Hi Michael,John 3:3-5 Jesus answered, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above…I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit.”
Baptism is our entrance into the New, universal covenant in Christ and His Catholic Church.
John 6:53 Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life and I will raise him on the last day.
How did you come to the knowledge that,“In order to receive the flesh and blood of the Son, you need the Catholic Church and her priests”?In order to receive the flesh and blood of the Son, you need the Catholic Church and her priests.
Luke 10:16 Speaking to the anointed leaders of the Church, Jesus said, “Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.”
How did you come to know that the CC is Christ’s Church?If you reject the leaders of Christ’s Church, you can’t truly and fully claim to accept Christ. And all salvation is through Christ alone.
Did Jesus give the keys only to Peter? Again, how did you come to know all of this?Matthew 16:19 I will give you [Peter] the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatsoever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Hi Paul,Now consider your local, non-denominational church. They would like to say that they too are covered by the same great commission. But truly, how can it be true? Do they teach the same truths that the Catholic Church teaches? Do they administer the sacraments with valid holy orders? Are they not in fact, usurpers, trying to peddle their own ideas and biblical interpretations as the truth? Sure, they are well meaning, but the fact is, in every instance where they deviate from the Catholic Church, they are teaching error. You may not accept this now, but it is the truth. Can you still go to heaven if you follow error? Perhaps, if the error is not too great. But the more fundamental problem when you separate yourself from the Catholic Church is that you also separate yourself from the sacraments, which are sources of God’s grace. In John’s Gospel, Jesus makes it clear that you can not have eternal life if you aren’t baptized (John 3: you must be born of water and spirit) and if you don’t partake of the eucharist (John 6, to gain eternal life, you must eat my body and drink my blood).
I came to know all of these things through a combination of prayerfully studying the Scriptures and the history of the Church (the Church Fathers, et al) - our family history, so to speak - and by talking with knowledgeable and holy men with varying views.Hi Michael,
How did you come to know that, “Baptism is our entrance into the New, universal covenant in Christ and His Catholic Church”?..
Hi Michael,I came to know all of these things through a combination of prayerfully studying the Scriptures and the history of the Church (the Church Fathers, et al) - our family history, so to speak - and by talking with knowledgeable and holy men with varying views.
As Cardinal John Henry Newman - a convert from the Anglican Church - once wrote: “to be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant.”
I found that to be true, and so I became Catholic.
May you receive abundant grace on your own journey and may it lead you to the fullness of the faith.
And I pray the same great blessings to you!God bless.
maybe you could make the same argument against Israel for claiming to be the chosen people of God.Hi Paul,
There are some critical problems with placing all of the focus on the CC for salvation:
A) It is unbiblical.
**B) It takes our focus AWAY FROM JESUS.
C) It assumes that we can have infallible knowledge via our own fallible individual reason. (without relying on our own individual reasoning, how do we know which “church” is the infallible one, or THAT some infallible church authority exists on earth now?)**
D) It leads to an infinite regress “chain” in the pathway to salvation. If Jesus isn’t the One way, then where does the chain end? How do we know it ever ends? In effect, you’re saying that, the only way to the Father is Jesus, the only way to Jesus is through the CC, and the only way to the CC is_____? And the only way to the ____, is the ____, and so on, in what might be an infinite chain. That is some very scary stuff! Does Scripture impose all of this on us?
Mick,Hi Paul,
There are some critical problems with placing all of the focus on the CC for salvation:
A) It is unbiblical.
B) It takes our focus AWAY FROM JESUS.
C) It assumes that we can have infallible knowledge via our own fallible individual reason. (without relying on our own individual reasoning, how do we know which “church” is the infallible one, or THAT some infallible church authority exists on earth now?)
D) It leads to an infinite regress “chain” in the pathway to salvation. If Jesus isn’t the One way, then where does the chain end? How do we know it ever ends? In effect, you’re saying that, the only way to the Father is Jesus, the only way to Jesus is through the CC, and the only way to the CC is_____? And the only way to the ____, is the ____, and so on, in what might be an infinite chain. That is some very scary stuff! Does Scripture impose all of this on us?
Hi wisdomseeker,maybe you could make the same argument against Israel for claiming to be the chosen people of God.
Well you can not deny the fact that the Sacred Scriptures does speaks of the Church. now, the question is which Church is the Bible speaking of? is it the One started by the Apostles or is it the ones started not to long ago when some men got the Bible and begin to build their own churches based on what they think the Bible is saying?
I asked you a few question and you did not answer it. instead you come up with questions.Hi wisdomseeker,
Where in the bible is there any hint of a papacy? Where in the bible do we find the teachings about indulgences and purgatory? If you want to go to a church that only teaches the bible, how can you choose the CC?
Hi Paul,Mick,
you basically ignored everything I said to yo in my previous post and just restated your position as if I said nothing.
You continue to consider the Catholc Church in opposition to Belief in Christ with your opening remark and your first two points. This supposition is false. Let’s spend a few seconds reviewing the New testament contents:
If you notice, all of the New Testament other than the four gospels is actually about how the church spread the Gospels. So Biblically, it is clear that the Church was responsible for spreading the Gospel. How can you deny that?
- The 4 gospels describe Jesus’ life and teachings
- Acts describes the actions of the early church in spreading those gospels
- The epistles are writings from the early church leaders to their flocks to explain the gospel
- Revelations is the prophesies for the church
Reason is good as long as we use it for the glory of God. If we use our God-given reason to oppose Him, we are no better than beasts who have no ability to reason at all. The point I was trying to make is that some Catholics accuse Protestants of using their own private reasoning to arrive at their beliefs. But how are Catholics any different? It seems to me that Catholics have discerned by their own private reasoning that the CC is the correct one.Your point C is confusing. Are you trying to say that reason is good or bad? Reason is never opposed to the truth. If Catholicism teaches truth, which we believe, then you can understand it through reason.
And what is His prescribed way to find the Catholic church?Point D is based on your original false point. Jesus is the one. and the Catholic church is his prescribed way to find him.
True.Well you can not deny the fact that the Sacred Scriptures does speaks of the Church.
It was the one Jesus founded through the apostles.now, the question is which Church is the Bible speaking of? is it the One started by the Apostles or is it the ones started not to long ago when some men got the Bible and begin to build their own churches based on what they think the Bible is saying?
good. now, that we know that the CC is the One True Church, why dont you believe what she teaches?True.
It was the one Jesus founded through the apostles.
Its really not hard to prove that the Catholic Church has continuity of leadership and doctrine back to the Apostles by studying the Early church fathers. The easiest way to do this quckly is to read Eusebius’ History of the Church written in 310AD. It is available on Amazon for less than $10 and can be read on line for free here: newadvent.org/fathers/2501.htmQuote:Originally Posted by paul c
Mick,
you basically ignored everything I said to yo in my previous post and just restated your position as if I said nothing.
Yes, Catholics use their own private reasoning to deduce that the Catholic Church is the correct one. The Catholic Church is never in opposition to reason and does not require blind faith. What Catholics tell protestant’s is not that they shouldn’t use reason but that their own private interpretations are based on faulty information. You see, the Catholic church wrote and compiled the New Testament under divine inspiration and knows exactly how it should be interpreted. When you interpret it differently, you are in error. The Church does not, however, require you to blindly accept what they say. It will in fact explain it to you in detail. If you take the time to truly understand why the church teaches what it teaches, you will find the answers are extremely well thought out and have considered many things you have not. This is what you get when you teach divinely inspired truths for 2000 years.Quote:Originally Posted by paul c Your point C is confusing. Are you trying to say that reason is good or bad? Reason is never opposed to the truth. If Catholicism teaches truth, which we believe, then you can understand it through reason.
You aren’t having any trouble finding the Catholic Church, now are you? After all, you found your way to this site. In any case, the Catholic Church is not hard to find.Quote:Originally Posted by paul c Point D is based on your original false point. Jesus is the one. and the Catholic church is his prescribed way to find him.
If you want to find a parish anywhere in the world, use this site: masstimes.org/dotNet/default.aspx
If you want to find what it teaches, use this catechism: scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
or the catholic encyclopedia: newadvent.org/cathen/
If you want to find out about in on TV, what EWTN
There really is no excuse for anyone with internet access not to find the Catholic Church.
Hi wisdomseeker,good. now, that we know that the CC is the One True Church, why dont you believe what she teaches?
Hi Paul,Its really not hard to prove that the Catholic Church has continuity of leadership and doctrine back to the Apostles by studying the Early church fathers. The easiest way to do this quckly is to read Eusebius’ History of the Church written in 310AD. It is available on Amazon for less than $10 and can be read on line for free here: newadvent.org/fathers/2501.htm
Now that you’ve admitted that you’ve used your own imperfect (fallible) reasoning to get to THE TRUTH, perhaps you can tell me how it is possible to obtain infallible knowledge via some completely fallible means. How can you use your imperfect judgment to get perfect judgment? Isn’t it all futile nonsense?Yes, Catholics use their own private reasoning to deduce that the Catholic Church is the correct one. The Catholic Church is never in opposition to reason and does not require blind faith. What Catholics tell protestant’s is not that they shouldn’t use reason but that their own private interpretations are based on faulty information. You see, the Catholic church wrote and compiled the New Testament under divine inspiration and knows exactly how it should be interpreted. When you interpret it differently, you are in error. The Church does not, however, require you to blindly accept what they say. It will in fact explain it to you in detail. If you take the time to truly understand why the church teaches what it teaches, you will find the answers are extremely well thought out and have considered many things you have not. This is what you get when you teach divinely inspired truths for 2000 years.
You aren’t having any trouble finding the Catholic Church, now are you? After all, you found your way to this site. In any case, the Catholic Church is not hard to find.
If you want to find a parish anywhere in the world, use this site: masstimes.org/dotNet/default.aspx
If you want to find what it teaches, use this catechism: scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
or the catholic encyclopedia: newadvent.org/cathen/
If you want to find out about in on TV, what EWTN
You must have misunderstood what I said. I’m not saying that any CC is necessarily hard to find, I’m saying that (by following your own logic) there is ONE correct WAY to obtain the knowledge that the Catholic church is the correct one.There really is no excuse for anyone with internet access not to find the Catholic Church.
There are not infinite links, nor are they missing. There are in fact 266 popes covering the entire 2000+ years of the church. They can be found here and you can read about every one of them by clicking on their names: newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htmQuote:Originally Posted by paul c
Its really not hard to prove that the Catholic Church has continuity of leadership and doctrine back to the Apostles by studying the Early church fathers. The easiest way to do this quckly is to read Eusebius’ History of the Church written in 310AD. It is available on Amazon for less than $10 and can be read on line for free here: newadvent.org/fathers/2501.htm
And here is an article on apostolic succession: newadvent.org/cathen/01641a.htm
Actually, you are making a strong argument for the Catholic Faith. Whereas, individuals such as yourself try to come to the truth on your own, We Catholics come to the truth through the Church, which was commissioned by Jesus to teach us. We are in communion with all that have preceeded us.Quote:Originally Posted by paul c Yes, Catholics use their own private reasoning to deduce that the Catholic Church is the correct one. The Catholic Church is never in opposition to reason and does not require blind faith. What Catholics tell protestant’s is not that they shouldn’t use reason but that their own private interpretations are based on faulty information. You see, the Catholic church wrote and compiled the New Testament under divine inspiration and knows exactly how it should be interpreted. When you interpret it differently, you are in error. The Church does not, however, require you to blindly accept what they say. It will in fact explain it to you in detail. If you take the time to truly understand why the church teaches what it teaches, you will find the answers are extremely well thought out and have considered many things you have not. This is what you get when you teach divinely inspired truths for 2000 years.
I’m not saying this at all, am I? I am giving you multiple paths to explore to find that the Catholic church is the correct one. They will triangulate at the correct answer if you follow multiple paths because they all lead to the truth. The Holy Spirit works in different ways with Different people.Quote:Originally Posted by paul c You aren’t having any trouble finding the Catholic Church, now are you? After all, you found your way to this site. In any case, the Catholic Church is not hard to find.
If you want to find a parish anywhere in the world, use this site: masstimes.org/dotNet/default.aspx
Then how many links are there in the total chain (of single ways leading to salvation) are there? And how did you come to this knowledge? Am I unreasonable for wanting to understand this?There are not infinite links, nor are they missing.
Are you now saying that the chain (of single ways leading to salvation) is the succession of Catholic popes? How did you come to know this?There are in fact 266 popes covering the entire 2000+ years of the church. They can be found here and you can read about every one of them by clicking on their names: newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm
And here is an article on apostolic succession: newadvent.org/cathen/01641a.htm
But how did you come to the knowledge that YOUR church is the one that was founded by Jesus through the apostles? Did God tell you, or did you use your own judgment to arrive at your conclusion?Actually, you are making a strong argument for the Catholic Faith. Whereas, individuals such as yourself try to come to the truth on your own, We Catholics come to the truth through the Church, which was commissioned by Jesus to teach us. We are in communion with all that have preceeded us.
Then using this same logic, why can’t God use multiple paths to guide His sheep to Jesus? Why would it have to be only through the Catholic church and how does the CC get around the infinite regress problem?I’m not saying this at all, am I? I am giving you multiple paths to explore to find that the Catholic church is the correct one. They will triangulate at the correct answer if you follow multiple paths because they all lead to the truth. The Holy Spirit works in different ways with Different people.
I don’t know that your chain analogy is very helpful in understanding salvation. If eternal life is what you desire, then you need to be baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and that Holy Spirit, which gives you new life, free of prior sin, entrance into the Catholic Church and sufficient grace to gain Eternal life. However, you need to stay in the state of Grace by doing God’s will and avoiding Mortal sin. If you do fall from Grace through sin, by God’s mercy you can be reconcile sacramentally. This is what the Catholic church has always taught.Quote:Originally Posted by paul c
There are not infinite links, nor are they missing.
No, the succession of Catholic Popes just demonstrates the continuity of Church leadership. No reputable scholar debates that this is true. There is one basic way to gain eternal life, which I described above. There are exceptions if you are truly ignorant of the Chruch’s teachings but still live a life of love or if you are physically denied baptism despite your desire to be baptized.Quote:Originally Posted by paul c There are in fact 266 popes covering the entire 2000+ years of the church. They can be found here and you can read about every one of them by clicking on their names: newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm
Perhaps the way to think about this is God leads those who are willing to the truth and the truth will set you free. It doesn’t take much investigation, by the way to understand that the Catholic Church has a continuity of doctrine and leadership that no other church can demonstrate (with the exception of the Orthodox, who split from us in 1054.)Quote:Originally Posted by paul c Actually, you are making a strong argument for the Catholic Faith. Whereas, individuals such as yourself try to come to the truth on your own, We Catholics come to the truth through the Church, which was commissioned by Jesus to teach us. We are in communion with all that have preceeded us.
God definitely uses multiple paths to guide his sheep to Jesus. But all of them evenutally end up at the Catholic Church. It always ends up there, because Jesus set up the Church for that purpose. Where you deviate from the Catholic Church, you deviate from the truth. Can you get to heaven without the whole truth? Perhaps, by God’s mercy. but the surest way is to follow the path that Jesus set out and that is through the Catholic Church.Quote:Originally Posted by paul c I’m not saying this at all, am I? I am giving you multiple paths to explore to find that the Catholic church is the correct one. They will triangulate at the correct answer if you follow multiple paths because they all lead to the truth. The Holy Spirit works in different ways with Different people.
Let me ask you two questions:
Do you think you do anything in serving God that a Catholic doesn’t also do?
Do you think that Catholics do anything extra that you don’t do and can you prove that anything we do extra is harmful to the soul?
I’ve asked this dozens of times on many different threads and no one has ever demonstrated one thing they do that Catholics don’t also do in serving God. On the other hand, they have identified many things that Catholics do that they don’t do, including most of the sacraments, and yet they have never been able to demonstrate that any of the extras could be in any way harmful to the soul. What does that tell you?
Hi Paul,I don’t know that your chain analogy is very helpful in understanding salvation.
You have skipped a critical step. You haven’t explained how you came to know that the Catholic church is the right one.If eternal life is what you desire, then you need to be baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and that Holy Spirit, which gives you new life, free of prior sin, entrance into the Catholic Church and sufficient grace to gain Eternal life. However, you need to stay in the state of Grace by doing God’s will and avoiding Mortal sin. If you do fall from Grace through sin, by God’s mercy you can be reconcile sacramentally. This is what the Catholic church has always taught.
The concept of a papacy is not biblical. The early church knew nothing of it.No, the succession of Catholic Popes just demonstrates the continuity of Church leadership. No reputable scholar debates that this is true. There is one basic way to gain eternal life, which I described above. There are exceptions if you are truly ignorant of the Chruch’s teachings but still live a life of love or if you are physically denied baptism despite your desire to be baptized.
Where in the bible do we find that God leads those who are willing to the truth and the truth will set you free? How does this fit with what Jesus said (I am the way)?Perhaps the way to think about this is God leads those who are willing to the truth and the truth will set you free. It doesn’t take much investigation, by the way to understand that the Catholic Church has a continuity of doctrine and leadership that no other church can demonstrate (with the exception of the Orthodox, who split from us in 1054.)
This is not what you (Catholics) were saying before. And it is a rejection of your church’s teaching that, there is no salvation outside of the CC.God definitely uses multiple paths to guide his sheep to Jesus.
Are you saying that the (now multiple paths) to salvation all end up in the Catholic church?But all of them evenutally end up at the Catholic Church. It always ends up there, because Jesus set up the Church for that purpose.
Well, either there are multiple ways to salvation or there aren’t. Jesus said, “I am the way.” What does your church say?Where you deviate from the Catholic Church, you deviate from the truth. Can you get to heaven without the whole truth? Perhaps, by God’s mercy. but the surest way is to follow the path that Jesus set out and that is through the Catholic Church.
Let me ask you two questions:
I think that trusting ONLY in Jesus for my salvation is the main thing that I’m “doing” that most Catholics will not “do”.Do you think you do anything in serving God that a Catholic doesn’t also do?
Do you remember the rich young ruler in Mark chapter 10? He wished to gain eternal life. But he also wished to hold on to his wealth. No man can serve two masters. God does indeed appear to be a jealous God. When it comes to the way of salvation, faith in Him means having NO FAITH in all other things. Jesus meant it when He said, “I am the way.”Do you think that Catholics do anything extra that you don’t do and can you prove that anything we do extra is harmful to the soul? I’ve asked this dozens of times on many different threads and no one has ever demonstrated one thing they do that Catholics don’t also do in serving God. On the other hand, they have identified many things that Catholics do that they don’t do, including most of the sacraments, and yet they have never been able to demonstrate that any of the extras could be in any way harmful to the soul. What does that tell you?
can you show me any other than the CC from the beginning datitng all the way back to the Apostles? can you go back in history and show me the Church found by Christ that tought different from what the CC teaches today?Hi wisdomseeker,
It seems that you’ve skipped a very critical step. How did you come to know that the church founded by Jesus through the apostles is the Catholic church?