Infinite Regress: the one pathway to salvation

[Dancelittleewok]

You said it:

Hi Dancelittleewok,

Then next time you see a blind man, you ought to follow His example. Use some mud. If it worked when Jesus did it, then it might work if you do it.

You missed my point: Jesus, whom is fully God and man, used ‘physical stuff’ to heal a man. In your previous point, you characterized God as one whom was above such things. Care to address this term on why God (not me) would do such a thing if he was opposed to ‘physical stuff’?

But He was still fully God! If you tried to die on a cross to save people from their sins, would you succeed? I doubt it! Salvation is a supernatural and permanent act of God. It cannot be lost. Do the sacraments save sinners? Not if salvation is forever. And salvation can’t be lost or else the word “saved” is really meaningless. It isn’t the sacraments that save us, it is the grace of God through faith in Jesus that justifies and saves sinners.

You’ve failed to address my question: **God Himself became fully man ( made of flesh i.e. ‘the physical stuff’ and an immortal soul) to save us. Why do you think God is opposed to ‘the physical stuff’ when He became fully human (and was still fully God) and used ‘the physical stuff’ to heal people and save the world?
**
The difference here between you and Catholic is that we don’t believe in OSAS. For Catholics, salvation is a life-long process. God gives us many unmerited graces and it’s our choice to choose Him and accept these graces or be damned.

No, “saved” isn’t meaningless and sacraments, in themselves, do not save. Jesus really died, suffer and die upon the cross for us and rise again! I believe as you do, that a relationship with God saves and God is ready to heap grace upon a sinner but again, it’s our choice to accept His grace. As I said before, the sacraments impart grace (not in themselves) but through God’s power.

In light of your theology, can one lose salvation? What about free will? Me thinks “it is the grace of God through faith in Jesus that justifies and saves sinners” is your term for forensic justification.

So you view salvation as something only for the righteous–those who are already good and willing? The bible disagrees with you. What about Saul on the road to Damascus, was he saved because he was already good, and willing, or did God cause Saul to become willing?

No, man cannot by his own means save himself. God is necessary, but that doesn’t mean man cannot cooperate. God created us with a free will, wherein we can either say “I will not serve” like the devil or “Let it be done according to thy word” like Mary.
Nothing unclean will enter Heaven. We are not declare righteous but with our cooperation with God unmerited grace actually become inwardly righteous.

I have never tried to sever the Bride (the Church) from the Bridegroom (Jesus). The bride of Christ worships Christ, not herself. A “church” that glorifies and worships itself cannot be the bride of Christ. Does this make sense?

Straw man. Please show me a Church document that shows that we do this. Rather, it is your misconception that we do this. There is no God but God alone. This same God gave us the Church.

Can you answer this: ** In the Genesis, God said that man must cleave to his wife and they shall be one flesh. Is this impossible with the Church? **

Your question seems to contain its own answer. You can be very sure that the Church (the CC) does indeed have lots and lots of documents. Why don’t you do a bit of research on the topic of mortal sin vs venial sin? Does your religion tell us how we can know which is which?

You assume that you know more about Catholicism that I do. The reason we believe in mortal vs. venial sin because God has reveal it as so in the Bible and through the Church. You’ve failed to answer my question or provide any reason other than it has documents just like Protestant (the Bible and some cases creeds), Jews (Talmud and OT) and Muslim (Hadith and Qu’ran). By your broad definition, all these religions, including your own are legalistic.

If that doesn’t answer your question (Why do you characterize the Church as legalistic?) do a research project on the topic of “invincible ignorance” and see if the CC has made that issue more clear or more complicated by its documents that refer to it. If, after doing these projects, you still don’t understand why I would view the CC as legalistic, then you might want to consider a career in law!

What is your issue: That the Church has documents or your failure to understand them? I originally asked you to tell me the position on the Church on grace.

What is it specifically that I’ve gotten wrong about CC teaching?

Just about everything. Can you please tell me what’s legalistic?

 

[Mick_Taylor]

You slay me with this false dichotomy between loving religion and loving God.

It isn’t false. Violent radical Muslim extremists love their religion, do they not? It isn’t God that they love, they love the false god of their religion. Saul loved his religion and the god of his religion. But Saul didn’t know the real God when he was still deeply committed to his religion.

Religion is simply a word defining how we see God. Saul saw God differently (and incorrectly) before his conversion. That doesn’t mean that he loved God any less.

That is impossible. How could Saul have loved the real God when he didn’t yet KNOW Him?

Why are you so hard over on this concept that you can’t love the church and love God? Do you love your children AND your wife?

Do you remember the rich man in Mark chapter ten? He proved very nicely that it is possible, just as you say, to love Jesus and also love his money. But what would happen to the rich man if Jesus made the rich man choose between his money OR following Jesus? What then?

And the Early Church was the Catholic Church. There was no other.

There was no other? How did you come to know this?

Converts to the faith are those that see God in a more complete light, with the fullness of Faith that comes from being a devout Catholic.

That is only useful information to those who want the fullness of faith in your religion. It is of no interest to those who just want to follow Jesus.

How do you worship a religion? We love Jesus and we love the Church he founded. When we pray, we pray to the Trinity, we don’t pray to the Church.

Since when did that (who or what we pray to) become the standard for determining what a person worships? Did you just make that up?

Are you really only willing to follow a God who will forgive all your sins, past, present and future?

Yes. I’m a horrible and vile sinner. My sins thoroughly condemn me. I need complete forgiveness of ALL of my sins. So, I will only follow the One God of both justice AND mercy, who forgives ALL sins, past, present, and future, for everyone who, because of His wonderful grace, trusts in Him alone for salvation.

You again are using this false dichotomy. We can love God and his church. How can you truly love God without loving the church he founded?

I agree. You can, and you do, love a god AND a religion. So do lots of devout Muslims, Mormons, JW’s, and Jews.

So if good works matter and good trees bear good fruit, how can you accept anyone who sins as being saved without the sacraments to free them of their sins?

What makes you think that sacraments can free a person from their sins?

 

[Mick_Taylor]

You missed my point: Jesus, whom is fully God and man, used ‘physical stuff’ to heal a man. In your previous point, you characterized God as one whom was above such things. Care to address this term on why God (not me) would do such a thing if he was opposed to ‘physical stuff’?

It really doesn’t matter WHY God used physical stuff to heal a blind man. If we needed to know why, then the reason would be stated in the text. I never attempted to suggest that God is above such things. My point was that Jesus, and the forgiveness of our sins, can’t be found in physical things, such as sacraments. To place your faith in physical things such as sacraments, as the means of obtaining ‘saving graces’ is a form of idolatry.

You’ve failed to address my question: God Himself became fully man ( made of flesh i.e. ‘the physical stuff’ and an immortal soul) to save us. Why do you think God is opposed to ‘the physical stuff’ when He became fully human (and was still fully God) and used ‘the physical stuff’ to heal people and save the world?

I have never attempted to characterize God as being opposed to physical stuff. God is the One who created the physical stuff that exists. It is my belief that God is opposed to trusting in physical things such as the sacraments as our means of becoming holy and righteous.

The difference here between you and Catholic is that we don’t believe in OSAS. For Catholics, salvation is a life-long process.

Right. The difference is that you view salvation as a life-long works process, in which it is YOUR works that are all-important for your salvation. How does that honor the Savior? How is that consistent with the bible?

God gives us many unmerited graces and it’s our choice to choose Him and accept these graces or be damned.

What is it specifically about those who make the good choice that is different than those who make the bad choice? If “free will” is some sort of explanation for why some people end up in heaven while the others go to hell, please explain what it is specifically in the “free will” of those that make the good choice, that makes them choose the good and wise path, and not the bad and unwise path.

No, “saved” isn’t meaningless and sacraments, in themselves, do not save. Jesus really died, suffer and die upon the cross for us and rise again! I believe as you do, that a relationship with God saves and God is ready to heap grace upon a sinner but again, it’s our choice to accept His grace. As I said before, the sacraments impart grace (not in themselves) but through God’s power.

Are you saying that everyone who receives the sacraments is saved?

In light of your theology, can one lose salvation?

No. following the teaching of the bible, the word, “saved” (as in saved from hell) means that the condemned person has been supernaturally rescued from their just condemnation. The word “saved” in this sense becomes completely meaningless or unintelligible if “saved” people end up burning in hell.

What about free will?

I believe that Adam and Eve were created with free will. But in the fall, freedom of the will was lost, and all mankind was condemned by, and through, their sin.

Me thinks “it is the grace of God through faith in Jesus that justifies and saves sinners” is your term for forensic justification.

I do believe that justification by grace, through faith in Jesus is forensic justification.

No, man cannot by his own means save himself. God is necessary, but that doesn’t mean man cannot cooperate. God created us with a free will, wherein we can either say “I will not serve” like the devil or “Let it be done according to thy word” like Mary.

I disagree. It is our sinful nature that makes us unwilling to believe and unwilling to cooperate with God. All of us inherited our sinful nature through Adam. The reason why some people believe and cooperate with God’s will is that some people are chosen for God, by God, for His purposes. The reason why some people are hardened against God, is that some people are chosen to oppose God, by God, for His purposes.

Nothing unclean will enter Heaven. We are not declare righteous but with our cooperation with God unmerited grace actually become inwardly righteous.

I agree. Nothing unclean will enter heaven. In the next life, God’s sheep will have an incorruptible good nature. They will truly be inwardly righteous forever!

Straw man. Please show me a Church document that shows that we do this. Rather, it is your misconception that we do this. There is no God but God alone. This same God gave us the Church.

So, in your view, if there aren’t any CC documents that clearly state that Catholics worship their church, that, by itself, means no Catholics ever worship their church?

Can you answer this: In the Genesis, God said that man must cleave to his wife and they shall be one flesh. Is this impossible with the Church?

Yes. The church is a spiritual union of Christ and His sheep. A man and his wife can be one flesh in the physical sense, but a man and his relationship to the bride of Christ is an invisible spiritual thing.

You assume that you know more about Catholicism that I do. The reason we believe in mortal vs. venial sin because God has reveal it as so in the Bible and through the Church. You’ve failed to answer my question or provide any reason other than it has documents just like Protestant (the Bible and some cases creeds), Jews (Talmud and OT) and Muslim (Hadith and Qu’ran). By your broad definition, all these religions, including your own are legalistic.

Great point! I believe that all religions tend to be legalistic.

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
You slay me with this false dichotomy between loving religion and loving God.

You are very anti-religion. Don’t you realize that a religion in this usage is a community of people with common beliefs that help each other. Why do you think its superior to go it alone? As for different religions, all of them teach some of the truth, just not all of the truth. They share this in common with you. And yes, Saul didn’t understand God in the same way prior to his conversion, but that didn’t stop him from loving the God he knew. The same is true of you. Just because you don’t understand God fully right now, doesn’t mean that you don’t love him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
Religion is simply a word defining how we see God. Saul saw God differently (and incorrectly) before his conversion. That doesn’t mean that he loved God any less.

He loved the God he knew. Just like you. You will come to see God more clearly over time. That doesn’t invalidate the love you have for him now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by paul c Why are you so hard over on this concept that you can’t love the church and love God? Do you love your children AND your wife?

Yes, but loving God and his church do not require you to split your allegiance. You love God through his Church, not instead of his church. You just don’t get it right now. The Church is a community of believers helping each other understand God more fully. Loving those that help you find God does helps you love God more fully,not less fully…

Quote:

Originally Posted by paul c
And the Early Church was the Catholic Church. There was no other.

No other church can trace its lineage back to the Apostles. Read Eusebius’ " History of the Church" here: newadvent.org/fathers/2501.htm

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
Converts to the faith are those that see God in a more complete light, with the fullness of Faith that comes from being a devout Catholic

No, over time hopefully you will open up your mind and let go of the biases that keep you from joining us in our devotion to Jesus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
How do you worship a religion? We love Jesus and we love the Church he founded. When we pray, we pray to the Trinity, we don’t pray to the Church.

Isn’t it obvious that who you pray to is who you worship? Why do you require proof of that point?

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c Are you really only willing to follow a God who will forgive all your sins, past, present and future?

You want a God of mercy, but not one of Justice. You want a free pass to do whatever you want. There is no justice in that. If you want a relationship with Christ, it needs to go both ways. That’s how good relationships work. If all you want to do is take from him, that is not a healthy relationship, its what a parasite does.
If you really want a full relationship with Jesus, join the Catholic Church. And by the way, you know you can’t really choose the kind of God you want. God IS AS He IS and you must adapt to that. Not the other way around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c You again are using this false dichotomy. We can love God and his church. How can you truly love God without loving the church he founded?

Exactly. And that is not a bad thing. All of those religions teach many of the same truths that Catholicism teaches. They all teach love of God and neighbor. They unfortunately don’t see God with full clarity and they are severely limited by their separation from the sacraments, but if they are devout, they are at least progressing toward God. Is that really any different than you? Maybe you should try loving those that are different than you and at least try to understand them. Isn’t that what Jesus would do?

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
So if good works matter and good trees bear good fruit, how can you accept anyone who sins as being saved without the sacraments to free them of their sins?

You believe scripture don’t you? Here’s what Peter said to the converts on Pentacost in Acts 2: 38-29: 38
Peter (said) to them, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit. For the promise is made to you and to your children and to all those far off, whomever the Lord our God will call.”

And this is what Jesus says to the Apostles in John 20:21-23
(Jesus) said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”

Cease in your unbelief and believe.

And by the way, what about the first part of the question. If good works matter and good trees yield good fruit, and if no corrupt thing will enter heaven, how can you feel comfortable that you are guaranteed heaven if you know you are corrupt and therefore not a good tree?

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dancelittleewok
You missed my point: Jesus, whom is fully God and man, used ‘physical stuff’ to heal a man. In your previous point, you characterized God as one whom was above such things. Care to address this term on why God (not me) would do such a thing if he was opposed to ‘physical stuff’?

The Point is that when Jesus deals with us, he does so with physical signs so that we can comprehend them. To try to say that partaking of the sacraments is idolatry is blasphemous. Was it idolatry for Jesus to get baptized?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dancelittleewok You’ve failed to address my question: God Himself became fully man ( made of flesh i.e. ‘the physical stuff’ and an immortal soul) to save us. Why do you think God is opposed to ‘the physical stuff’ when He became fully human (and was still fully God) and used ‘the physical stuff’ to heal people and save the world?

You are contradicting yourself. You say that you aren’t characterizing God as opposed ot physical stuff and in the next sentence you say that he is opposed to physical things like the sacraments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dancelittleewok The difference here between you and Catholic is that we don’t believe in OSAS. For Catholics, salvation is a life-long process.

Following Jesus and doing his will honors the Savior and is doing exactly what he said to do when he exhorted us to “follow him”. Do you really think that doing Good works dishonors Jesus? Don’t you think he’s in favor of us loving God and neighbor?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dancelittleewok
God gives us many unmerited graces and it’s our choice to choose Him and accept these graces or be damned.

They are following the will of God through their consciences. That is why they make good choices.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dancelittleewok No, “saved” isn’t meaningless and sacraments, in themselves, do not save. Jesus really died, suffer and die upon the cross for us and rise again! I believe as you do, that a relationship with God saves and God is ready to heap grace upon a sinner but again, it’s our choice to accept His grace. As I said before, the sacraments impart grace (not in themselves) but through God’s power.

They are saved for that particular instance when they recieve the sacraments. That gives them a new beginning. Their entrance into heaven will depend on what they do with that new beginning going forward.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dancelittleewok
In light of your theology, can one lose salvation?

The word saved in scripture never means saved from future sin. In fact we are told to persevere in Good works to gain eternal life (Romans 2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dancelittleewok What about free will?

Do you really beleive that you no longer have freewill? Aren’t you aware of the choices you make every day? Are you really ready to blame every mistake you make on God?

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dancelittleewok Me thinks “it is the grace of God through faith in Jesus that justifies and saves sinners” is your term for forensic justification.

And if we truly believe, we will get baptized into his church, gaining the forgiveness of sins and sufficient graces to do the good works needed for heaven.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dancelittleewok

No, man cannot by his own means save himself. God is necessary, but that doesn’t mean man cannot cooperate. God created us with a free will, wherein we can either say “I will not serve” like the devil or “Let it be done according to thy word” like Mary.

You really believe in an unjust God? One that would condemn a man for no reason? One that would create man whose only potential is to suffer for all time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dancelittleewok Nothing unclean will enter Heaven. We are not declare righteous but with our cooperation with God unmerited grace actually become inwardly righteous.

So when, in your theology does this change occur. Isn’t it true that you think that no one is good on earth and at the same time, you don’t believe in Purgatory, where we will be cleansed? Have you thought this out at all?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dancelittleewok Straw man. Please show me a Church document that shows that we do this. Rather, it is your misconception that we do this. There is no God but God alone. This same God gave us the Church.

This is just your bias against religion. Let go of the hatred. We worship Jesus IN the church and AS a church.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dancelittleewok Can you answer this: In the Genesis, God said that man must cleave to his wife and they shall be one flesh. Is this impossible with the Church?

So now you are talking out of both sides of your mouth. You proclaim that Catholics worship their church and now you claim to be a part of an invisible church. Do you worship it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dancelittleewok You assume that you know more about Catholicism that I do. The reason we believe in mortal vs. venial sin because God has reveal it as so in the Bible and through the Church. You’ve failed to answer my question or provide any reason other than it has documents just like Protestant (the Bible and some cases creeds), Jews (Talmud and OT) and Muslim (Hadith and Qu’ran). By your broad definition, all these religions, including your own are legalistic.

Do you believe in the 10 commandments? Are they legalistic?

Mick,
I suggest you reevaluate why you are here. Is it to learn about Catholicism or to argue against it? If its to argue against it, you will still be more effective if you truly understand what you are arguing against. Your main point now seems to be Catholics worship their religion instead of Jesus. This is a completely unfounded point of view. Let go of that and start understanding what Catholicism is really about.

 

[Mick_Taylor]

You are very anti-religion. Don’t you realize that a religion in this usage is a community of people with common beliefs that help each other.

I realize that in comparison to you, I must seem very anti-religion. I’m not anti-religion, I’m anti-idol worship. at some point, the love of ones’ religion CAN cross an invisible line and start to become idol worship.

Why do you think its superior to go it alone?

Alone? I am not alone. I do go to church, and I do quite often, meet with others from my local church.

As for different religions, all of them teach some of the truth, just not all of the truth. They share this in common with you.

True.

And yes, Saul didn’t understand God in the same way prior to his conversion, but that didn’t stop him from loving the God he knew.

It is impossible for Saul to “know” a god that has never, and will never exist. The false god that Saul thought he knew was an imaginary god that approved of murdering those who reject the religion that Saul knew and loved.

The same is true of you. Just because you don’t understand God fully right now, doesn’t mean that you don’t love him.

True.

He loved the God he knew.

Saul loved the false god that he thought was real.

You will come to see God more clearly over time. That doesn’t invalidate the love you have for him now.

Good point. I agree.

Yes, but loving God and his church do not require you to split your allegiance.

I disagree. The real God is a jealous God. Therefore it is not a safe assumption that your love and devotion to your religion is pleasing to God.

You love God through his Church, not instead of his church. You just don’t get it right now. The Church is a community of believers helping each other understand God more fully. Loving those that help you find God does helps you love God more fully,not less fully.

It is possible for some people to love God who have never heard of the CC.

No other church can trace its lineage back to the Apostles. Read Eusebius’ " History of the Church" here: newadvent.org/fathers/2501.htm

This, of course assumes that the “lineage” is a papacy. How did you discover that the concept of a papacy was known or taught by the apostles? If the papal system is important, shouldn’t we find it described in the NT?

No, over time hopefully you will open up your mind and let go of the biases that keep you from joining us in our devotion to Jesus.

But you don’t show any sign of devotion to Jesus do you? When I read the posting of Catholics here, I see love and devotion to the Catholic church, not love and devotion to Jesus.

Isn’t it obvious that who you pray to is who you worship? Why do you require proof of that point?

Do Catholic sometimes pray to mother Mary?

You want a God of mercy, but not one of Justice.

I love His mercy and His justice, but it isn’t and wasn’t primarily His justice that draws me to Him. I’m a horrible sinner, and what I need is His mercy, and what I justly deserve is eternal torment in hell. Although His justice is perfect and awesome, His justice, in itself, would only condemn me. But thankfully, God is merciful to me!

You want a free pass to do whatever you want. There is no justice in that.

No, it is unbelievers who want a free pass to do as they want.

If you want a relationship with Christ, it needs to go both ways. That’s how good relationships work. If all you want to do is take from him, that is not a healthy relationship, its what a parasite does.

Then so be it. I’m not only a horrible sinner, I’m also a parasite. But I can live with that. I agree that the word “parasite” is rather fitting, because in terms of what saves me, I’m getting everything for free, and at great expense to the host, who has given His precious blood for me.

If you really want a full relationship with Jesus, join the Catholic Church.

And receive the good kind of sacraments! The kind that provide temporary graces for temporary forgiveness and lead to a temporary union with Jesus. Nope. No sale!

And by the way, you know you can’t really choose the kind of God you want. God IS AS He IS and you must adapt to that. Not the other way around.

This is very true.

Exactly. And that is not a bad thing. All of those religions teach many of the same truths that Catholicism teaches. They all teach love of God and neighbor. They unfortunately don’t see God with full clarity and they are severely limited by their separation from the sacraments, but if they are devout, they are at least progressing toward God.

I disagree. How is a devout Muslim person who loves Allah, “progressing toward God”? How was Saul, before his conversion, “progressing toward God”?

Is that really any different than you? Maybe you should try loving those that are different than you and at least try to understand them. Isn’t that what Jesus would do?

I do love those that are different than me. I do try to understand them. But loving a person sometimes involves telling the truth, at least the truth as best as I can discern it.

 

[paul_c]

Originally Posted by paul c
You are very anti-religion. Don’t you realize that a religion in this usage is a community of people with common beliefs that help each other.

Why do you think that Catholics cross this line but you don’t? You are succumbing to anti-catholic bias in describing catholic worship as idol worship. We worship the Trinity.

Originally Posted by paul c
Why do you think its superior to go it alone?

Then why are you constantly berating Catholics for loving their church. It sounds pretty hypocritical to me.

Originally Posted by paul c
As for different religions, all of them teach some of the truth, just not all of the truth. They share this in common with you.

Good. Common ground

Originally Posted by paul c And yes, Saul didn’t understand God in the same way prior to his conversion, but that didn’t stop him from loving the God he knew.

He worshiped the same God you worship. He just didn’t understand him fully. You are in no position to critique St. Paul’s knowledge or understanding of God at any point in his life.

Originally Posted by paul c The same is true of you. Just because you don’t understand God fully right now, doesn’t mean that you don’t love him.

So if you understand this, apply it to Saul’s situation prior to the road to Damascus.

Originally Posted by paul c He loved the God he knew.

No, he loved the one true God, he just didn’t understand God’s will fully, just as you and I don’t.

Originally Posted by paul c You will come to see God more clearly over time. That doesn’t invalidate the love you have for him now.

Just remember that when you judge St. Paul or other people who have other religious ideas.

Originally Posted by paul c Yes, but loving God and his church do not require you to split your allegiance.

God is not jealous of his church. He created his church to teach the truths of the Gospel and administer the sacraments. Read Matthew 28: 18-20 for starters.

Originally Posted by paul c You love God through his Church, not instead of his church. You just don’t get it right now. The Church is a community of believers helping each other understand God more fully. Loving those that help you find God does helps you love God more fully,not less fully.

Of course it is. That is exactly my point to you when you were criticizing people from other religions for loving a false God. My point is that those in communion with the Catholic church have the opportunity to understand God better than those that don’t because they have access to the complete fullness of truth passed down by the apostles.

Originally Posted by paul c
No other church can trace its lineage back to the Apostles. Read Eusebius’ " History of the Church" here: newadvent.org/fathers/2501.htm

Peter’s primacy is all over the New Testament. But the new Testament canon, by definition ends during the Apostolic age so does not include subsequent generations. Also, one of the strengths of the Catholic Church is its knowledge of God is not limited to what it in scripture but includes 2000 years of divine inspiration.

Originally Posted by paul c No, over time hopefully you will open up your mind and let go of the biases that keep you from joining us in our devotion to Jesus.

Now you are completely out of line. Do you know that many of the Catholic respondents here recieve Jesus daily in the Holy eucharist. Do you know that many spend an hour or more a week in Eucharistic Adoration, with their eyes on the Real presence of the Lord. Do you know that many of the Catholics here spend hours daily in prayer and inspirational reading including Scripture, commentaries and the lives of the Saints. To believe that Catholics aren’t devoted to Christ is both ignorant and biased. Try looking at other sections of CAF for a better understanding of that. Like Catholic Living or vocations or spirituality.

 

[paul_c]

Originally Posted by paul c
Isn’t it obvious that who you pray to is who you worship? Why do you require proof of that point?

Sure we pray to Mary to intercede for us with her son. Here is the most common Marian prayer:
Hail Mary, Full of Grace, the Lord is with You . Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the Hour of our Death Amen.

Originally Posted by paul c
You want a God of mercy, but not one of Justice

Read back what you wrote. You want a God of Mercy but you don’t what his justice because that would condemn you.

Originally Posted by paul c You want a free pass to do whatever you want. There is no justice in that

Be honest with yourself. You also want a free pass. You acknowledge that you are a horrible sinner and you talk like you aren’t making any real effort to change that, yet you expect God to accept you into heaven.

Originally Posted by paul c If you want a relationship with Christ, it needs to go both ways. That’s how good relationships work. If all you want to do is take from him, that is not a healthy relationship, its what a parasite does

Are you making any effort at all to reform your life and to avoid sin? Or are you just doing what you always did and expect God to accept you as you are?

Originally Posted by paul c If you really want a full relationship with Jesus, join the Catholic Church.

The graces cover everything you have done in the past and they are not temporary. When you are reborn, you need to actually reform yourself to lead the Christian life. Don’t you get that. And a new start is certainly better than no start at all, which is what you currently have.

Originally Posted by paul c And by the way, you know you can’t really choose the kind of God you want. God IS AS He IS and you must adapt to that. Not the other way around.

So stop trying to create a God that provides what you want and start trying to do what HE wants.

Originally Posted by paul c
Exactly. And that is not a bad thing. All of those religions teach many of the same truths that Catholicism teaches. They all teach love of God and neighbor. They unfortunately don’t see God with full clarity and they are severely limited by their separation from the sacraments, but if they are devout, they are at least progressing toward God.

A devout muslim tries to love God and neighbor, as did Saul before his conversion. The better they do this, the closer they come to God.

Originally Posted by paul c
Is that really any different than you? Maybe you should try loving those that are different than you and at least try to understand them. Isn’t that what Jesus would do?

Are you at all interested in becoming a better person and progressing toward holiness? Give that some real thought.

 

[Mick_Taylor]

And if we truly believe, we will get baptized into his church, gaining the forgiveness of sins and sufficient graces to do the good works needed for heaven.

If we can earn our way into heaven by doing good works, why was the suffering and death of Jesus necessary?

You really believe in an unjust God? One that would condemn a man for no reason?

No.

One that would create man whose only potential is to suffer for all time?

Yes. God created Pharaoh and Judas for HIS purposes. See (below) Rom. 9:14-24

What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ " Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

So when, in your theology does this change occur.

After we die.

Isn’t it true that you think that no one is good on earth and at the same time, you don’t believe in Purgatory, where we will be cleansed? Have you thought this out at all?

Where will we be cleansed? I don’t think God requires a physical PLACE for cleansing His adopted sons and daughters. Where did God go to create the universe?

This is just your bias against religion. Let go of the hatred. We worship Jesus IN the church and AS a church.

I’m seeing what certainly appears to be worship of a religion. That is the main impression that I’ve gotten from discussions here at CAF.

So now you are talking out of both sides of your mouth. You proclaim that Catholics worship their church and now you claim to be a part of an invisible church. Do you worship it?

No. I don’t worship any church.

Do you believe in the 10 commandments?

Yes.

Are they legalistic?

Yes. It is the nature of laws that they are a bit legalistic!

Mick,
I suggest you reevaluate why you are here. Is it to learn about Catholicism or to argue against it? If its to argue against it, you will still be more effective if you truly understand what you are arguing against. Your main point now seems to be Catholics worship their religion instead of Jesus. This is a completely unfounded point of view. Let go of that and start understanding what Catholicism is really about.

If you’re saying that I don’t understand WHAT the CC teaches, you need to point to something specific that I have gotten wrong about CC teaching. That would be a good start!

 

[Mick_Taylor]

Originally Posted by paul c
Isn’t it obvious that who you pray to is who you worship? Why do you require proof of that point?

I asked:

Do Catholics sometimes pray to mother Mary?

Sure we pray to Mary to intercede for us with her son.

 

[Mick_Taylor]

Read back what you wrote. You want a God of Mercy but you don’t what his justice because that would condemn you.

I was telling you that I think God’s justice is perfect and awesome. But what drew me to Jesus is His mercy, and not His justice. If I wished to get what I justly deserve I would go to hell for eternity. Why would I come to Him for that?

Be honest with yourself. You also want a free pass. You acknowledge that you are a horrible sinner and you talk like you aren’t making any real effort to change that, yet you expect God to accept you into heaven.

It isn’t MY EFFORT that will save my soul. But I certainly have changed, and I’m still changing, as I draw closer to God and seek to become more like Jesus.

Are you making any effort at all to reform your life and to avoid sin? Or are you just doing what you always did and expect God to accept you as you are?

By the grace of God, I’m still changing.

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
And if we truly believe, we will get baptized into his church, gaining the forgiveness of sins and sufficient graces to do the good works needed for heaven

This is a perfect example of what you don’t understand about Catholic theology. Catholics don’t believe that they earn their way to heaven. They believe that Jesus makes heaven possible and that if you willingly cooperate with the graces he gives you, you can attain to heaven.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c

What you said below suggest that you do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
One that would create man whose only potential is to suffer for all time?

You misunderstand these passages. It never says that Judas or Pharoah were condemned to hell. It says that God made him to display his power in. But Pharoah still had a choice. God knew what that choice would be, but he did not take away his free will.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
So when, in your theology does this change occur. Isn’t it true that you think that no one is good on earth and at the same time, you don’t believe in Purgatory, where we will be cleansed? Have you thought this out at all?

Where after we die. If all there is is heaven and hell, where does this occur? In heaven? how could that be if nothing impure enters heaven. In hell? how can you escape hell? there is a great chasm between heaven and hell, is there not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c

what makes you say that. You’ve said it over and over again without explanation. What makes you think we worship our religion any more than you do yours?

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
So now you are talking out of both sides of your mouth. You proclaim that Catholics worship their church and now you claim to be a part of an invisible church. Do you worship it?

neither do we.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
Mick,
I suggest you reevaluate why you are here. Is it to learn about Catholicism or to argue against it? If its to argue against it, you will still be more effective if you truly understand what you are arguing against. Your main point now seems to be Catholics worship their religion instead of Jesus. This is a completely unfounded point of view. Let go of that and start understanding what Catholicism is really about

I don’t even know where to start here. I’ve seen no indication that you understand anything about the Catholic church. Most of what you have said are strawmen put together by people who don’t have a clue about what the Catholic Church teaches and who have an interest in discrediting it. You have asserted that we are idol worshippers. You have asserted that we love our religion but not Jesus. You have tried to tie us to Muslims, Jews, Mormans and JW. You don’t recognize the historic role of the Church in the creation of the new testament. You think Catholics try to work their way to heaven. You think Catholics don’t have faith in the saving Power of Jesus . You certainly don’t have a clue as to why we value the sacraments or why we believe that you must cooperate with grace to go to heaven or why a simple declaration of faith is insufficient to gain entry into heaven. You can’t get beyond your stereotypes. Until you really want to learn about Catholicism, we can’t help you.

 

[paul_c]

I was telling you that I think God’s justice is perfect and awesome. But what drew me to Jesus is His mercy, and not His justice. If I wished to get what I justly deserve I would go to hell for eternity. Why would I come to Him for that?

Frankly, if you loved God with all your heart, you would attempt to do his will, right?

It isn’t MY EFFORT that will save my soul. But I certainly have changed, and I’m still changing, as I draw closer to God and seek to become more like Jesus…

Well, you are starting to acknowledge that you too have a role in this relationship. That is positive progress.

By the grace of God, I’m still changing.

Well, that’s very good news.

 

[Mick_Taylor]

He worshiped the same God you worship. He just didn’t understand him fully. You are in no position to critique St. Paul’s knowledge or understanding of God at any point in his life.

Hi Paul,

Is it possible that Saul “just didn’t understand him fully” because Saul didn’t know the real God? If Saul already knew God, how could he have been so wrong about the church? Are you now saying that a person can truly know God and be hostile to the bride of Christ?

I think you’ve missed the point. If Saul already had a relationship with God, but he “just didn’t understand him fully” then why did God miraculously intervene in Saul’s life? What need did Saul have for CONVERSION if Saul was already on the right path?

 

[Dancelittleewok]

Mick:

It really doesn’t matter WHY God used physical stuff to heal a blind man. If we needed to know why, then the reason would be stated in the text. I never attempted to suggest that God is above such things. My point was that Jesus, and the forgiveness of our sins, can’t be found in physical things, such as sacraments. To place your faith in physical things such as sacraments, as the means of obtaining ‘saving graces’ is a form of idolatry.

The sacraments, in themselves, cannot save us; it is God whom is acting through the sacraments, much like Jesus using mud to heal the blind man. What do you think about James 5:14-15?

I have never attempted to characterize God as being opposed to physical stuff. God is the One who created the physical stuff that exists. It is my belief that God is opposed to trusting in physical things such as the sacraments as our means of becoming holy and righteous.

I agree. My faith isn’t in the sacraments but the God whom decreed that the sacraments would be means to impart grace.

Right. The difference is that you view salvation as a life-long works process, in which it is YOUR works that are all-important for your salvation. How does that honor the Savior? How is that consistent with the bible?

Incorrect. We don’t believe that works alone save us or deny the need for a Savior or deny original sin. Pelagianism was condemned by the Church in two separate Councils. The Church doesn’t promote the very thing God has declared as heresy.

What is it specifically about those who make the good choice that is different than those who make the bad choice? If “free will” is some sort of explanation for why some people end up in heaven while the others go to hell, please explain what it is specifically in the “free will” of those that make the good choice, that makes them choose the good and wise path, and not the bad and unwise path.

Catholics believe one is damned for his rebellion against God. Man can say “thy will be done” or “I will not serve” but we, like Paul, believe that each man has the commandments of God written in his own heart. (See Romans 2:5-10). As I said before, we don’t believe man can make it to Heaven by himself hence why man needs God’s unmerited grace. Does this answer your question?

Are you saying that everyone who receives the sacraments is saved?

No. One may choose to act upon God’s graces or not found in the sacraments. The sacraments aren’t a ticket into heaven.

No. following the teaching of the bible, the word, “saved” (as in saved from hell) means that the condemned person has been supernaturally rescued from their just condemnation. The word “saved” in this sense becomes completely meaningless or unintelligible if “saved” people end up burning in hell.

Do you believe that you cannot fall away into sin and reject God? “Saved” indeed becomes meaningless if free will isn’t accounted for. Man falling into sin isn’t diminishing what God suffered and redeemed all upon the Cross but the sinner is diminishing his own salvation and damaging his nature. God said, “If you love me, keep my commandments.”

I

believe that Adam and Eve were created with free will. But in the fall, freedom of the will was lost, and all mankind was condemned by, and through, their sin.

God created us with an immortal soul and flesh. The facilities of the soul are intellect and free will. Catholic don’t believe that free will was lost. With the fall, mankind has a tendency towards evil. His free will and intellect are darkened but not lost. Humanity has the same choice that Adam and Eve did: follow God’s commandments or suffer the consequences.

Question: When Adam sinned, did he “unmake” God’s own creation?

I do believe that justification by grace, through faith in Jesus is forensic justification.

If total depravity is believed (mainly that mankind was so damaged by Adam’s sin that it no longer has a free will), then why would a declaration amend a will that has no choice but to sin?

Continued in next post…

 

[Dancelittleewok]

I disagree. It is our sinful nature that makes us unwilling to believe and unwilling to cooperate with God. All of us inherited our sinful nature through Adam. The reason why some people believe and cooperate with God’s will is that some people are chosen for God, by God, for His purposes. The reason why some people are hardened against God, is that some people are chosen to oppose God, by God, for His purposes.

Is God the author of sin if humanity has no choice but to sin except for the elect?

I agree. Nothing unclean will enter heaven. In the next life, God’s sheep will have an incorruptible good nature. They will truly be inwardly righteous forever!

Is it your belief that we are inwardly righteous automatically in Heaven or do you ascribe to the traditional Reformed view that this occurs in sanctification?

So, in your view, if there aren’t any CC documents that clearly state that Catholics worship their church, that, by itself, means no Catholics ever worship their church?

My point is that idolatry is a grave sin and has been condemned by the Church and if one was capable of this, it’s not a product of Church teaching. The culpability falls upon the sinner, not the Church whom has never promoted herself as anything to be worshiped like God.

Yes. The church is a spiritual union of Christ and His sheep. A man and his wife can be one flesh in the physical sense, but a man and his relationship to the bride of Christ is an invisible spiritual thing.

Yet Christ Himself is visible. Can the effect be greater than the cause? To answer your OP by borrowing an argument from Catholic author and Reformed convert Peter Kreeft, Christ Himself is one Body but what He did on the Cross was meant for all: He is particular and universal. Since Christ Himself and His Bride are one flesh, His Church is both particular is one Body and meant for all.

Great point! I believe that all religions tend to be legalistic.

You’ve failed to define religion aside from they all contain documents (including the Bible) so therefore they are legalistic. Do you mind defining “religion” and “legalism”? I believe I have an idea but I’d like to hear it from you.

Out of curiosity, where have you gotten your information about Catholicism?

 

[Dancelittleewok]

I asked: Do Catholics sometimes pray to mother Mary?

Perhaps this will help enlighten your understanding from the old Catholic Encyclopedia titled Christian worship:

The word worship (Saxon weorthscipe, “honour”; from worth, meaning “value”, “dignity”, “price”, and the termination, ship; Latin cultus) in its most general sense is homage paid to a person or a thing. In this sense we may speak of hero-worship, worship of the emperor, of demons, of the angels, even of relics, and especially of the Cross. This article will deal with Christian worship according to the following definition: homage paid to God, to Jesus Christ, to His saints, to the beings or even to the objects which have a special relation to God.
There are several degrees of this worship:

• if it is addressed directly to God, it is superior, absolute, supreme worship, or worship of adoration, or, according to the consecrated theological term, a worship of latria. This sovereign worship is due to God alone; addressed to a creature it would become idolatry.
• When worship is addressed only indirectly to God, that is, when its object is the veneration of martyrs, of angels, or of saints, it is a subordinate worship dependent on the first, and relative, in so far as it honours the creatures of God for their peculiar relations with Him; it is designated by theologians as the worship of dulia, a term denoting servitude, and implying, when used to signify our worship of distinguished servants of God, that their service to Him is their title to our veneration (cf. Chollet, loc. cit., col. 2407, and Bouquillon, Tractatus de virtute religionis, I, Bruges, 1880, 22 sq.).
• As the Blessed Virgin has a separate and absolutely supereminent rank among the saints, the worship paid to her is called hyperdulia (for the meaning and history of these terms see Suicer, Thesaurus ecclesiasticus, 1728).

Worship, to the Catholic, is used as homage one would give a King, Emperor, Queen or a Star Wars Princess i.e. Han Solo calling Leia “Your Worship.” Latria is used for God alone and you will see that Mary isn’t in that category. To latria worship Mary or any other saint, it would be idolatry and the gravest of sins for it against God Whom is Eternal and Infinite. Protestants don’t ascribe to the nuances in worship and only use latria so I can see why you might be confused, Mick.

In short, Catholic worship (honor) Mary and the saints for their examples and the graces God has given to them but the latria (highest honor) is reserved for God alone. To say that Catholics give Mary the same honor as we do God isn’t found in Church teaching.

Now back to your regular scheduled thread…

 

[paul_c]

Hi Paul,

Is it possible that Saul “just didn’t understand him fully” because Saul didn’t know the real God?

He knew the real God, the God of Abraham, as well as anyone of his age. But the Old Testament was limited and Saul had not yet been exposed to the New Testament.

If Saul already knew God, how could he have been so wrong about the church?

Don’t you see that I could ask you the very same question?

Are you now saying that a person can truly know God and be hostile to the bride of Christ?

Do you know God? You are very hostile to the Bride of Christ. What is YOUR answer to this question?

I think you’ve missed the point. If Saul already had a relationship with God, but he “just didn’t understand him fully” then why did God miraculously intervene in Saul’s life? What need did Saul have for CONVERSION if Saul was already on the right path?

I never said Saul was on the right path. He clearly was on the wrong path and needed to be redirected, hence the conversion sequence on the Road to Damascus. He still loved God in that he loved the truth and he understood the need to love God and Neighbor. He just didn’t understand that Jesus IS God. He thought that he was in the service of God by persecuting his church. Sound familiar?