change from “and lead us not into temptation” to “do not let us fall into temptation.”
The Gloria will change from “Peace on earth to people of good will” to “Peace on Earth to people beloved by God.”
The changes to the Italian Missal was a 16 year undertaking with aims to “contribute to the renewal of the ecclesial community in the wake of the liturgical reform.”
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