Infinite Regress: the one pathway to salvation

[Mick_Taylor]

I, and numerous others, have already done this. The Catholic position is that there is no salvation outside of the Church.

No, the Catholic church’s position is that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic church. That means that only Catholics can be saved…

But like I mentioned before, the Church isn’t just the collection of the saved, a you erroneously hold.

So you think that the “bride of Christ” consists of both saved and unsaved, the sheep AND the goats! In what sense do you say the goats are married (united) to Christ?

So we don’t hold it’s simply sufficient to be in the Church to be saved.

And I’ve never tried to characterize your belief in such a way.

Numerous people have explained this to you in various ways. You’re just being bizarre, imputing bad faith here. We’ve laid out a solid case, and you’ve done nothing to disprove it. Remember, your original claim is that our view is logically impossible, given John 14:6. Even if you still think we’re wrong, I don’t think you can sat with a straight face that our position is logically impossible.

No, I’m not saying that your inconsistency is necessarily a logical inconsistency. I’m saying that it is inconsistent with Scripture. Jesus said, “I am the way.” But the Catholic church tells us, “We (the Catholic church) are the way.” I showed you how one passage (John 10:1-10) would read if God had intended to teach your error of “no salvation outside the CC.”

Again, with the assuming bad faith. For shame!

What, in your opinion, am I to make of your attempts–involving serious distortions of what both sides are saying here, just so you can glorify men and a particular religion instead of glorifying God? What should I think based on these things?

First, learn to treat others with charity if you’re going to carry the title of Christian.

You will not find me treating others in an unkind or unfair manner. But please keep in mind that if you resort to distorting what has been said, I might need to set the record straight. And I will do so with charity, but also with firmness and conviction.

Second, you claimed that all the saved are members of the Bride of Christ earlier. Do you now recant this?

No. The bride of Christ consists only of saved people.

Again, you seem to be confusing membership in the Churh as a condition of salvation v. it being the CAUSE of salvation.

It is the Catholic view that reverses the cause of salvation and its effects. It is ME that has consistently rejected your belief that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic church. No one needs to be in the Catholic church to obtain the free gift of salvation. Again, if you can prove that I’m wrong, then by all means, go ahead and prove it!

 

[paul_c]

Quote:Originally Posted by Belloc Fan
I, and numerous others, have already done this. The Catholic position is that there is no salvation outside of the Church.

No, that is not the Catholic position. You might be able to be saved without becoming an Actual confirmed Catholic, but it will be by doing what the Catholic Church teaches and it will be made more difficult than if you were a catholic because you will not have the graces available through the sacraments.

Quote:Originally Posted by Belloc Fan
But like I mentioned before, the Church isn’t just the collection of the saved, a you erroneously hold.

Just being a member of the church does not guarantee you entry to heaven. You must act out your faith and you must strive for holiness. Entry to the Church through Baptism is the starting point of your new life in Christ but you can turn away from him subsequently and not go to heaven. You must persevere in the faith.

QUOTE:Originally Posted by Belloc Fan
So we don’t hold it’s simply sufficient to be in the Church to be saved

You just did in the last quotation, didn’t you?

QUOTE:Originally Posted by Belloc Fan :
Numerous people have explained this to you in various ways. You’re just being bizarre, imputing bad faith here. We’ve laid out a solid case, and you’ve done nothing to disprove it. Remember, your original claim is that our view is logically impossible, given John 14:6. Even if you still think we’re wrong, I don’t think you can sat with a straight face that our position is logically impossible.

.
Lets go with that. John 10: 1-12 describes Jesus as the Good Shepard. When Jesus had died and was resurrected and was about to return to heaven, he said this to Peter in John 21: 15-17:
When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.” He then said to him a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.” He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, “Do you love me?” and he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” (Jesus) said to him, "Feed my sheep
So Jesus, the good shepard, told Peter three times to feed/tend his sheep. Do you not understand that he was turning over the Sheep on earth to Peter? How could he have made it clearer?

QUOTE:Originally Posted by Belloc Fan Second, you claimed that all the saved are members of the Bride of Christ earlier. Do you now recant this?

This is an interpretation only taken by those outside the Catholic church. This is because they recognize that they have to be part of the church to go to heaven, but since they deny the one true church, they must revert to the invention of an invisible church that frankly does not exist.

QUOTE:Originally Posted by Belloc Fan
Again, you seem to be confusing membership in the Churh as a condition of salvation v. it being the CAUSE of salvation.

Its as simple as this. There is one and only one truth about salvation. That truth has been taught by the Catholic Church since the original pentecost. Even you, who deny the fullness of truth taught by the Catholic chruch, still rely on the Bible, a Catholic teaching tool, for any understanding you have of Christ’s teachings. So anyone who comes to Christ, does so directly or indirectly through the Catholic Church. That does NOT mean that being a Catholic guarantees you heaven. It most certainly does not. Just as Faith in Christ does not guarantee you heaven. You must act out that Faith through acts of love and charity and avoid sin to gain heaven.

---

 

[Mick_Taylor]

No, that is not the Catholic position. You might be able to be saved without becoming an Actual confirmed Catholic, but it will be by doing what the Catholic Church teaches and it will be made more difficult than if you were a catholic because you will not have the graces available through the sacraments.

Hi Paul,

The Catholic church in ages past, strongly disagrees with you. It has been CC teaching (see below) that being a Catholic is a necessary condition (but not a sufficient condition) for one’s salvation.

Pope Boniface VIII, Bull Unam sanctam (1302): "We are compelled in virtue of our faith to believe and maintain that there is only one holy Catholic Church, and that one is apostolic. This we firmly believe and profess without qualification. Outside this Church there is no salvation and no remission of sins, the Spouse in the Canticle proclaiming: ‘One is my dove, my perfect one. One is she of her mother, the chosen of her that bore her’ (Canticle of Canticles 6:8); which represents the one mystical body whose head is Christ, of Christ indeed, as God. And in this, ‘one Lord, one faith, one baptism’ (Ephesians 4:5). Certainly Noah had one ark at the time of the flood, prefiguring one Church which perfect to one cubit having one ruler and guide, namely Noah, outside of which we read all living things were destroyed… We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."

Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino (1441): “The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the “eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.”

Pope Boniface I, Epistle 14.1: “It is clear that this Roman Church is to all churches throughout the world as the head is to the members, and that whoever separates himself from it becomes an exile from the Christian religion, since he ceases to belong to its fellowship.”

Pope Pelagius II (578-590): “Consider the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have the Lord… Although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or, thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be (for them) that crown of faith but the punishment of faithlessness… Such a one can be slain, he cannot be crowned… [If] slain outside the Church, he cannot attain the rewards of the Church” (Denzinger, 469).

Saint Gregory the Great (590-604), Moralia: “Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved.”

Pope Sylvester II, Profession of Faith, June AD 991: “I believe that in Baptism all sins are forgiven, that one which was committed originally as much as those which are voluntarily committed, and I profess that outside the Catholic Church no one is saved.”

Pope Innocent III (1198-1216), Profession of Faith prescribed for the Waldensians: “With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved” (Denzinger 792).

Pope Clement VI, Letter Super Quibusdam (to Consolator the Catholicos of Armenia), September 20, 1351: “In the second place, we ask whether you and the Armenians obedient to you believe that no man of the wayfarers outside of the faith of this Church, and outside the obedience of the Pope of Rome, can finally be saved… In the ninth place, if you have believed and do believe that all who have raised themselves against the faith of the Roman Church and have died in final impenitence have been damned and have descended to the eternal punishments of hell.”

 

[Mick_Taylor]

Just being a member of the church does not guarantee you entry to heaven. You must act out your faith and you must strive for holiness. Entry to the Church through Baptism is the starting point of your new life in Christ but you can turn away from him subsequently and not go to heaven. You must persevere in the faith.

I have never said that the CC has taught that just being a member of the CC is *sufficient *for salvation.

You just did in the last quotation, didn’t you?

No. I did not.

.

 

[Mick_Taylor]

You just did in the last quotation, didn’t you?

Here is that quote, from me:

So you think that the “bride of Christ” consists of both saved and unsaved, the sheep AND the goats! In what sense do you say the goats are married (united) to Christ?

Note that in this quote, I haven’t claimed that it was ever CC teaching that being a Catholic is sufficient for salvation.

 

[Mick_Taylor]

.
Lets go with that. John 10: 1-12 describes Jesus as the Good Shepard. When Jesus had died and was resurrected and was about to return to heaven, he said this to Peter in John 21: 15-17:

When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.” He then said to him a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.” He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, “Do you love me?” and he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” (Jesus) said to him, “Feed my sheep”.

So Jesus, the good shepard, told Peter three times to feed/tend his sheep. Do you not understand that he was turning over the Sheep on earth to Peter? How could he have made it clearer?

So you’re saying that the instruction to Peter, “feed my sheep” not only includes Peter, but it was meant to exclude the other apostles? If so, why do the other apostles proceed to do the same work that only Peter was given to do?

 

[Mick_Taylor]

This is an interpretation only taken by those outside the Catholic church. This is because they recognize that they have to be part of the church to go to heaven, but since they deny the one true church, they must revert to the invention of an invisible church that frankly does not exist.

Hi Paul,

You forgot to answer the question. If your position is correct, that the church here on earth consists of both the saved and the unsaved, in what sense are the unsaved (the goats) married to, or united to Christ?

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
.
Lets go with that. John 10: 1-12 describes Jesus as the Good Shepard. When Jesus had died and was resurrected and was about to return to heaven, he said this to Peter in John 21: 15-17:

Peter was left in charge of the whole flock. The other apostles were left with subsegments of the flock. James, for instance, was left in charge of the Church in Jerusalem. This is just as it is today. There is one Pope who has overall authority for the church and Cardinals and bishops, who have authority over Papal administrations or territories. So within their jurisdiction, they have many, but not all the responsibilities of the Pope. In fact, each member of the hierarchy has his own role

• The pope can name bishops, set doctrine and canonize saints plus everything the lower orders can do:
• Cardinals can elect future popes plus everything the lower orders can do
• Bishops can ordain priests and confirm people into the church plus everything the lower orders can do
• Priests can say mass (and consecrate the eucharist) , hear confessions, bless others, and annoint the sick plus everything the lower order can do.
• Deacons can preach, baptize, and officiate at weddings.

 

[paul_c]

Hi Paul,

You forgot to answer the question. If your position is correct, that the church here on earth consists of both the saved and the unsaved, in what sense are the unsaved (the goats) married to, or united to Christ?

They are united to Christ by virtue of their baptism, at which point they are saved. If a Catholic falls from Grace through sin, he or she can be reconciled to God through the sacrament of reconciliation at any point up until death if they so choose. Through God’s mercy, no one is condemned to hell until they die outside the state of grace so Christ continues to be available to them until that very instance. That is why they are united to Christ during their entire lives after baptism…

 

[paul_c]

Hi Paul,

The Catholic church in ages past, strongly disagrees with you. It has been CC teaching (see below) that being a Catholic is a necessary condition (but not a sufficient condition) for one’s salvation.

Pope Boniface VIII, Bull Unam sanctam (1302): "We are compelled in virtue of our faith to believe and maintain that there is only one holy Catholic Church, and that one is apostolic. This we firmly believe and profess without qualification. Outside this Church there is no salvation and no remission of sins, the Spouse in the Canticle proclaiming: ‘One is my dove, my perfect one. One is she of her mother, the chosen of her that bore her’ (Canticle of Canticles 6:8); which represents the one mystical body whose head is Christ, of Christ indeed, as God. And in this, ‘one Lord, one faith, one baptism’ (Ephesians 4:5). Certainly Noah had one ark at the time of the flood, prefiguring one Church which perfect to one cubit having one ruler and guide, namely Noah, outside of which we read all living things were destroyed… We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."

Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino (1441): “The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the “eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.”

Pope Boniface I, Epistle 14.1: “It is clear that this Roman Church is to all churches throughout the world as the head is to the members, and that whoever separates himself from it becomes an exile from the Christian religion, since he ceases to belong to its fellowship.”

Pope Pelagius II (578-590): “Consider the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have the Lord… Although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or, thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be (for them) that crown of faith but the punishment of faithlessness… Such a one can be slain, he cannot be crowned… [If] slain outside the Church, he cannot attain the rewards of the Church” (Denzinger, 469).

Saint Gregory the Great (590-604), Moralia: “Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved.”

Pope Sylvester II, Profession of Faith, June AD 991: “I believe that in Baptism all sins are forgiven, that one which was committed originally as much as those which are voluntarily committed, and I profess that outside the Catholic Church no one is saved.”

Pope Innocent III (1198-1216), Profession of Faith prescribed for the Waldensians: “With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved” (Denzinger 792).

Pope Clement VI, Letter Super Quibusdam (to Consolator the Catholicos of Armenia), September 20, 1351: “In the second place, we ask whether you and the Armenians obedient to you believe that no man of the wayfarers outside of the faith of this Church, and outside the obedience of the Pope of Rome, can finally be saved… In the ninth place, if you have believed and do believe that all who have raised themselves against the faith of the Roman Church and have died in final impenitence have been damned and have descended to the eternal punishments of hell.”

Well, the situation has changed since the Protestant reformation, which occurred after all of these quotes.

See the next post:

 

[paul_c]

Here is what the Catholic Catechism has to say about it scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm

817 In fact, “in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame.” The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.

818 “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”

819 “Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth” are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.” Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”

Who belongs to the Catholic Church?

836 “All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation.”

837 “Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body’ not ‘in heart.’”

838 “The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.” Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.” With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound “that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist.”

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

848 “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”

 

[Mick_Taylor]

Peter was left in charge of the whole flock.

Hi Paul,

How did you come to know this?

 

[Mick_Taylor]

I asked:

If your position is correct, that the church here on earth consists of both the saved and the unsaved, in what sense are the unsaved (the goats) married to, or united to Christ?

They are united to Christ by virtue of their baptism, at which point they are saved. If a Catholic falls from Grace through sin, he or she can be reconciled to God through the sacrament of reconciliation at any point up until death if they so choose. Through God’s mercy, no one is condemned to hell until they die outside the state of grace so Christ continues to be available to them until that very instance. That is why they are united to Christ during their entire lives after baptism…

I disagree. Perhaps you can clear up my lack of understanding on this point. How is a “saved” water-baptized sinner that ends up in hell for eternity any better off than a never water-baptized sinner burning in hell for eternity? And what exactly was the “saved” water-baptized sinner that ends up in hell for eternity, saved from? If water, or water baptism, is a means of grace unto salvation, does God give some people useless grace?

 

[Mick_Taylor]

Well, the situation has changed since the Protestant reformation, which occurred after all of these quotes.

So are you saying that the CC teaching on “no salvation outside of the Catholic church” has been changed? If so, why did they decide to change it?

 

[brb2]

Vatican 2 addresses your question. From GUIDE TO THE DOCUMENTS OF VAT. 2
Decree on Ecumenism [Unitatis Redintegratio]

The decree does not just speak about individuals, it afirms the value of other Christian churches and communities as such. There are elements of what it takes to constitute a ‘church’ that exist outside of the Catholic church: Scripture, baptism, the life of grace, faith, hope, charity, the gifts of the Spirit, even certain church institutions. Other communities many lack some of the structures that Catholics see as essential to being a church (such as the apostolic succestion of bishops or a valid Eucharist), but God nonetheless works through these communities to bring their members to salvation. Non-Catholic Christians are brought to salvation not ‘despite’ their churches, but ‘because’ of them.

All of this, does not abandon the Catholic belief that only the Catholic church contains “the fullness of the means of salvation”. But no longer is ecumenism envisioned as a process in which the Catholic church simply waits for non-Catholics to ‘return’ to it. Instead, ecumenism becomes a task or ‘restoring’ unity, a unity that all churches – including the Catholic church — have to work toward.

All Catholics are to participate, in some way, in the ecumenical movement. This movement proceeds in a series of steps: 1. avoiding negative stereotypes or false assumptions about other Christians 2. dialogue between experts from different churches 3. joint projects or initiatives that serve the needy 4. common prayer when appropriate and 5. self-reform and renewal. Participation in ecumenism demands that the Catholic church get its own household in order. Genuine reform and renewal is necessary to move forward toward the Christian unity.

Mick Taylor … you missed this, from Vat. 2

Please understand this is what the Church believes / teaches. Not all Protestants [and Catholics] … read / comprehend so well.

As you must understand by now, INDIVIDUALS can read scripture and come away with a variety of ideas / meanings. The Vatican 2 decree … helps us understand what is encompassed by ----- statements from the past & present] re: “There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.”

Let us at long last learn to reason, re-unite, & break bread together. Just as David [with great pains] mananged to obtain for the schismatic tribes of Israel. Read about this in the OT.

 

[paul_c]

I asked:
I disagree. Perhaps you can clear up my lack of understanding on this point. How is a “saved” water-baptized sinner that ends up in hell for eternity any better off than a never water-baptized sinner burning in hell for eternity? And what exactly was the “saved” water-baptized sinner that ends up in hell for eternity, saved from? If water, or water baptism, is a means of grace unto salvation, does God give some people useless grace?

Its all in how you understand the word " saved". you equate saved with gaining eternal life, a once and for all event. We Catholics do not see it that way. You are " saved" when your sins are forgiven, first in baptism and later in the sacrament of reconciliation. However, just because you are Saved, doesn’t mean you will gain eternal life. Each time you are saved, you are called to follow in the footsteps of Jesus. If you are doing that at the end of your life, you will gain eternal life. BUT, if you fall from the way of life through sin and don’t reconcile yourself to God, you will be condemned to Hell. You see, your whole life is a journey either to or away from God and every experience you have, positive and negative, creates a decision point (or a test) for you to decide which way you want to head.

Lets try a little story to put this in perspective. You are travelling form New York to California and you stop at a gas station. Unfortunately, at that very moment, an armed gunman enters the same gas station and holds you hostage. Fortunately for you, the local police are competent and save you from this situation and you are freed to continue your journey. You have been saved, but you have not reached your destination. This is the same thing that happens in life. You can be saved form sin, but you still have to continue your journey to the end and there is always the possibility that you will be captured by sin again and never get to your destination.

You get graces with every sacrament you partake in. But you need to cooperate with those graces to gain eternal life. Grace is never useless, but if a man is obstinate, it can come to no effect. If you are ultimately condemned to hell, baptized or not baptized, the effect is likely the same. However, you had at least had a chance of avoiding that condemnation if you had been baptized.

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
Peter was left in charge of the whole flock

It is Catholic Tradition Plus it says it in the Bible. I gave you the reverences. I assume you read them. Matthew 16, Luke 22, John 21

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
Well, the situation has changed since the Protestant reformation, which occurred after all of these quotes.

Mick, There still is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church. What has changed since the reformation is the relationship of people outside the Catholic Church to the church. Read this again:
Here is what the Catholic Catechism has to say about it scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm

817 In fact, “in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame.” The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.

818 “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”

819 “Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth” are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.” Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”

Who belongs to the Catholic Church?

836 “All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation.”

837 “Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body’ not ‘in heart.’”

838 “The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.” Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.” With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound “that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist.”

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

848 “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”

 

[Mick_Taylor]

Its all in how you understand the word " saved". you equate saved with gaining eternal life, a once and for all event. We Catholics do not see it that way. You are " saved" when your sins are forgiven, first in baptism and later in the sacrament of reconciliation. However, just because you are Saved, doesn’t mean you will gain eternal life. Each time you are saved, you are called to follow in the footsteps of Jesus. If you are doing that at the end of your life, you will gain eternal life. BUT, if you fall from the way of life through sin and don’t reconcile yourself to God, you will be condemned to Hell. You see, your whole life is a journey either to or away from God and every experience you have, positive and negative, creates a decision point (or a test) for you to decide which way you want to head.

Lets try a little story to put this in perspective. You are travelling form New York to California and you stop at a gas station. Unfortunately, at that very moment, an armed gunman enters the same gas station and holds you hostage. Fortunately for you, the local police are competent and save you from this situation and you are freed to continue your journey. You have been saved, but you have not reached your destination. This is the same thing that happens in life. You can be saved form sin, but you still have to continue your journey to the end and there is always the possibility that you will be captured by sin again and never get to your destination.

You get graces with every sacrament you partake in. But you need to cooperate with those graces to gain eternal life. Grace is never useless, but if a man is obstinate, it can come to no effect. If you are ultimately condemned to hell, baptized or not baptized, the effect is likely the same. However, you had at least had a chance of avoiding that condemnation if you had been baptized.

Hi Paul,

If being “saved” is only a temporary condition, what good is that? As I was asking, how is a water-baptized “saved” person who is burning in hell for eternity…any better off than a non-water-baptized sinner who is burning in hell for eternity? It all sounds like utter futility to me. What do I need CC sacraments for if I’m still just as likely to die in my sins (and go to hell) as anyone who hasn’t gotten the CC sacraments? I don’t understand the point. It all sounds like utter futility!

 

[davidv]

Hi Paul,

If being “saved” is only a temporary condition, what good is that?

Christ’s redemptive act opened the gates of heaven. It did not give us a free pass to enter.

As I was asking, how is a water-baptized “saved” person who is burning in hell for eternity…any better off than a non-water-baptized sinner who is burning in hell for eternity?

ISTM that neither is better off than the other.

It all sounds like utter futility to me. What do I need CC sacraments for if I’m still just as likely to die in my sins (and go to hell) as anyone who hasn’t gotten the CC sacraments? I don’t understand the point. It all sounds like utter futility!

It sounds like that to you because you don’t understand the Church’s teaching on the matter. It also appear that your have ignored or rejected all attempts to help you understand.