Infinite Regress: the one pathway to salvation

[losh14]

if Jesus really meant to say that the Catholic church is the way, why did Jesus say that He is the only way?

Let’s overdefine for the sake of clearing it up.
When one argues ‘extra ecclesia’ - ie outside the Catholic Church, there is no salvation - what is it ABOUT the Catholic Church that makes it the depository of so much grace that it is the way by which Jesus desires us to be saved?

Look to the teachings, not necessarily to the ecclesiology. If you dress the priests in plain clothes, take away the statues and art, and reduce the form of worship to the simplest, you still retain the content and substance of that worship and the teachings on how to live in Christ. You, as a Christian (non-denominational perhaps?) may recognize the latter as ‘discipleship’. Catholics believe that salvation comes through Jesus Christ alone and is received via:

1. Having faith
2. Being Baptized
3. Professing Christ
4. Living in Christ
5. Receiving Christ in the Eucharist
6. Seeking forgiveness where one has sinned

Would you disagree with any of the above (save for 5, perhaps)?

We could break it down further. Ie, if we are saved by faith, what is the faith that saves? Catholic theologians generally reject “faith alone” because we define “faith” as mental assent that Jesus lived, died and was resurrected, that His promises will be kept and that His teachings are true. It is the first step for an adult seeking Christ for the first time.

Protestants often describe faith as more than mental assent - a living belief that compels one to follow, obey and live Jesus Christ day by day, hour by hour. If you believe in Christ, you believe in baptism, yes? If you believe in Christ, do you also believe in obeying Him and in living as He taught (and as you understand His teachings)? If you believe in Christ do you also turn to Him for forgiveness?

Then we can summarize 1 through 6 above for Catholics in non-Catholic Christian terms as:

Salvation is through a living faith in Jesus Christ, where that living faith compels obedience, worship, acts of charity and mercy in imitation of Him, receiving grace through the sacraments (as we understand that grace is sent and renewed) and living Christ over self day by day.

So there is one pathway to salvation through Jesus Christ. We, as Catholics, believe the Catholic Church teaches it most completely - indeed this is why we are Catholics. Some may argue (I won’t) that you cannot find Christ outside the Catholic Church, for I don’t believe God’s grace ends at the walls of the parish, but I believe it is most completely found within there.

I hope that helps to clarify for you. Please, keep asking.

 

[Mick_Taylor]

This is a perfect example of what you don’t understand about Catholic theology. Catholics don’t believe that they earn their way to heaven. They believe that Jesus makes heaven possible and that if you willingly cooperate with the graces he gives you, you can attain to heaven.

I understand Catholic theology quite well on this point. What does it mean, “if you willingly cooperate with the graces he gives you, you can attain to heaven.”? If that doesn’t mean earning our salvation by our own good works, then what does it mean? If you answer this question, you will probably still deny that Catholic theology entails earned salvation through our own efforts. But like your denial that many Catholics here at CAF worship their religion, your denial will lack credibility. Why deny what is so obvious?

 

[Mick_Taylor]

Let’s overdefine for the sake of clearing it up.
When one argues ‘extra ecclesia’ - ie outside the Catholic Church, there is no salvation - what is it ABOUT the Catholic Church that makes it the depository of so much grace that it is the way by which Jesus desires us to be saved?

Look to the teachings, not necessarily to the ecclesiology. If you dress the priests in plain clothes, take away the statues and art, and reduce the form of worship to the simplest, you still retain the content and substance of that worship and the teachings on how to live in Christ. You, as a Christian (non-denominational perhaps?) may recognize the latter as ‘discipleship’. Catholics believe that salvation comes through Jesus Christ alone and is received via:

1. Having faith
2. Being Baptized
3. Professing Christ
4. Living in Christ
5. Receiving Christ in the Eucharist
6. Seeking forgiveness where one has sinned

Would you disagree with any of the above (save for 5, perhaps)?

We could break it down further. Ie, if we are saved by faith, what is the faith that saves? Catholic theologians generally reject “faith alone” because we define “faith” as mental assent that Jesus lived, died and was resurrected, that His promises will be kept and that His teachings are true. It is the first step for an adult seeking Christ for the first time.

Protestants often describe faith as more than mental assent - a living belief that compels one to follow, obey and live Jesus Christ day by day, hour by hour. If you believe in Christ, you believe in baptism, yes? If you believe in Christ, do you also believe in obeying Him and in living as He taught (and as you understand His teachings)? If you believe in Christ do you also turn to Him for forgiveness?

Then we can summarize 1 through 6 above for Catholics in non-Catholic Christian terms as:

Salvation is through a living faith in Jesus Christ, where that living faith compels obedience, worship, acts of charity and mercy in imitation of Him, receiving grace through the sacraments (as we understand that grace is sent and renewed) and living Christ over self day by day.

So there is one pathway to salvation through Jesus Christ. We, as Catholics, believe the Catholic Church teaches it most completely - indeed this is why we are Catholics. Some may argue (I won’t) that you cannot find Christ outside the Catholic Church, for I don’t believe God’s grace ends at the walls of the parish, but I believe it is most completely found within there.

I hope that helps to clarify for you. Please, keep asking.

Hi losh,

I agree with most of what you’re saying here, but there are a few things I disagree with, and here is just one example:

what is it ABOUT the Catholic Church that makes it the depository of so much grace that it is the way by which Jesus desires us to be saved?

Even if we are evaluating the CC only on its teachings, there is no biblical justification for the belief that God has made the CC the depository of grace for our salvation.

 

[paul_c]

I understand Catholic theology quite well on this point. What does it mean, “if you willingly cooperate with the graces he gives you, you can attain to heaven.”? If that doesn’t mean earning our salvation by our own good works, then what does it mean? If you answer this question, you will probably still deny that Catholic theology entails earned salvation through our own efforts. But like your denial that many Catholics here at CAF worship their religion, your denial will lack credibility. Why deny what is so obvious?

You certainly don’t understand it if this is what you say. There is undeniable merit in cooperating with the graces given you. But that merit, on its own, is insufficient to gain heaven. You see, We NEED Jesus to get to heaven. We can’t do it on our own. But there is merit in what we do. And we are rewarded for our merits. But at the same time, we can not be proud before God, because without him, no matter how great our merits, they would be insufficient to merit Heaven. Besides, a devout Catholic is doing good works out of love for God and Neighbor and is not thinking about heaven. That will take care of itself.

You keep stating that Catholics worship our religion. Tell me one thing that you have observed that we do in this fashion that you don’t also do about your church. Substantiate your claims.

 

[paul_c]

Hi losh,

I agree with most of what you’re saying here, but there are a few things I disagree with, and here is just one example:

Even if we are evaluating the CC only on its teachings, there is no biblical justification for the belief that God has made the CC the depository of grace for our salvation.

This is just flat out wrong. The New testament is clear that he left Peter and the Apostles, (I.e, the Catholic Church ) in charge when he went back to heaven and gave them the keys to the kingdom (grace).

 

[losh14]

Maybe I can help on this point.

I understand Catholic theology quite well on this point. What does it mean, “if you willingly cooperate with the graces he gives you, you can attain to heaven.”?

The Calvinist perspective is that Grace is irresistible, so that faith flows as a natural consequence of election. The Catholic perspective is that grace can be resisted - once God elects someone, the response of faith (and hence of obedience) can be refused. For example, Stephen rebukes a group of Jews for refusing to respond to this grace in Acts 7:21.

The difference is between ‘earning’ salvation by good works and responding to salvation by actions that include good works. Without faith, salvation is not possible. I don’t need to show you the Scripture on this, but you may not know this is reflected in the Catechism as well (CCC paragraphs 161, 183 and others).

Likewise, if you don’t have faith, your good works amount to nothing. You cannot ‘work’ your way into Heaven - ie, you can’t say “Well, Jesus I’m a sinner but I did this thing and this thing and that tallies up pretty well against my sins.” That’s not cooperating with God, but rather trying to pre-empt God by skipping the salvation won for us by Christ and doing it yourself. That doesn’t get you to Heaven.

We believe that good works - acts of charity, mercy, piety, etc - are:

1. Evidence of faith
2. Prompted by faith
3. Meant to help witness and minister to others
4. A means through which we imitate Christ

Now, it’s hard in a theoretical sense to think of someone who believes the Gospel and tries to follow Christ without doing any good works - it takes a very hard heart to not want to give to others out of the gifts given to you, and a heart that is so hard towards humanity’s suffering is not likely open to Christ’s suffering. One who is called in Christ to a life of love but does not respond with love is one who rejects the Gospel. Note in Romans 2, Paul condemns those who harden their hearts towards one another - not those who refuse to believe in Christ, but rather who refuse to obey him. God will render to each according to his deeds (2:6):

2:7
to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

2:8
but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

This AFTER admonishing the believers in Rome to live by faith (1:17). A life of faith includes a life of good works - not for the sake of ‘earning’ salvation because it is a free gift, but for the sake of obedience to the One who saves.

I’m not talking about a piece by piece tally but rather a summary of how one lived one’s life. We see this in the parable of the sheep and the goats in Matt 25:31-46. We believe we will be judged according to our deeds - if we reject the commands of the Lord to serve Him in word and in deed, then we reject the faith that we profess.

To put it another way, if “faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself” (Ja 2:17) then what is faith accompanied by works? It is living faith, a true response and cooperation with the grace given to a believer. Why is a faith that lacks works dead? Those things we call works - acts of charity, piety and mercy - that show our faith, witness our faith, remind us of our faith, and lead us in imitating Christ, all of these FEED our faith. If you believe once and never think on Christ again, does your faith remain strong or does it starve?

 

[losh14]

Hi losh,
Even if we are evaluating the CC only on its teachings, there is no biblical justification for the belief that God has made the CC the depository of grace for our salvation.

How is grace to be administered after the Resurrection?

The actions of Christians as recorded in the Bible point out that they did not operate independently but rather worked together to:

• Preach, exhort and correct believers
• Collect food and other resources for the poor
• Raise funds for missions
• Communicate via letters and councils
• Ordain assistants (diaconos - English deacons) and elders (presbyteros - English priests)
• Promulgate rules for behavior and conduct during worship
• Define sound doctrine and rebuke false doctrine

This early Church was a continuation of Christ’s mission. It does not mean that a Christian, in isolation, having only the Bible, cannot be saved. It does mean that historically the isolated Christian has been the exception, rather than the rule. Especially in the early days, the majority of Christians worshipped under the direction of an overseer (episcopos - bishop in english) or an elder who was selected carefully for his conduct and learning in sound doctrine (we see instructions from Paul on this in the letters to Titus and Timothy) of Scripture and the teachings of the Apostles.

This organization of Christians working together in ministry is the depository of God’s grace. It is not the source - that is Jesus. We believe that the Church is the administrator of Grace that Christ has given the world.

So when I look for Biblical justification of how a church should be formed and how believers should relate, I don’t look for a passage that says “I want you to start something called the Catholic Church and it’s going to have a Pope and Cardinals and big churches.” I look for what the early Christians did, what those who succeeded after them did (we have the writings of the post-apostolic leaders back to the 1st century), and how that compares to the Catholic Church today.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

I understand Catholic theology quite well on this point. What does it mean, “if you willingly cooperate with the graces he gives you, you can attain to heaven.”? If that doesn’t mean earning our salvation by our own good works, then what does it mean? If you answer this question, you will probably still deny that Catholic theology entails earned salvation through our own efforts. But like your denial that many Catholics here at CAF worship their religion, your denial will lack credibility. Why deny what is so obvious?

Ah, the quacking duck defense, meaning if it quacks like a duck, it must be duck, but in reality Catholics are talking about a goose and by goose, we mean a mongoose, an entirely different animal. Catholics are proclaiming the Church, whom Scripture tells us, is the Body of Christ Himself. Catholics don’t cut the Bride from the Bridegroom or vice versa. Please substantiate your claim that we worship the Church; you said we’ve done so and given no evidence to back it up.

Catholics don’t believe God is legally obligated to give man eternal life for his works. Man, by himself, cannot legally obligate God to do anything. What pleases God? Faith. In faith, God has obligated man to believe everything revealed about Himself through Scripture and Sacred Tradition. God Himself gives man unmerited graces through the sacraments and actual graces but He has also given us a free will to either reunite his will with the Divine or not, to repent or not. God Himself has revealed that faith without works is dead (James 2:24) and that goods works done under His grace (meaning these good works are merited because it’s fitting and God has obligated Himself, not through strict merit or legal obligation) are a requirement to eternal life as per Romans 2:5-10.

 

[Mick_Taylor]

You certainly don’t understand it if this is what you say. There is undeniable merit in cooperating with the graces given you. But that merit, on its own, is insufficient to gain heaven. You see, We NEED Jesus to get to heaven. We can’t do it on our own. But there is merit in what we do. And we are rewarded for our merits. But at the same time, we can not be proud before God, because without him, no matter how great our merits, they would be insufficient to merit Heaven. Besides, a devout Catholic is doing good works out of love for God and Neighbor and is not thinking about heaven. That will take care of itself.

OK. Here is what you’re saying:

1. There is undeniable merit in cooperating with the graces given you. But that merit, on its own, is insufficient to gain heaven.
2. We NEED Jesus to get to heaven. We can’t do it on our own.
3. we are rewarded for our merits.
4. we can not be proud before God, because without him, no matter how great our merits, they would be insufficient to merit Heaven.
5. a devout Catholic is doing good works out of love for God and Neighbor and is not thinking about heaven.

Concerning our salvation, what do we need our good (cooperative) works for? Is it for obtaining merit? And if we obtain the merit via our cooperation–our good works, then we get the reward (heaven)?

 

[Mick_Taylor]

Maybe I can help on this point.

The Calvinist perspective is that Grace is irresistible, so that faith flows as a natural consequence of election. The Catholic perspective is that grace can be resisted - once God elects someone, the response of faith (and hence of obedience) can be refused. For example, Stephen rebukes a group of Jews for refusing to respond to this grace in Acts 7:21.

The difference is between ‘earning’ salvation by good works and responding to salvation by actions that include good works. Without faith, salvation is not possible. I don’t need to show you the Scripture on this, but you may not know this is reflected in the Catechism as well (CCC paragraphs 161, 183 and others).

Likewise, if you don’t have faith, your good works amount to nothing. You cannot ‘work’ your way into Heaven - ie, you can’t say “Well, Jesus I’m a sinner but I did this thing and this thing and that tallies up pretty well against my sins.” That’s not cooperating with God, but rather trying to pre-empt God by skipping the salvation won for us by Christ and doing it yourself. That doesn’t get you to Heaven.

We believe that good works - acts of charity, mercy, piety, etc - are:

1. Evidence of faith
2. Prompted by faith
3. Meant to help witness and minister to others
4. A means through which we imitate Christ

Now, it’s hard in a theoretical sense to think of someone who believes the Gospel and tries to follow Christ without doing any good works - it takes a very hard heart to not want to give to others out of the gifts given to you, and a heart that is so hard towards humanity’s suffering is not likely open to Christ’s suffering. One who is called in Christ to a life of love but does not respond with love is one who rejects the Gospel. Note in Romans 2, Paul condemns those who harden their hearts towards one another - not those who refuse to believe in Christ, but rather who refuse to obey him. God will render to each according to his deeds (2:6):

2:7
to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

2:8
but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

This AFTER admonishing the believers in Rome to live by faith (1:17). A life of faith includes a life of good works - not for the sake of ‘earning’ salvation because it is a free gift, but for the sake of obedience to the One who saves.

I’m not talking about a piece by piece tally but rather a summary of how one lived one’s life. We see this in the parable of the sheep and the goats in Matt 25:31-46. We believe we will be judged according to our deeds - if we reject the commands of the Lord to serve Him in word and in deed, then we reject the faith that we profess.

To put it another way, if “faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself” (Ja 2:17) then what is faith accompanied by works? It is living faith, a true response and cooperation with the grace given to a believer. Why is a faith that lacks works dead? Those things we call works - acts of charity, piety and mercy - that show our faith, witness our faith, remind us of our faith, and lead us in imitating Christ, all of these FEED our faith. If you believe once and never think on Christ again, does your faith remain strong or does it starve?

Hi losh,

I agree with nearly everything you’ve said. But this part was the main problem for me:

I’m not talking about a piece by piece tally but rather a summary of how one lived one’s life.

It seems to me that an accurate summary must entail a piece by piece tally of specific items. To put it another way, an accurate summary entails placing all of the good and all the evil stuff from one’s entire life on a balance so that the Judge (God) can weigh the cummulative good deeds vs the evil deeds and thus determine the summary. But is this biblical?

 

[paul_c]

OK. Here is what you’re saying:

1. There is undeniable merit in cooperating with the graces given you. But that merit, on its own, is insufficient to gain heaven.
2. We NEED Jesus to get to heaven. We can’t do it on our own.
3. we are rewarded for our merits.
4. we can not be proud before God, because without him, no matter how great our merits, they would be insufficient to merit Heaven.
5. a devout Catholic is doing good works out of love for God and Neighbor and is not thinking about heaven.

Concerning our salvation, what do we need our good (cooperative) works for? Is it for obtaining merit? And if we obtain the merit via our cooperation–our good works, then we get the reward (heaven)?

Good summary. Think about Matthew 25: 31-46. Jesus separates mankind into sheeps and goats. He gives the Sheep eternal life because they did works of mercy for their neighbors. He condemns the goats to hell because they failed to do so. So the reward IS heaven. Now the sheep weren’t just trying to earn their way to heaven. They were truly righteous and when told that they were being singled out because they had given Jesus food to eat, etc, they questioned him on when they did this. His answer, “When you did it for the least of my brothers.” To get to heaven, you need to be motivated by love, not greed (for heaven)

 

[Mick_Taylor]

Good summary. Think about Matthew 25: 31-46. Jesus separates mankind into sheeps and goats. He gives the Sheep eternal life because they did works of mercy for their neighbors. He condemns the goats to hell because they failed to do so. So the reward IS heaven. Now the sheep weren’t just trying to earn their way to heaven. They were truly righteous and when told that they were being singled out because they had given Jesus food to eat, etc, they questioned him on when they did this. His answer, “When you did it for the least of my brothers.” To get to heaven, you need to be motivated by love, not greed (for heaven)

Hi Paul,

Thanks for the clarification. If I understand the Catholic teaching, it is that we can merit the reward (eternal life in heaven) by doing good works, but only if we do such works with the correct motive, which is love. Is that about right?

 

[paul_c]

Hi Paul,

Thanks for the clarification. If I understand the Catholic teaching, it is that we can merit the reward (eternal life in heaven) by doing good works, but only if we do such works with the correct motive, which is love. Is that about right?

Yes, that is a good summary. If you are doing good works for a reward or for public aclaim, they will not help you get to heaven. But it you are doing them out of love, you are following in the Lord’s footsteps and progressing toward holiness. Love is the essence of God and also of Christianity.

 

[Mick_Taylor]

Yes, that is a good summary. If you are doing good works for a reward or for public aclaim, they will not help you get to heaven. But it you are doing them out of love, you are following in the Lord’s footsteps and progressing toward holiness. Love is the essence of God and also of Christianity.

How do selfish and sinful people become motivated (by love) to do the kinds of loving deeds for others that are meritorious to God?

 

[Dancelittleewok]

How do selfish and sinful people become motivated (by love) to do the kinds of loving deeds for others that are meritorious to God?

Grace. God gives us actual grace, this grace precedes our conversion and points us to repentance. We also receive sanctifying graces from the Sacraments to help us on our spiritual journey. But again, we need to cooperate with God in these. Example: God may grant a lustful man an actual grace, calling him to repent of his ways, to see Him in the Confessional but the lustful man may choose not to do so.

Does this answer your question?

 

[paul_c]

:
Originally Posted by Mick Taylor
How do selfish and sinful people become motivated (by love) to do the kinds of loving deeds for others that are meritorious to God?

So, Mick, to expand on this a little further, when we reach out to God and partake of the sacraments, he fills us with his Grace. This grace is the love of God within us. this is particularly easy to understand in the celebration of the mass with the eucharist. You see, when we eat his body and drink his blood, Jesus enters into us physically and spiritually and becomes a part of us. When we fully comprehend this, it leads us to love and that love is manifested in doing God’s will. This is why it is such an advantage to being a practicing Catholic: you get the graces associate with the sacraments and they lead you to love.

I would be remiss, however in pointing out that you do indeed need to cooperate with these graces. For instance , if you come to the eucharist unworthily, being outside the state of grace, and if you partake without ever thinking about the sacrifice Jesus is making for you, then you are not cooperating with Jesus and are far less likely to benefit from his grace. However, God is always calling us home and in his mercy we can be reconciled through the sacrament of reconciliation and regain his graces and start again on the path to heaven

 

[losh14]

I’m glad we’re fleshing this out, Mick. It helps to construct a verbal understanding around abstract concepts.

It seems to me that an accurate summary must entail a piece by piece tally of specific items. To put it another way, an accurate summary entails placing all of the good and all the evil stuff from one’s entire life on a balance so that the Judge (God) can weigh the cummulative good deeds vs the evil deeds and thus determine the summary.

Note I said an accurate summary, not an accounting summary. Perhaps I should have written ‘holistic’ or ‘whole’ summary of a person’s life. I do not argue for an accounting summary that posits every good against every evil and takes the net as balance. This approach was advocated by a group known to history as the Pelagians who argued that it was possible for man to attain salvation without divine intervention - ie without application of Christ’s Blood - by keeping the accounting balance to the positive. The Pelagian approach is false and was condemned as heresy around the 6th century by the Catholic Church.

The question is on what basis God judges us.
God will judge the heart (Heb 4:12) as well as the deeds (Mt 25:36, Jn 5:29, 2 Cor 5:10). These are not separate judgements, distinct from one another, but rather God sees us in the wholeness of the person, judging our life as a work (1 Pt 1:17). Because our life as a whole is judged, those who have faith are called to:

• Obedience, which includes
  • struggling against the temptation to sin (1 Pt 1:14, Mk 9:43-48)
  • as well as living in holiness (1 Pt 1:15, 2 Cor 7:1, Ti 3:1-3)
• Repentence (ie, the seven churches in Revelation, such as in Rev 2:5-6)
• Purity of doctrine - note Rev 2:18-29, the Church at Thyratira, whose faith the Lord notes but still condemns those who follow the false doctrines of Jezebel.
• To do good works for the reasons discussed above (1 Tim 6:18, Ti 2:7, 1 Pt 2:12, etc).

Let’s return to the original question: what is the difference between ‘earning’ salvation and cooperating with the Grace given one who believes? The difference is one of intent.

If you do good works for the purpose of weighing against sin, this is no different than Pelagianism and is condemned by the Catholic Church. Such good works count for nothing.

If you do good works for the sake of:

• Being strengthened in Christ (2 Th 2:16-17)
• Witnessing God’s goodness to others (1 Pt 2:12)
• learning reliance on God rather than on material wealth (1 Tim 6:18-19)
• Evidence of faith (Jn 3:21) and obedience (Rom 15:18)

Indeed, James juxtaposes good deeds (helping widows and orphans) against being stained by the world (Ja 1:27).

This is cooperating with the Grace given you. The Bible doesn’t phrase it in such terms, but neither does it phrase Trinity so succinctly. It is nonetheless a Scriptural reality that believers in Christ are called to a living faith.

We could turn the question around - if faith and works are intrinsically entwined, then what is faith without works? It is dead faith (Ja 2:17). What is faith with works? It is perfected faith (Ja 2:22).

To summarize, we as Catholics believe that Grace must be responded to in order to be accepted. We believe that to separate faith from works is a false bifurcation, that both must be present in a believer and if a person refuses to consent to one then the other loses its meaning.

Perhaps you do not agree with this reasoning and exegesis, but I hope this helps you see that we understand our position to be rooted in Scripture.

 

[losh14]

How do selfish and sinful people become motivated (by love) to do the kinds of loving deeds for others that are meritorious to God?

By Grace. God extends the Grace of Christ, and the Spirit convicts the heart and moves it constantly towards repentence and conversion to Christ. That Grace may be a purely internal dialogue (as when a selfish, sinful person finally looks inside) or may be an external one. I’ve experience both, perhaps an illustration would be helpful:

When I was younger I loved my booze and my women, as a dear friend used to tell me. It was a wicked and empty existence and it took time before I finally left that life for good. I thank God for His patience!

My friends Jim and Carrie and my priest (Fr. Kottonstete) acted upon me externally. Jim, my roommate, admonished me whenever I brought a girl home. Carrie likewise excoriated me for the way I’d act in public - once slapping me in the face at a party because of the way I was dancing with a girl I’d just met. I felt shame and reproach from these two, because I respected them and knew them to be Christians. My priest was a recovering alcoholic who expressed concern for me balanced with admonishments to be holy. He was a great person to confess to because he truly listened and he opened up about his alcoholism - the rage and the shame he felt, the peace he found in Christ, and the need to rely upon Christ to reform his life.

The ultimate conversion was internal. Now I already had faith in Christ, and I believed that He died for my sins and was resurrected, that He would return again, and that the teachings of Scripture were true. I went to Mass, I lived in obedience to Christ with the exception that I had not yet let go of the importance of sex and booze in my life.

One day I was at work and was suddenly cut to the heart thinking of my sins. It must have been divine, it was out of nowhere. I was working on a spreadsheet, for crying out loud, and it was thought that I had ever had. “I can’t do this and say I follow Him.” I held my head in my hands for a few minutes, thinking over everything I had done that was wrong and I gave myself to Christ. I had professed faith before, indeed I had faith and I feared Christ’s judgement, but that was the point I resolved to walk away from this life that was incompatible with my faith in Christ and walk with the Lord from that point on. I went home early, went to Confession, and spent a long time in prayer. I burned or threw out the pornography I had. I cut back significantly on my drinking (I still have a social drink once in a while, but it’s not an important part of my life anymore). And it was five years from that point until I had sex again - on my wedding night.

This was the response that the Lord wanted from me. I had faith but I had not let it sink into every part of me. I am not saying that His work in me is completed, but I changed my life for Him in accord with what I believed. I dropped my hypocrisy and flushed it out of my life. I found a living faith - and I don’t consider my faith to be alive because I do more good than bad but rather because I as a person try to follow Christ in all I do. He defines me and the way I live my life in a manner that I didn’t let Him before.

 

[paul_c]

By Grace. God extends the Grace of Christ, and the Spirit convicts the heart and moves it constantly towards repentence and conversion to Christ. That Grace may be a purely internal dialogue (as when a selfish, sinful person finally looks inside) or may be an external one. I’ve experience both, perhaps an illustration would be helpful:

When I was younger I loved my booze and my women, as a dear friend used to tell me. It was a wicked and empty existence and it took time before I finally left that life for good. I thank God for His patience!

My friends Jim and Carrie and my priest (Fr. Kottonstete) acted upon me externally. Jim, my roommate, admonished me whenever I brought a girl home. Carrie likewise excoriated me for the way I’d act in public - once slapping me in the face at a party because of the way I was dancing with a girl I’d just met. I felt shame and reproach from these two, because I respected them and knew them to be Christians. My priest was a recovering alcoholic who expressed concern for me balanced with admonishments to be holy. He was a great person to confess to because he truly listened and he opened up about his alcoholism - the rage and the shame he felt, the peace he found in Christ, and the need to rely upon Christ to reform his life.

The ultimate conversion was internal. Now I already had faith in Christ, and I believed that He died for my sins and was resurrected, that He would return again, and that the teachings of Scripture were true. I went to Mass, I lived in obedience to Christ with the exception that I had not yet let go of the importance of sex and booze in my life.

One day I was at work and was suddenly cut to the heart thinking of my sins. It must have been divine, it was out of nowhere. I was working on a spreadsheet, for crying out loud, and it was thought that I had ever had. “I can’t do this and say I follow Him.” I held my head in my hands for a few minutes, thinking over everything I had done that was wrong and I gave myself to Christ. I had professed faith before, indeed I had faith and I feared Christ’s judgement, but that was the point I resolved to walk away from this life that was incompatible with my faith in Christ and walk with the Lord from that point on. I went home early, went to Confession, and spent a long time in prayer. I burned or threw out the pornography I had. I cut back significantly on my drinking (I still have a social drink once in a while, but it’s not an important part of my life anymore). And it was five years from that point until I had sex again - on my wedding night.

This was the response that the Lord wanted from me. I had faith but I had not let it sink into every part of me. I am not saying that His work in me is completed, but I changed my life for Him in accord with what I believed. I dropped my hypocrisy and flushed it out of my life. I found a living faith - and I don’t consider my faith to be alive because I do more good than bad but rather because I as a person try to follow Christ in all I do. He defines me and the way I live my life in a manner that I didn’t let Him before.

Thank you for sharing. That was a powerful witness.

 

[Mick_Taylor]

I’m glad we’re fleshing this out, Mick. It helps to construct a verbal understanding around abstract concepts.

Hi losh,

Yes, this is all good!

Note I said an accurate summary, not an accounting summary. Perhaps I should have written ‘holistic’ or ‘whole’ summary of a person’s life. I do not argue for an accounting summary that posits every good against every evil and takes the net as balance. This approach was advocated by a group known to history as the Pelagians who argued that it was possible for man to attain salvation without divine intervention - ie without application of Christ’s Blood - by keeping the accounting balance to the positive. The Pelagian approach is false and was condemned as heresy around the 6th century by the Catholic Church.

I’m glad to see that you’ve rejected the Pelagian approach.

The question is on what basis God judges us.
God will judge the heart (Heb 4:12) as well as the deeds (Mt 25:36, Jn 5:29, 2 Cor 5:10). These are not separate judgements, distinct from one another, but rather God sees us in the wholeness of the person, judging our life as a work (1 Pt 1:17). Because our life as a whole is judged, those who have faith are called to:

• Obedience, which includes
  • struggling against the temptation to sin (1 Pt 1:14, Mk 9:43-48)
  • as well as living in holiness (1 Pt 1:15, 2 Cor 7:1, Ti 3:1-3)
• Repentence (ie, the seven churches in Revelation, such as in Rev 2:5-6)
• Purity of doctrine - note Rev 2:18-29, the Church at Thyratira, whose faith the Lord notes but still condemns those who follow the false doctrines of Jezebel.
• To do good works for the reasons discussed above (1 Tim 6:18, Ti 2:7, 1 Pt 2:12, etc).

Let’s return to the original question: what is the difference between ‘earning’ salvation and cooperating with the Grace given one who believes? The difference is one of intent.

If you do good works for the purpose of weighing against sin, this is no different than Pelagianism and is condemned by the Catholic Church. Such good works count for nothing.

If you do good works for the sake of:

• Being strengthened in Christ (2 Th 2:16-17)
• Witnessing God’s goodness to others (1 Pt 2:12)
• learning reliance on God rather than on material wealth (1 Tim 6:18-19)
• Evidence of faith (Jn 3:21) and obedience (Rom 15:18)

Indeed, James juxtaposes good deeds (helping widows and orphans) against being stained by the world (Ja 1:27).

This is cooperating with the Grace given you. The Bible doesn’t phrase it in such terms, but neither does it phrase Trinity so succinctly. It is nonetheless a Scriptural reality that believers in Christ are called to a living faith.

We could turn the question around - if faith and works are intrinsically entwined, then what is faith without works? It is dead faith (Ja 2:17). What is faith with works? It is perfected faith (Ja 2:22).

To summarize, we as Catholics believe that Grace must be responded to in order to be accepted.

This is the point where we differ. I don’t see any biblical concept of useless, wasted, or ineffectual grace. And if the grace needed for salvation is useless, wasted, or ineffectual grace every time the recipient refuses to cooperate with it, then salvation is only made POSSIBLE by what God does, but salvation is ACTUALLY the work of the saved individual who cooperates sufficiently with the graces given.

This is completely against the teachings of the bible, as well as my own experience in being converted without my own efforts and without my own cooperation, since, like Saul on the road to Damascus, I experienced sudden conversion without having searched for it and with no cooperation in the conversion itself. My conversion was truly a miracle and I believe that all conversions (to genuine faith in God) are miracles from God. There is no boasting in our salvation (Eph. 2:9) because we don’t DO anything to cause, assist, or cooperate in our own salvation. To put it another way, salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. We don’t bring ourselves to faith, it is God who causes His elect to begin to want what is truly good (God) and to become willing to believe in Jesus.

We believe that to separate faith from works is a false bifurcation, that both must be present in a believer and if a person refuses to consent to one then the other loses its meaning.

I agree. Where there is genuine saving faith, there will also be changed hearts and the good works that go along with a changed heart.

Perhaps you do not agree with this reasoning and exegesis, but I hope this helps you see that we understand our position to be rooted in Scripture.

Yes. We disagree on what I consider the critical point, but we can disagree without being disagreeable! It is a pleasure to discuss these things with you!