Infinite Regress: the one pathway to salvation

[Mick_Taylor]

Mick …

Have you attended a Mass yet ? Did you find it illuminating ? What were your impressions, c/w your church ?

Yes, in fact many times. My impression is that we can’t find the real Jesus or real salvation in physical ‘stuff’ such as the sacraments. We ought to worship Him in spirit and in truth. There is no religion or religious institution that can save your soul. As I’ve already pointed out, the CC sacraments are said to impart graces, but these graces are lost by mortal sin? Who can benefit from temporary forgiveness? How does that work? And what is there to get excited about in temporary gifts (graces) that fade into nothing in a very brief time?

I’ve examined my life of sin and my desperate need for my Savior. I need the SAVIOR Jesus of the bible who truly forgives sins and gives His sheep His own righteousness for free. With Jesus, I already have all that I need. I have no desire for worldly religious systems that impose their own legalistic spin on everything. The law has already condemned me very thoroughly. Why would I need further legalism? No, I need the loving and merciful Savior who will lose none of those that the Father has given to Him.

 

[brb2]

I’ve examined my life of sin and my desperate need for my Savior. I need the SAVIOR Jesus of the bible who truly forgives sins and gives His sheep His own righteousness for free. With Jesus, I already have all that I need. I have no desire for worldly religious systems that impose their own legalistic spin on everything. No, I need the loving and merciful Savior who will lose none of those that the Father has given to Him.

History doesn’t lie. Only the Catholic Church began & has lasted since day 1. If it worked fine for the Apostles … its right for you/me. Baptism, Eucharist, Confirmation, & Confession … instituted by Christ, preserved by the Church, available 24-7 to those with sins to leave at the Cross.

 

[paul_c]

Yes, in fact many times. My impression is that we can’t find the real Jesus or real salvation in physical ‘stuff’ such as the sacraments. We ought to worship Him in spirit and in truth. There is no religion or religious institution that can save your soul. As I’ve already pointed out, the CC sacraments are said to impart graces, but these graces are lost by mortal sin? Who can benefit from temporary forgiveness? How does that work? And what is there to get excited about in temporary gifts (graces) that fade into nothing in a very brief time?

I’ve examined my life of sin and my desperate need for my Savior. I need the SAVIOR Jesus of the bible who truly forgives sins and gives His sheep His own righteousness for free. With Jesus, I already have all that I need. I have no desire for worldly religious systems that impose their own legalistic spin on everything. The law has already condemned me very thoroughly. Why would I need further legalism? No, I need the loving and merciful Savior who will lose none of those that the Father has given to Him.

I just want to point out to you , Mick, that just because it sounds like a better deal to believe that Jesus will forgive all your sins no matter what you do, doesn’t make it true. This was Luther’s great deceit. He told all his followers that all they needed was faith and that they didn’t actually have to follow Jesus to be saved. He told them that sin didn’t matter and in fact, famously counselled one of his followers to sin boldly in the hopes of being saved anyway through faith in Jesus’ saving grace. The problem is, Sin does matter, and faith alone is not enough. You must cooperate with God’s will and lead a life of love and charity. And the sacraments were initiated for a reason: Jesus commanded them. Read John 3 and John 6 and Matthew 28, if you do not believe it So what you prefer is irrelevant. And as for Jesus not losing any of those the Father has given him. Of course he won’t lose them. But he will allow them to walk away if they don’t love him of their own free will.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

Yes, in fact many times. My impression is that we can’t find the real Jesus or real salvation in physical ‘stuff’ such as the sacraments. We ought to worship Him in spirit and in truth. There is no religion or religious institution that can save your soul. As I’ve already pointed out, the CC sacraments are said to impart graces, but these graces are lost by mortal sin? Who can benefit from temporary forgiveness? How does that work? And what is there to get excited about in temporary gifts (graces) that fade into nothing in a very brief time?

I’ve examined my life of sin and my desperate need for my Savior. I need the SAVIOR Jesus of the bible who truly forgives sins and gives His sheep His own righteousness for free. With Jesus, I already have all that I need. I have no desire for worldly religious systems that impose their own legalistic spin on everything. The law has already condemned me very thoroughly. Why would I need further legalism? No, I need the loving and merciful Savior who will lose none of those that the Father has given to Him.

Jesus used mud (i.e. ‘the physical stuff’) to cure blindness from a man. God Himself became fully man ( made of flesh i.e. ‘the physical stuff’ and an immortal soul) to save us. Why do you think God is opposed to ‘the physical stuff’ when He became fully human (and was still fully God) and used ‘the physical stuff’ to heal people and save the world?

Mortal sin is when the individual, with full knowledge, full consent sins; and this sin is of grave matter. Yes, the sacraments impart grace but it is up to the individual to respond to that unmerited grace. God is ready to heap unmerited graces upon us through the Sacraments and actual grace but unfortunately, the individual isn’t willing to respond.

My questions for you:

1. Why do you seek to sever the Bride (the Church) from the Bridegroom (Jesus)? In the Genesis, God said that man must cleave to his wife and they shall be one flesh. Is this impossible with the Church?
2. Why do you characterize the Church as legalistic? What do you think we actually teach on grace? Please use actual Church documents in the latter question.

In my opinion, you must assess the Church for what she really teaches, not what you believe the Church teaches.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Hi wisdomseeker,

I have never denied the church, the virgin Mary, the OT, or the sacraments. I have seen nothing in the bible that tells us anything about the existence of a papal office or a papal succession that started with the apostle Peter. Am I being unreasonable?

of course you have. you may not realize but that is exactly what you are doing right now. you cannot see nothing in the Bible because the Bible is not meant for people to see. the Church is the One who teaches us. she helps us see the Truth of our Lord.

“the Church of the Living God, the Pillar and Bullward of the Truth.” you can’t even see this.

you have no authority to know and enterpret Scriptures. once you realize this, things may start to change for you. dont be proud. seek the Truth with humility.

St. Peter speaks of the “unlearned and unstable” who “wrest” certain things in Scripture which are hard to understand.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Yes, in fact many times. My impression is that we can’t find the real Jesus or real salvation in physical ‘stuff’ such as the sacraments. We ought to worship Him in spirit and in truth. There is no religion or religious institution that can save your soul. As I’ve already pointed out, the CC sacraments are said to impart graces, but these graces are lost by mortal sin? Who can benefit from temporary forgiveness? How does that work? And what is there to get excited about in temporary gifts (graces) that fade into nothing in a very brief time?

I’ve examined my life of sin and my desperate need for my Savior. I need the SAVIOR Jesus of the bible who truly forgives sins and gives His sheep His own righteousness for free. With Jesus, I already have all that I need. I have no desire for worldly religious systems that impose their own legalistic spin on everything. The law has already condemned me very thoroughly. Why would I need further legalism? No, I need the loving and merciful Savior who will lose none of those that the Father has given to Him.

Based on what you said here. i think you are condemning what Jesus and the Apostles tought and did. becarefull my friend.

 

[Thecapz]

I think Jesus would dissaprove of the CC, imo.

Jesus was the kind of guy to hang out with the undesirables of society, reward charity, to really help people who needed.

The pope is almost the opposite to Jesus, they massively expensive churches in the Vatican. Spend way to much on ceremony robes and things like that. If Jesus were pope, that money would be going straight to the poor and needy.

What this is kind of saying is…can you be sure that the CC is the right one? If only one church is the viable way to salvation.

 

[paul_c]

Yes, in fact many times. My impression is that we can’t find the real Jesus or real salvation in physical ‘stuff’ such as the sacraments. We ought to worship Him in spirit and in truth. There is no religion or religious institution that can save your soul. As I’ve already pointed out, the CC sacraments are said to impart graces, but these graces are lost by mortal sin? Who can benefit from temporary forgiveness? How does that work? And what is there to get excited about in temporary gifts (graces) that fade into nothing in a very brief time?

Mick, the forgiveness isn’t temporary. when you are forgiven sin, it is forever. But it doens’t mean that you are forgiven for committing new, future sins. Sin is by definition, turning away from God. Why would Jesus look the other way if you continue to sin after your previous sins are forgiven. He will show mercy if you approach him sacramentally and ask for forgiveness again, but if you don’t and continue to journey away from God through further God, why would you expect to end up in Heaven?

I’ve examined my life of sin and my desperate need for my Savior. I need the SAVIOR Jesus of the bible who truly forgives sins and gives His sheep His own righteousness for free. With Jesus, I already have all that I need. I have no desire for worldly religious systems that impose their own legalistic spin on everything. The law has already condemned me very thoroughly. Why would I need further legalism? No, I need the loving and merciful Savior who will lose none of those that the Father has given to Him.

Do you realize how many “I’s” you have in this statement? Don’t you see that this is all about what you want and not what God wants? Those that enter into heaven will do so as servants of God, doing his will.

 

[paul_c]

I think Jesus would dissaprove of the CC, imo.

On what information is that opinion based? Do you really understand what the Catholic Church does and how?

Jesus was the kind of guy to hang out with the undesirables of society, reward charity, to really help people who needed.

Are you unaware that The Catholic Church is by far the largest philanthropic organization in the world. Have you not heard of Mother Teresa, who founded the Missionaries of Charity to minister to the poorest of the poor in Calcutta and now around the world. Are you unaware that virtually all Catholic religious work without pay and that Catholic priests work for about $10K/ year? Are you unaware of the Cahtolic school and hospital systems that take care of the poorest of the poor around the world?

The pope is almost the opposite to Jesus, they massively expensive churches in the Vatican. Spend way to much on ceremony robes and things like that. If Jesus were pope, that money would be going straight to the poor and needy.

This is an incorrect observation. Yes, the Catholic Church has beautiful churches and cathedrals, the thankful gift of parishioners over the years. But did you know that when Pope John Paul II died, his personal effects could be fit into a small cardboard box?

What this is kind of saying is…can you be sure that the CC is the right one? If only one church is the viable way to salvation.

The Catholic Church has continuity of doctrine and leadership back to the Apostles and was promised to have Christ’s support until the end of time. How else would it have survived and grown for 2000 years? Before you lash out at the Catholic Church, it might pay you to learn a little bit more about it.

 

[wisdomseeker]

I think Jesus would dissaprove of the CC, imo.

Jesus was the kind of guy to hang out with the undesirables of society, reward charity, to really help people who needed.

The pope is almost the opposite to Jesus, they massively expensive churches in the Vatican. Spend way to much on ceremony robes and things like that. If Jesus were pope, that money would be going straight to the poor and needy.

What this is kind of saying is…can you be sure that the CC is the right one? If only one church is the viable way to salvation.

YES. i can be sure. next question please.

 

[Mick_Taylor]

Jesus used mud (i.e. ‘the physical stuff’) to cure blindness from a man.

Hi Dancelittleewok,

Then next time you see a blind man, you ought to follow His example. Use some mud. If it worked when Jesus did it, then it might work if you do it.

God Himself became fully man ( made of flesh i.e. ‘the physical stuff’ and an immortal soul) to save us. Why do you think God is opposed to ‘the physical stuff’ when He became fully human (and was still fully God) and used ‘the physical stuff’ to heal people and save the world?

But He was still fully God! If you tried to die on a cross to save people from their sins, would you succeed? I doubt it! Salvation is a supernatural and permanent act of God. It cannot be lost. Do the sacraments save sinners? Not if salvation is forever. And salvation can’t be lost or else the word “saved” is really meaningless. It isn’t the sacraments that save us, it is the grace of God through faith in Jesus that justifies and saves sinners.

Mortal sin is when the individual, with full knowledge, full consent sins; and this sin is of grave matter. Yes, the sacraments impart grace but it is up to the individual to respond to that unmerited grace. God is ready to heap unmerited graces upon us through the Sacraments and actual grace but unfortunately, the individual isn’t willing to respond.

So you view salvation as something only for the righteous–those who are already good and willing? The bible disagrees with you. What about Saul on the road to Damascus, was he saved because he was already good, and willing, or did God cause Saul to become willing?

My questions for you:

1. Why do you seek to sever the Bride (the Church) from the Bridegroom (Jesus)? In the Genesis, God said that man must cleave to his wife and they shall be one flesh. Is this impossible with the Church?

I have never tried to sever the Bride (the Church) from the Bridegroom (Jesus). The bride of Christ worships Christ, not herself. A “church” that glorifies and worships itself cannot be the bride of Christ. Does this make sense?

1. Why do you characterize the Church as legalistic? What do you think we actually teach on grace? Please use actual Church documents in the latter question.

Your question seems to contain its own answer. You can be very sure that the Church (the CC) does indeed have lots and lots of documents. Why don’t you do a bit of research on the topic of mortal sin vs venial sin? Does your religion tell us how we can know which is which?

If that doesn’t answer your question (Why do you characterize the Church as legalistic?) do a research project on the topic of “invincible ignorance” and see if the CC has made that issue more clear or more complicated by its documents that refer to it. If, after doing these projects, you still don’t understand why I would view the CC as legalistic, then you might want to consider a career in law!

In my opinion, you must assess the Church for what she really teaches, not what you believe the Church teaches.

What is it specifically that I’ve gotten wrong about CC teaching?

 

[wisdomseeker]

=Mick Taylor;6145368]Hi Dancelittleewok,

Then next time you see a blind man, you ought to follow His example. Use some mud. If it worked when Jesus did it, then it might work if you do it.

Sarcasm noticed.

But He was still fully God! If you tried to die on a cross to save people from their sins, would you succeed? I doubt it! Salvation is a supernatural and permanent act of God. It cannot be lost. Do the sacraments save sinners? Not if salvation is forever. And salvation can’t be lost or else the word “saved” is really meaningless. It isn’t the sacraments that save us, it is the grace of God through faith in Jesus that justifies and saves sinners.

Sacraments are a sign of obedience to God. so if you dont believe them, you are in disobedience to Christ. that is what us Catholics are trying to tell you. i guess we have to spell out everything to you. explain bit by bit. whatever Jesus commanded His Church to teach it is of no small importance. protestants cannot have these Sacraments, so they discard as if it was meanless. nothing that comes from God is meanless to us Catholics, we take it very serious.

So you view salvation as something only for the righteous–those who are already good and willing? The bible disagrees with you. What about Saul on the road to Damascus, was he saved because he was already good, and willing, or did God cause Saul to become willing?

I have never tried to sever the Bride (the Church) from the Bridegroom (Jesus). The bride of Christ worships Christ, not herself. A “church” that glorifies and worships itself cannot be the bride of Christ. Does this make sense?

No it doesnt. you just dont have the understanding that we Catholics have about the Church.

Your question seems to contain its own answer. You can be very sure that the Church (the CC) does indeed have lots and lots of documents. Why don’t you do a bit of research on the topic of mortal sin vs venial sin? Does your religion tell us how we can know which is which?

Yes, she does.

If that doesn’t answer your question (Why do you characterize the Church as legalistic?) do a research project on the topic of “invincible ignorance” and see if the CC has made that issue more clear or more complicated by its documents that refer to it. If, after doing these projects, you still don’t understand why I would view the CC as legalistic, then you might want to consider a career in law!

What is it specifically that I’ve gotten wrong about CC teaching?

everything. since you dont believe the CC, you gotta everything wrong.

 

[Mick_Taylor]

Do you realize how many “I’s” you have in this statement? Don’t you see that this is all about what you want and not what God wants? Those that enter into heaven will do so as servants of God, doing his will.

Hi Paul,

I’m glad you brought this up! Salvation is, by its nature, always an individual personal relationship sort of thing. That is WHY individual Christians want to worship their (personal) SAVIOR rather than some impersonal religion or religious institution. The bride of Christ is completely devoted to Christ, and not to any religious organization.

Every individual person needs to have his/her own (personal) sins forgiven. It was God’s grace that brought ME (personally) to the conviction of my own (personal) sin, and my own (personal) need for Jesus as my (personal) Savior who (personally) came to earth and willingly took ALL of my (personal) sins away, and who bore ALL of my (personal) sins on Himself (personally) while He (personally) experienced the wrath of (the personal) God on the cross, for His (personal) eternal purpose of saving me (personally) from the consequences of my (personal) sin and rebellion against Him (personally).

The point of all these me’s, I’s, my’s, etc, is that if salvation is NOT a personal thing, and if it is instead, a very general and non-personal ‘churchy’ kind of thing, then people will want to worship their church (a far less personal entity) and not Jesus.

 

[paul_c]

Quote:Originally Posted by Dancelittleewok
Jesus used mud (i.e. ‘the physical stuff’) to cure blindness from a man

You know the point he was making was that Jesus took a physical action in healing the blind man, when he could have just willed him to see. Why do you think he did that?

Quote:Originally Posted by Dancelittleewok
God Himself became fully man ( made of flesh i.e. ‘the physical stuff’ and an immortal soul) to save us. Why do you think God is opposed to ‘the physical stuff’ when He became fully human (and was still fully God) and used ‘the physical stuff’ to heal people and save the world?

You are still hung up on getting a get out of hell free card. Well they don’t exist

Quote:Originally Posted by Dancelittleewok
Mortal sin is when the individual, with full knowledge, full consent sins; and this sin is of grave matter. Yes, the sacraments impart grace but it is up to the individual to respond to that unmerited grace. God is ready to heap unmerited graces upon us through the Sacraments and actual grace but unfortunately, the individual isn’t willing to respond.

Of course heaven is only for the righteous. Nothing unclean will enter heaven. Surely you know that from Revelations. Saul was a good man before his conversion. He was just misguided. I see lots of people like that.

Quote:Originally Posted by Dancelittleewok My questions for you:

1. Why do you seek to sever the Bride (the Church) from the Bridegroom (Jesus)? In the Genesis, God said that man must cleave to his wife and they shall be one flesh. Is this impossible with the Church?

The bride of Christ IS the church. Have you not read corinthians?

Quote:Originally Posted by Dancelittleewok 2) Why do you characterize the Church as legalistic? What do you think we actually teach on grace? Please use actual Church documents in the latter question.

The Church documents its positions clearly so that you might come to know the truth. If it is unclear to you, perhaps it is because you don’t like the answers.

Quote:Originally Posted by Dancelittleewok In my opinion, you must assess the Church for what she really teaches, not what you believe the Church teaches.

Frankly, Mick, mostly everything. You don’t understand that the essence of Catholicism is love.

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
Do you realize how many “I’s” you have in this statement? Don’t you see that this is all about what you want and not what God wants? Those that enter into heaven will do so as servants of God, doing his will.

The impression I get from all the I’s and me’s is that you want Jesus to serve you and free you from all your sins, past present and future, instead of the more natural situation where you serve God by doing his will. Look, if you want to really have a personal relationship with God, you must love him as he loves you. That means instead of looking for some heavenly reward, you should be looking to see what good works you can do to further his cause.

Catholics think about this SO much differently than you do. We look to serve God by serving others, not for God to serve us by giving us everything we want just because we believe that he wants to …

 

[Mick_Taylor]

Saul was a good man before his conversion. He was just misguided. I see lots of people like that.

What was so good about Saul before his conversion?

The bride of Christ IS the church. Have you not read corinthians?

Yes, I agree. The bride of Christ is the church. And the bride of Christ worships Christ only, and devotes itself to Christ, not to itself. Why do you find this so surprising?

The Church documents its positions clearly so that you might come to know the truth. If it is unclear to you, perhaps it is because you don’t like the answers.

Paul, can you explain what good it will do you to obtain forgiveness only for your PAST sins? I know about the “new slate” idea, but if you still continue to sin, how is it sufficient (for your salvation) to only obtain forgiveness of your PAST sins?

Frankly, Mick, mostly everything. You don’t understand that the essence of Catholicism is love.

If you mean, the essence of Catholicism is love for the Catholic church, then you don’t need to prove it to me; it has become perfectly evident. But the essence of the good news message (the gospel) is the finished work of Jesus, who willingly suffered and died for His sheep. And to be one of His sheep means that He (Jesus) is our shepherd. The Good Shepherd leads His sheep back to Him every time they stray too far away from Him. The Good Shepherd will lose none of those given to Him by the Father. Isn’t that great news?

 

[brb2]

But the essence of the good news message (the gospel) is the finished work of Jesus, who willingly suffered and died for His sheep. And to be one of His sheep means that He (Jesus) is our shepherd. The Good Shepherd leads His sheep back to Him every time they stray too far away from Him. The Good Shepherd will lose none of those given to Him by the Father. Isn’t that great news?

The Gospel of the Good Shepherd is twofold. Creating anew his sheep AND maintaining the flock. When Christ HEALED a sinner … he told them to “go and sin no more”.

How can one do this, apart from his Church sheepfold ? One of the purposes of the Church … is to keep one from straying. As the Church teaches … APART FROM THE CHURCH, THERE IS NO SALVATION.

One can be healed apart from the Church, but to persevere ‘free from sin’ [as part of the flock] … it takes the graces of Christ, thru his Church.

 

[paul_c]

Quote:Originally Posted by paul c
Saul was a good man before his conversion. He was just misguided. I see lots of people like that.

Paul was the most dedicated of pharisees, devoted to God with all his heart. He attacked the Catholic Church because he thought he was doing so in the service of God. What Jesus showed him on the Road to Damascus was that attacking God’s Church was attacking God. That insight changed him completely and led him to be the foremost evangelist in the Church. This same phenomenon happens all the time here. Many Protestants/ Evangelicals come on this website attacking the Catholic Church, thinking they are doin gso in service of God. In the end, many, if not the majority come to understand that Attacking the Catholic Church is attacking Jesus and they convert. Notice all the “swam the Tiber” comments on their signatures. Those are converts to the faith.

Quote:Originally Posted by paul c
The bride of Christ IS the church. Have you not read corinthians?

This is an inaccurate view of what Catholics are about. We don’t worship the church. We worship AS a church, We are the community of the Faithful, devoted to love of God and Neighbor and to spreading the Gospel.

Quote:Originally Posted by paul cThe Church documents its positions clearly so that you might come to know the truth. If it is unclear to you, perhaps it is because you don’t like the answers

Why do you need or even want forgiveness for sins you haven’t committed? Isn’t that a demotivator from trying to become holy? Wouldn’t a more loving attitude be to instead work to avoid sinning? And you know that if you fail and do sin, if you contritely and honestly seek to reform your life, then God will forgive you though the sacrament of reconciliation. why would you want to live in a world where sin doesn’t matter. Isn’t that what hell is? After all, in your theology, all that matters if belief… If you don’t believe, you are condemned to hell without regard to sin and if you do believe, you are saved without regard to sin. Hence, in your theology, Sin doesn’t matter to anyone. How can such a theology be real?

Quote:Originally Posted by paul c
Frankly, Mick, mostly everything. You don’t understand that the essence of Catholicism is love.

Sure, its great news. Unfortunately, its a distortion of the truth and one of Satan’s most effective tools. You see, Jesus won’t lose them, but he won’t stop them from leaving if they so choose. Take for example Judas Iscariot. He was one of the 12 apostles chosen personally by Jesus, yet Judas he betrayed Jesus, lost hope and committed suicide. If one of the 12 apostles, who walked in the footsteps of Jesus for three years and who healed in his name, could turn from him, so can anyone else. And I don’t think Jesus did anything to lose him. Judas made the decision completely on his own.

You see, this is Satan’s great deceit of the Protestant Reformation. He convinced the Reformers that Sin didn’t matter and that all you need is belief and that the church and its sacraments don’t matter. Now people think they are in service of God by simply believing and they don’t fulfill that belief through actions of love and charity torward others. In fact, some come to believe that doing Good works is actually a bad thing, because it cheapens Jesus’s sacrifice. The Devil is very, very savvvy. He has taken concepts which sound like serving Jesus, " Jesus will save you if you just have faith in him" and turned them into " You don’t need to do anything because Jesus has done everything for you on the Cross" , which demotivates people from doing God’s will and instead leaves them succeptible to sin, which is Satan’s goal, is it not?

Satan has also convinced many that the Church and Jesus are at odds and that Love of the Catholic Church is somehow a bad thing. He has made many believe that loving the Catholic Church takes away form Loving God as if it is unnatural to love two things that are aligned. Its like saying you can’t love your wife if you love your children. Do you think for a minute that Paul didn’t love the churches he founded, just as he loved Jesus?

Satan’s final deceit is to convince people that he doesnt exist, that hell doesn’t exist and that everyone goes to heaven. This takes away all motivation to do the will of God.

 

[Mick_Taylor]

Paul was the most dedicated of pharisees, devoted to God with all his heart.

I disagree. Saul, being a dedicated Pharisee, was totally devoted to his religion. He didn’t even know God. His devotion to his religion made him believe that he was justified in persecuting those who were rejecting his religion. In this sense, Saul wasn’t much different from a zealous Muslim today, or a zealous Catholic of the middle ages.

He attacked the Catholic Church because he thought he was doing so in the service of God.

Saul had been persecuting and assisting in the murdering of the early church, not the Catholic church. Remember that the church is the bride of Christ. The bride of Christ loves, adores, and devotes itself to Christ, not itself.

What Jesus showed him on the Road to Damascus was that attacking God’s Church was attacking God. That insight changed him completely and led him to be the foremost evangelist in the Church. This same phenomenon happens all the time here. Many Protestants/ Evangelicals come on this website attacking the Catholic Church, thinking they are doin gso in service of God. In the end, many, if not the majority come to understand that Attacking the Catholic Church is attacking Jesus and they convert. Notice all the “swam the Tiber” comments on their signatures. Those are converts to the faith.

And in your view “converts to the faith” are converts to your religion. It seems that your religion is what you love, just as Saul loved his religion prior to his conversion to Jesus Christ.

This is an inaccurate view of what Catholics are about. We don’t worship the church. We worship AS a church, We are the community of the Faithful, devoted to love of God and Neighbor and to spreading the Gospel.

Paul, you say that Catholics don’t worship their religion. Let me ask you a question. How would the Catholics here on CAF act and post any differently if THEY DID worship the CC?

Why do you need or even want forgiveness for sins you haven’t committed? Isn’t that a demotivator from trying to become holy? Wouldn’t a more loving attitude be to instead work to avoid sinning?

It doesn’t work that way with human nature. The sheep follow Jesus for a reason. They hear His voice and they trust in HIM. Having placed their faith in Him, they want to follow Him. Only those who trust that ALL of their sins have already been forgiven want to follow Him. The goats don’t experience the forgiveness of sins. They have no motivation to follow Him or to do the work that God approves of.

The most motivated servants are those who love their master. If their master is the Catholic church, they will be zealous in serving the CC. If their master is Jesus, they will be zealous in serving Jesus. Does this surprise you?

And you know that if you fail and do sin, if you contritely and honestly seek to reform your life, then God will forgive you though the sacrament of reconciliation. why would you want to live in a world where sin doesn’t matter. Isn’t that what hell is? After all, in your theology, all that matters if belief… If you don’t believe, you are condemned to hell without regard to sin and if you do believe, you are saved without regard to sin. Hence, in your theology, Sin doesn’t matter to anyone. How can such a theology be real?

It isn’t real. And it isn’t even close to what I believe. Sin matters. Good works matter. But the bible shows us that good fruit (good works) are the RESULT of a good tree. If God makes the bad tree good, then, like the apostle Paul, the works that result from the conversion will be good. In Catholic theology, it is as though they believe that bad trees become good trees by doing good works. But bad trees only produce bad fruit.

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
Paul was the most dedicated of pharisees, devoted to God with all his heart.

You slay me with this false dichotomy between loving religion and loving God. Religion is simply a word defining how we see God. Saul saw God differently (and incorrectly) before his conversion. That doesn’t mean that he loved God any less.

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Originally Posted by paul c He attacked the Catholic Church because he thought he was doing so in the service of God.

Why are you so hard over on this concept that you can’t love the church and love God? Do you love your children AND your wife? And the Early Church was the Catholic Church. There was no other.

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Originally Posted by paul c
What Jesus showed him on the Road to Damascus was that attacking God’s Church was attacking God. That insight changed him completely and led him to be the foremost evangelist in the Church. This same phenomenon happens all the time here. Many Protestants/ Evangelicals come on this website attacking the Catholic Church, thinking they are doin gso in service of God. In the end, many, if not the majority come to understand that Attacking the Catholic Church is attacking Jesus and they convert. Notice all the “swam the Tiber” comments on their signatures. Those are converts to the faith.

Converts to the faith are those that see God in a more complete light, with the fullness of Faith that comes from being a devout Catholic.

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Originally Posted by paul c
This is an inaccurate view of what Catholics are about. We don’t worship the church. We worship AS a church, We are the community of the Faithful, devoted to love of God and Neighbor and to spreading the Gospel.

How do you worship a religion? We love Jesus and we love the Church he founded. When we pray, we pray to the Trinity, we don’t pray to the Church.

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Originally Posted by paul c
Why do you need or even want forgiveness for sins you haven’t committed? Isn’t that a demotivator from trying to become holy? Wouldn’t a more loving attitude be to instead work to avoid sinning?

Are you really only willing to follow a God who will forgive all your sins, past, present and future?

The most motivated servants are those who love their master. If their master is the Catholic church, they will be zealous in serving the CC. If their master is Jesus, they will be zealous in serving Jesus. Does this surprise you?

You again are using this false dichotomy. We can love God and his church. How can you truly love God without loving the church he founded?

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Originally Posted by paul c :
And you know that if you fail and do sin, if you contritely and honestly seek to reform your life, then God will forgive you though the sacrament of reconciliation. why would you want to live in a world where sin doesn’t matter. Isn’t that what hell is? After all, in your theology, all that matters if belief… If you don’t believe, you are condemned to hell without regard to sin and if you do believe, you are saved without regard to sin. Hence, in your theology, Sin doesn’t matter to anyone. How can such a theology be real?

So if good works matter and good trees bear good fruit, how can you accept anyone who sins as being saved without the sacraments to free them of their sins?